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Vanada

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
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Location
Vancouver, Canada
Hey all,

I'm doing a lot of planning ahead of buying a cargo van for conversion and there are a few points which I could do with some external input on. Sorry if there's any overlap here but I've run in circles for a few days researching things and just need a nudge.

1) For the first year I will be based in Vancouver, BC where in winter particularly it's rainy and overcast a lot. Using this page I determined that 300W of solar would be a minimum requirement and that's just for a Dometic CF-50 fridge, laptop and roof fan. I know people get away with a lot less wattage but generally in better climates. Am I overdoing it?

2) Say I were to go for 300W of solar. Would it be better to get one big 300W panel or three separate 100W panels like in most kits?

3) Overall prices in the US aren't much cheaper but there does appear to be a better range online with companies like Renogy etc. Am I missing something here?

4) Since I'm worried about power consumption and wiring things then changing my mind, I thought about getting little battery powered push lights which I could move around and mount anywhere by varying means. Thoughts? Pros & cons?

That's all I have at the moment. Any help is greatly appreciated and will hopefully keep me from staying awake at night! :D 

Cheers,
Tom
 
Start with what fits on the roof. A single 300w panel will be easier to mount than 3 100w panels and likely cost much less. What won't cost less is the MPPT charge controller to run it. The 3 smaller panels can be run off of a much less expensive PWM controller.

Future upgrade with a 300w panel requires another like it and even bigger controller. Adding another 1 or 2 100w to the smaller panels is easy if the wiring and controller can take it.

I would suggest poly panels over mono in less than idea conditions and those are the conditions that MPPT is better on either set of panels.

Here I find the big panels on craiglist for a song. 300w run $220 right now. A MPPT controller to take it is around $150, wires coming down $35, which leaves the mounts, a switch, fuse and the heavier run to the batteries. $5-600 should be all it takes but it depends on what you find the panel for.
 
I've got a lot of respect for Jimindenver, but I'm going to disagree and make the case for multiple panels.  It's really very simple.  A dead branch falls on the roof of your van and damages a solar panel.  Would you rather:

A:  Have to hurriedly buy a new (expensive!) 300 watt panel because you now have 0 watts of solar power.

or

B:  Be able to take your time finding a new (cheaper!) 100 watt panel cause you still have 200 watts of solar power. 

To me, that's a no-brainer.  Redundancy is your friend!

Regards
John
 
Vanada said:
1) For the first year I will be based in Vancouver, BC where in winter particularly it's rainy and overcast a lot. Using this page I determined that 300W of solar would be a minimum requirement and that's just for a Dometic CF-50 fridge, laptop and roof fan. I know people get away with a lot less wattage but generally in better climates. Am I overdoing it?

Check with universities in Vancouver.  One of them might publish solar output info for the area.  Considered tilting your panel(s)?

What is your backup plan (generator, shore power, driving)?  I run similar stuff with 200W solar in Minnesota.   I get some output even on gloomy days.  Solar keeps batteries full (although the camper is used sporatically).  How much will the refrigerator run in the winter?   Mine does not need to run at all in winter (removing a huge draw on batteries).

2) Say I were to go for 300W of solar. Would it be better to get one big 300W panel or three separate 100W panels like in most kits?

I agree with OP.  3 X 100 watts gives redundancy and allows for configuring in serial or parallel for best results (also for adding more, as jimindenver suggests).  Downside is you will need bigger wiring to accommodate the lower voltage, higher amperage flow from panels to controller.

4) Since I'm worried about power consumption and wiring things then changing my mind, I thought about getting little battery powered push lights which I could move around and mount anywhere by varying means. Thoughts? Pros & cons?

I have a couple of those AAA battery powered LED push lights in my camper; very disappointed in light output.  I am very happy with the 12V LED lights.  Two of them lights up my camper very well.

Wire is cheap.  Set wires to all the places you think you will want to place lights before finishing the inside.

-- Spiff
 
With that single 300 watt solar panel you would most likely have to purchase a more expensive MPPT controller to handle the higher Volts that it puts out. It has to reduce the voltage down to 12 volts that match your 12 volt battery. With the three 100 watt panels you could keep them at 12 volts or use them as 24 volts and be able to buy a lower priced MPPT controller.
I bought a eco worthy MPPT controller and it works fine with my two 100 watt panels. it's only a 20 amp controller but if you wire three 100 watt panels for 24 volts it could handle the amperage. I only paid $64 for it on ebay and it was brand new from eco worthy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ECO-WORTHY-...501423?hash=item4af02476af:g:cHAAAOSwDNdV7Ibe
 
Thanks for all the rapid responses!

My instinct was to go right for an MPPT and bite the bullet early on based on the articles here.

jimindenver, it was my understanding that mono panels performed better than poly in low light. What would be the motivation for using poly?

Optimistic Paranoid, I can definitely see the logic in going for 3 x 100W as a means to strengthening the system. 300W panels just seemed less common and I had to wonder why. I understand now that it's more a matter of preference and planning.

Spaceman Spiff, that's excellent advice! I will check in with the universities and do some more diligent research rather than pure assumption. As for tilting I thought about it and maybe in the future but I'll start with stealth and see where it leads me. Backup would be the battery isolator and a shore connection wired in then see whether it gets used. Embarrassingly I hadn't thought about not using the fridge in winter. I imagine I'll want to keep the van warm for as long as I'm in it but equally the fridge could be demoted to a cooler potentially. I think I'll take your advice on the lighting and just wire it in.

Patd4u2, just saw your post and you have me sold. Big panels = big voltage = pain in the butt. I'll go for the 100W for sure. Cheers!

Jim's Craigslist suggestion does bring me to the question, does anyone recommend somewhere good and affordable to buy from? Craigslist can be great and I'll be using it a lot but it's obviously not as steady as a retailer might be. In turn that prompts; kit or no kit? I'd just rather not buy everything having done a bunch of research then find I spent more than I needed to for whatever reason. Equally I imagine no one wants to buy cheap and get garbage.

Ah, one more thing: Battery amp hours. My understanding is that there's no harm in going big rather than staying small and potentially stifling them. I was looking at getting a couple of these unless someone says otherwise. http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...-golf-cart-battery-0102000p.html#.VvKIoT8yfYM
 
GotSmart said:
One word on the large panels.  SHIPPING.  That runs the cost of the panel way up.  Most places will ship a smaller panel for free.  The big heavy bulky panels need a trucking company to ship them. 

12v led lights use almost no power.  

Buy a 12v distribution box to keep everything safe.  

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

Yet more reason to go for smaller panels. I've been using this build as my guide through the minefield somewhat but it's difficult coming in with no experience to know whether the information is good or not.
 
Vanada said:
Yet more reason to go for smaller panels. I've been using this build as my guide through the minefield somewhat but it's difficult coming in with no experience to know whether the information is good or not.

The build that you linked looks to be a solid starting point.   You could do a lot worse than putting together a system much like that.
 
Vanada said:
Yet more reason to go for smaller panels. I've been using this build as my guide through the minefield somewhat but it's difficult coming in with no experience to know whether the information is good or not.

What ever company you do decide to go with, ask if there is any way you can get a better price.  Perhaps open box?  (Returns with full warranty) You can also build custom packages at a discount.  If they will not work with you, move on to a company that will. 

Buy wire from a big box store.  You are guaranteed quality.  (Copper stranded only.) For my lighting I use speaker wire, as it has two wires together.  Less problem with running it.  Get a good crimper, and buy the ends by the large package.  You will always need more.  

NO HARBOR FREIGHT ELECTRICAL PARTS! 

Stick with quality.  You might spend an extra $40, but having no problems makes the investment priceless. 

Read the posts that STEARNWAKE has made on the subject.   :D
 
GotSmart said:
Buy wire from a big box store.  You are guaranteed quality.  (Copper stranded only.) 

I disagree.  Use automotive wire for mobile application.  Stranded wire for non-moving applications is stiffer (fewer strands, siffer jacket).  Greater chance of work hardening (breaking due to vibration). 

Get a good crimper.

Agree.  Will be using it a lot.  HD sells stripper/crimper combination tool that isn't too bad.

Stick with quality.  You might spend an extra $40, but having no problems makes the investment priceless. 

Blue Sea Systems makes high quality parts.  More expensive, but work as advertised.  I use their fuse box, cigar lighter sockets and USB sockets.

https://www.bluesea.com/#

-- Spiff
 
Regarding battery capacity vs solar wattage, it is entirely possible to have too much battery capacity for the amount of solar.

In a van dwelling scenario, where one discharges nightly, it is important to get the batteries to as high a state of charge as possible before the next discharge cycle begins late afternoon.

Batteries in the 80%+ charged range begin to limit what they can accept, making charging from 80% to 100% much less efficient than below 80% charged, which can be 99%+ efficient.

So if one has enough battery capacity that they remain above 80% charged almost always, it can be argued that they have too much battery capacity.

But lots of battery capacity = lots of warm and fuzzies, and bragging rights, though this can be a little misguided.

Battery manufacturers have charging rates recommended anywhere from 10% to 40% of the AH capacity, 10 amps to 40 amps per 100AH of capacity.  These assume one is plugging in a grid powered charger and has 8 to 12 hours or more to recharge fully.  100 solar watts = about 5 amps, at noon, on a good sunny day.

Solar amperage has a slow ramp up and peaks at solar noon and then tapers, so the textbook 10-13% rate trojan recommends is a bit out of Whack with reality concerning solar.

Generally the 1 watt to 1AH capacity is the absolute minimum one should employ, but AGM batteries would be much happier with a 2 to 1 ratio minimum.  If one utilizes the alternator to recharge, and does so in the morning, when batteries are most depleted, and can efficiently accept everything extra the alternator can make, then one can get by with less solar.

The Key to good to excellent battery longevity is achieving a true 100% recharge, ASAP, as often as possible.  Anything less, is a compromise to some degree.

The key to achieving a true 100% recharge is getting the battery upto the manufacturer recommended absorption voltage, compensated for battery temperature, and hold it for the proper amount of time.

The precise time at which absorption voltage needs to be held, varies greatly with the battery, its temperature, and its health, and how many cycles it has accumulated since its last true 100% full recharge.  A true 100% recharge on a flooded battery can be determined with a hydrometer.  On an AGM battery it can be determined by the amperage the battery accepts at absorption voltage.  When a 100AH agm battery can only accept 0.5amps at 14.4v, then it can be considered fully charged.  Flooded batteries are usually 2 to 3% of  battery capacity at absorption voltage.

I've seen my Northstar AGM take only 2 hours at absorption voltage for amps to taper to 0.05% of capacity, and I've seen it take 10 hours after a week in which it only got recharged back upto  90 to 95% each day.  10 hours at absorption voltage is not possible in my usage.  This requires being plugged in, or one night of NO battery discharge and 2 full days of solar.

So if all the above is confusing to you, the short version is, More solar is better.  Huge amounts of battery capacity and not enough solar to feed it might have the battery never quite reach a true 100% and its capacity might decline faster than less capacity cycled deeper, If the time at absorption is adequate.  But shallower cycles, assuming a full recharge often, = longer battery lifespan, so it is a catch-22.

Really it comes down the the amount of cycles achieved before battery capacity declines to the point where the user needs new batteries.  One can go to tremendous lengths and efforts to achieve the maximum cycle per$$ ratio, but they might spend more money on equipment to do so, defeating the goal, as replacing the batteries sooner is not really that big a deal, most of the time.  It is only when the batteries declining capacity comes as a huge surprise to the user that they freak out and usually blame the battery for what really is their own fault, as they trusted that soothing blinking green light and the marketers of their controller/charging source..

Carrying huge amounts of battery capacity is a lot of weight.  I once had 345AH total capacity, with only 130 watts of solar, and improper settings regarding absorption voltage and duration, and those batteries failed before 2 years,( first one shorted a cell at 13 months, being cycled shallowly.

I now have 198 watts of solar and only 90AH capacity total, and cycle much deeper, but do achieve absorption voltage and hold it as long as needed every cycle, and my 29 month old battery is still performing admirably, and I do work it hard.

But I utilize my alternator often for bulk charging. And I have a very capable grid powered charger too, and make use of that often too.

 'Bulk' is when the battery can take everything the charging source can give it.  When the battery voltage eventually rises to absorption voltage, the amount of amperage needed to hold absorption voltage declines, and continues to do so as this constant voltage phase is held.  When amperage at absorption voltage declines to a certain level, then the battery can be considered fully charged, and then, and only then, should the charging source lower voltage to 'float' levels.

Beware of premature float voltages.  Almost every automatic charging source/solar controller will revert to float voltage prematurely.

Most people assume that when their solar controller drops out of the absorption/acceptance stage of charging, this means the batteries are full.  This is entirely false!!  Dropping to float voltage means only that the controller held absorption voltage as long as it was programmed to do so.  In might have been long enough, but 90% of the time it is not, especially on a hard working deeply cycled battery.

Trust if you feel you must,  but confirm, with a hydrometer, or an Ammeter.  

A programmable solar controller will pay for itself with extended battery longevity, assuming one actually uses the ammeter or hydrometer to confirm that their allotted time at absorption voltage is adequate.  Hint, 2 hours is rarely enough on a deeply cycled battery!

It is much easier to achieve and then hold a lesser amount of battery capacity at absorption voltage, than it is a larger amount of capacity.

Many variables exist here, and much ignorance too. 

 Until the battery capacity declines to the point where it is noticeable to the casual user, everything appears 'just fine', and might be shouted from the hilltops in between chest thumps.  Reality can be much different.  The Lead acid battery (flooded/AGm or Gel) which gets 100% recharged nearly every cycle, can easily last twice as many total cycles as the battery recharged to only 95 to 98% each cycle.  

It is the time held at absorption voltage that determines this, and getting from 95% to 100%, can take many hours as charging in this range is very inefficient.  The less healthy the battery, the more cycles it has accumulated since the last ACTUAL 100% recharge, and the more time at absorption voltage is required.  So if the controller is set for 2 hours, and 5 hours was actually needed, the total battery capacity will decline much much more rapidly, yet it can still be many months before the user notices the underwhelming performance( voltage held under loading), and many will only notice when stuff simply no longer works.  At this point a hail mary true full recharge is usually attempted, but it is too little too late, and any possible regained capacity from an extended 'equalization charge' which is a forced overcharge' is short lived.

Another topic is the suitability of any particular battery for deep cycling.  Most every flooded/wet 12v battery that proudly states' deep cycle' on the side of it, is mocking anybody who believes it. Beware of marketing. With AGM there is more of a blurry line. Gels are too finicky in their charge parameters for a Newb to consider.

A pair of 6v golf cart batteries, wired in series for 12 volts, is simply the best bang for the buck.  Their ~230AH of capacity
is much easier to fully recharge, and more tolerant of less than perfect recharging, compared to 2 group 27 or 29 or 31 marine batteries in parallel for the same total capacity.  The only area where 12v flooded batteries will outperform 6v golf cart batteries, is under large inverter loads, such as when using a microwave, as the 12v batteries will hold a higher voltage for longer and not sound the low voltage alarm on the inverter, as they are more closely related to a starting battery than to a deep cycle battery.

Regarding interior lighting, 12v LED all the way.  I can't imagine buying disposable alkaline batteries or swapping out nimh or nicad rechargables every so often, unless one has no house battery and minimal charging abilities to begin with.

My best interior lights have been Automotive reverse lights in the t10 and t20 wedge type bases.  I get the brightest ones I can find and use a PWM dimmer to tone them down.  Some of these have been true junk though, too blue and too dim, but they have gotten much better as of late.

I want to try these next:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-White...&qid=1458842669&sr=1-7&keywords=t+10+phillips

I have these already:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-retro..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0R6BGCANXHQ7675BA1EH

But in the 4000k warm white color, not 6000K which is more of a cool white.  These are a few years old and not as good as newer offerings, but they produce the most lumens per watt of any LED I've utilized.  Much cheaper LEDs exist, I've not tried them all, but many I have tried have been underwhelming  and some are short lived.

I do make use of a nitecore hc50 headlamp which uses 18650 lithium cells, but rarely inside the Van.
 
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Buy wire from a big box store.  You are guaranteed quality.  (Copper stranded only.) [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I disagree.  Use automotive wire for mobile application.  Stranded wire for non-moving applications is stiffer (fewer strands, siffer jacket).  Greater chance of work hardening (breaking due to vibration). [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Sorry, I should have specified wire with a minimum of 19 strands.  The 7 strand wire is best for household use only.  (Thanks Spiff) [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The reason I recommended BB Stores is you can see and make sure of what you are getting.  I have read many complaints about people not getting what was clearly described in an online (Amazon) ad.  Auto parts stores usually charge a lot more for the same item. [/font]
 
I was checking out some 120 watt  12 volt panels on ebay. Going this route might be a better option for you and cheaper, unless you have your mind made up on three hundred total watts,
With two 120 watt panels it would be much easier to wire them in series for a 24 volt system and keep the amps with in the limits of a 20 amp MPPT controller.
Three 100 watt 12 volt panels will not work in series, has to be in parallel, series has to be a even number. 2, 4, 6, etc.

hope this helps you make a decision on your solar setup.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Panel...347351?hash=item1a09c97517:g:46IAAOSwAKxWUiMq
 
I did a quick search to build you your 300 watt system. Everything you need to get started, 3 100 watt 12 volt panels, 30 amp MPPT controller cables and adapters.
You will still need to purchase a DC/AC inverter, (Pure sine wave) and the cables to go from the MPPT to the battery and from the battery to your DC/AC inverter
Total estimated cost $533.56
a lot cheaper than ready made kits. 300 watt kit $987.99 do-it-yourself $533.56 = savings of $454.43

Hope this gives you an idea what you can do yourself with a little searching.


http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Bran..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0N23DSGYREQ27YTHPT1H

http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Doub..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=1WF4PM31V6TNC8Q4QXTP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-volt-dc-...648259?hash=item5665980203:g:hlYAAOSwHnFV2yUw

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B013HC9YLS?psc=1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3210A-30A-M...49baf90&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=262181180629
 
Patd4u2 said:
I did a quick search to build you your 300 watt system. Everything you need to get started, 3 100 watt 12 volt panels, 30 amp MPPT controller cables and adapters.
You will still need to purchase a DC/AC inverter, (Pure sine wave) and the cables to go from the MPPT to the battery and from the battery to your DC/AC inverter
Total estimated cost $533.56
a lot cheaper than ready made kits. 300 watt kit $987.99 do-it-yourself $533.56 = savings of $454.43

Hope this gives you an idea what you can do yourself with a little searching.


http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Bran..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0N23DSGYREQ27YTHPT1H

http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Doub..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=1WF4PM31V6TNC8Q4QXTP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-volt-dc-...648259?hash=item5665980203:g:hlYAAOSwHnFV2yUw

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B013HC9YLS?psc=1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3210A-30A-M...49baf90&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=262181180629

I looked up the MPPT controller as I was not familiar with that brand.

The only complaint I found was that the info sheet was not in French.   :)
 
There is no right or wrong, just a bunch of options. I do GT panels and MPPT because I can get them so inexpensive.

Solar panels are pretty tough. Should a branch big enough to really damage one hit your truck, you first thought will be that you are glad it's up there to take the damage.

On the mono vs poly thing, my testing is for grid tied panels only. At one time mono were considered more efficient in a grid tied system because they produced the same voltage and watts with a smaller footprint. Poly tech has advanced to the point that they use the same frame for both except at the 280w level when poly jumps a size up while mono doesn't until 300w.

Look at the specs of a mono panel and you will see it produces a higher voltage and lower amperage than the same sized poly. The thing is the lower amperage is its weakness in how we use it. A MPPT controller takes the amps out of the panel and then uses the excess voltage to create more amps. The slightly higher voltage isn't enough to make up for the lack of amps so the final output is less.

Grid tied panels are designed for use on a building where the system is tied into the grid. They dump power into it when time are good and you draw off of its unlimited battery when they are not. Both brands on mono panels I have had were designed for the good times knowing you were on the grid in the bad. They just don't hold their output in cloudy conditions like my polys do. It doesn't take much more than hazy clouds to cause the monos to take a noise dive while the polys drop their output more in accordance to how thick the clouds are. In fact my polys wake up before sun up and produce in pea soup. In those conditions the output of my monos wasn't reduced, it was nil.
 
A 300 watt panel will be less per watt than 100 watt panels and would be my first choice. However, what Gotsmart said is a deal-breaker for them--the cost of shipping. Unless you are somewhere you can pick it up locally then the cost of shipping kills your savings.
Bob
 
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