Sanity Check Please - Are my batteries dead?

[ldsreliance]

 In the mean time at least LOCK OUT THE MIDDLE battery terminal. Electrical tape or better. Preferably better. Preferably terminal work.

But make triple sure that the positive and negative terminal that remain unused are both very well insulated. Electric rated tape. The metal of either shouldn't be able to come into contact with the other OR ANY other conductive surface.

Haha.  Sounds like someone has shorted a battery cable before!  Definitely a memorable experience!

 

[XERTYX]

Haha.  Sounds like someone has shorted a battery cable before!  Definitely a memorable experience!

Oh yes. I have welded many a cable to a terminal before. Mostly when I was working with AGM marked SLA batteries as a matter of fact. Haha. Been shocked, burned, and damaged property along the way. Haha. Blue electrical fires are so pretty aren't they?!

 

[A_restless_development]

Well, victory was short lived.

After disconnecting the bad battery and driving for a combined 9 hours over two days, I wound up sleeping in 90 degrees so I figured I'd give my inverter and fan a shot. It had been reaching 14.3v charging and keeping 12.7 or more overnight with a DC vent fan and a fridge on and off all night so I felt good about it.

10.3v in the morning, best guess is they got damaged during all the deep discharges. IDK guys, I'll be doing more charging and testing of individual batteries, but at this point I'd like to bring it somewhere and have them double-check everything and just make it work or have the batteries replaced completely. Which is why I brought it to the RV place last month, but that didn't fix anything.

What kind of business would you bring a homemade solar/battery system to besides an RV shop?

Also considering taking the easy way out and getting a jackery type self-contained unit. Definitely burnt out on trial and error over the last month.

 

[XERTYX]

The inverter and fan... how many watts or Amps is the fan? How long did it run?

 

[A_restless_development]

The fan running off the inverter draws 4 amps, which makes sense because it is rated at 35 watts/110v. So 6 hours of that last night should make 24AH, and just to be generous I'll say the ceiling fan and fridge double that (they don't, draw is much less).

So even if I drew 50AH last night....shouldn't that be fine with 200AH capacity and not dump me under 12.2v?

 

[highdesertranger]

Driving 9 hours over 2 days is not going to bring dead batteries back. Your batteries need to get back to 100% and driving ain't going to do it unless you remove all the loads until they get to 100%. Driving for the day and then using the batteries overnight then driving again is NOT charging them for 2 days straight.

I have said it many times on this thread you need to get your batteries to 100% ASAP that's like yesterday. You have probably damaged your batteries. You need to get your batteries to 100% every cycle. not 99% but 100% each and every cycle. It's very hard, almost impossible to charge them to 100% by driving.

Highdesertranger

 

[A_restless_development]

So between driving and 300W of solar, that still isn't enough to replenish batteries in a solar setup for daily use? Or is your recommendation specifically because my batteries are being damaged.

I don't have options for plugging anything in, so whatever I've got needs to be able to run off the sun and the alternator.

If I make an appointment and bring van in to some shop that has a battery charger, they'll likely be able to get them to 100%. Assuming things aren't damaged beyond repair, will my solar and alternator be enough to keep things topped off then?

If things are damaged beyond repair and I replace the batteries (leaning strongly this way to start fresh), same question, will the system remain functional on solar and alternator (will be replacing the isolator with a b2b charger from victron)? I've met people running on setups very similar to mine so I can only assume my batteries are just toasted and would otherwise be working fine.

What kind of business would I bring this to in order to have someone diagnose and repair the system. I assume an Autozone won't work on home-installed wiring.

 

[highdesertranger]

At this point I would say yes you will need a plug in charger. Most auto parts stores offer free charging. But do they know how to correctly charge them is a whole different story.

As for, do I have enough charging? I don't know. If you posted your daily usage I don't remember. Remember if you take out X amount of power from your batteries you must return x+10% at least.

Lastly relying on alternator charging is a poor choice. Don't get me wrong having your alternator as a part of a complete system is fine but relying on it is not. It just takes way to long.

Most people way underestimate how long it takes to recharge their batteries. If your batteries were brought down to the 10v range they need to be on a charger for 12 hours at least.

Who can repair it? What general area are you in?

Highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

^^^ Reason many teachers don't get paid near enough, being a former one I know! Lol!!! Solar systems require you to do a lot of work and acquire an understanding of the basics or they will be damaged and not work properly. A portable power supply is no different than your batteries except hopefully it will not allow you to damage it by shutting off, although it still needs to be fully charged. If you can afford it, it will meet your needs and you can keep it charged great. I'm sure there are plenty of members here that can use your old components if they haven't been damaged too badly. If you are going to be in hot climates and may require air conditioning considering a generator or arranging to stay where you have access to grid power would be a good idea. Right now having either of those you could disconnect your batteries and use a 120 volt AC battery charger to bulk charge then hook the batteries back up without the loads to let the solar top them off. Driving using your alternator will help in that effort but not if you are still connected and using that power during the night, sort of like trying to fill a bucket with water that has a hole in the bottom. Batteries in the condition yours are apparently in need at least to be fully charged and rested then checked by someone like jimindenver who can deal with your system as well. He is a well respected member here and does this as a paid consultant. I would contact him and arrange to meet up.

 

[ldsreliance]

So between driving and 300W of solar, that still isn't enough to replenish batteries in a solar setup for daily use? Or is your recommendation specifically because my batteries are being damaged.

What kind of business would I bring this to in order to have someone diagnose and repair the system. I assume an Autozone won't work on home-installed wiring.

No, your alternator is not providing enough amps to charge that large of a battery bank in 9 hours.  And the 300W of solar is maybe 20A as well.  I posted in a previous post on page 3 in this thread that it will take you 18 hours to charge that battery bank from 0 to 100% with 20A.

I know you said you don't have an option for a plug in charge but it is either that or only discharge the battery bank 10-30% max per night.

Don't worry about someone looking at your wiring.  Just disconnect the batteries, let them sit for at least 12 hours, then take them to Autozone or Batteries Plus and have them test them.  We need to know if the batteries are shot or not.  Their battery testers will put the batteries under a load and see what happens.  You can't tell 100% for sure that a battery is good by its resting voltage.

 

[A_restless_development]

Currently heading north through California, near Fresno at the moment.

I didn't mean to sound like I relied on alternator charging, but for charging as quickly as possible I get much higher rates that way than with solar.

I 100% underestimated how long it takes to recharge these batteries.

Went back and checked, the isolator is not wired from positive to positive terminal, it's from positive starter bat to the positive bus bar. Looking to replace that with a b2b charger soon.

Currently I have 300w of panels wit a spot for a 4th 100w panel, it sounds like I should very much fill that spot.

I'd like to either restore these batteries or replace them all. Sounds like I'll need to visit a location and drop the batteries off for a day or two to have them all charged up properly if going the restore route. Might be faster and less of a headache to just replace them, though I don't want to be in the same situation with new batteries where I'm using more than I'm putting back.

For those of you with no shore power or generator, what does your system look like and what do you run off of it,? Just looking for context here.

I'll be reaching out to Jimindenver, it sounds like they might be located in Denver. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[ldsreliance]

If you end up replacing them you really should go with lithium batteries given your constraints.  Lithium batteries don't care about being short cycled and really only need to be charged to 100% about once a month or so to keep the BMS calibrated.  They will handle the abuse that you inflict upon it and keep going.

We are all speaking from experience here.  Don't feel bad for any of this.  Just trust that we don't want you to make more expensive mistakes.

 

[bullfrog]

Seems to be a communication problem here. Your batteries need to be charged fully and load tested. You are unable to do that. Pull out the batteries and take them to a Batteries Plus store and leave them to be charged and tested. Make arrangements to survive without them for at least a day by going to a full hookup campground or AirBnb. These things have to be done or you are wasting your and everyone's time and efforts. If you want questions answered about alternatives and are unable to determine your needs or use your system properly after reading the replies in this thread contact jimindenver and make an appointment to meet up. It is necessary to determine your power needs, everyone's power needs are different. Start reading threads on here and learn how or again contact jimindenver.

 

[abnorm]

"I'll be reaching out to Jimindenver, it sounds like they might be located in Denver"

No..........He's in Flagstaff

 

[A_restless_development]

OK, batteries are going to autozone this afternoon and will be charged overnight, meanwhile I'm looking at 200ah lithium batteries and the Victron Orion DC-DC charger. If anyone has opinions on which lithiums to go for, since there are a billion on amazon, I'm all ears. Would like to avoid the $1k/100ah options if possible (looking at you BattleBorn)

Bullfrog, not trying to waste anyone's time and I've been hearing Ranger's suggestions, those options were not available to me at the time.

Thanks abnorm, Flagstaff will be far easier to get to.

 

[XERTYX]

Head over to the Eco River thread. I literally JUST gave an example of what I can do with 1 100ah 12v lead acid battery to help the OP on that thread to get an idea of how to budget usage.

Lithium batteries if they're in the budget.... well. They're just better. They charge faster, weigh less, and cost 10x as much.. but they're great.

But even still with lithiums you're not gonna be running any particle accelerators or anything unless you put in what you're taking out.

 

[ldsreliance]

OK, batteries are going to autozone this afternoon and will be charged overnight, meanwhile I'm looking at 200ah lithium batteries and the Victron Orion DC-DC charger. If anyone has opinions on which lithiums to go for, since there are a billion on amazon, I'm all ears. Would like to avoid the $1k/100ah options if possible (looking at you BattleBorn)

Bullfrog, not trying to waste anyone's time and I've been hearing Ranger's suggestions, those options were not available to me at the time.

Thanks abnorm, Flagstaff will be far easier to get to.

If you want to take a look at what I have in my web store, I sell MillerTech lithium batteries and just started manufacturing my own (Jericho Battery Company).

Right now you can get my new 12V 100Ah lithium batteries that are normally $850 a piece for $675 each.  They are on par with BattleBorn but have more features (internal heater, bluetooth, COM ports, re-closeable case, etc.).  They also perform better in some areas, such as a 350A peak surge discharge for 3 seconds.  My batteries are made by the same company that makes LifeBlue batteries, so they have a really good reputation.

That is going to be the best value around.  If you need cheaper than that, but still reputable, look at the MillerTech Economy line.  The 12V 100Ah size goes for $575.  I have used the Economy series in my shed for a while and they perform just as well as the Premium series, just have slightly less quality cells internally so they won't last as many cycles.

 

[jasper]

I don't think anything has been said about monitoring alternator battery charging current. Nothing much has changed since about 1960 when Dad put pedal extensions on the tractor so I could operate it. The ammeter would fly way to the right after cranking up, then back down fairly rapidly before taking a looonnngg time to reach nearly zero, or full charge.

Vehicles had ammeters, too. Then later idiot lights, and now often voltmeters. Proper voltage shows the potential (possibility) for a battery to be charged, but amps tell the story.

Our typical group sized lead acid batteries will be fully charged when the charging amps fall to about 2 amps per battery when the charging voltage is showing upper fourteens. A load test will verify that.  I've load tested  with headlamps for decades. A steady decline down past low twelves is depressing.

The picture below shows the starting battery voltage and the house battery charging current. There is another voltmeter to the right that displays house battery voltage.

The Amazon link below is to some Hall Effect DC ammeters.  The Bayrite 100 amp is shown in the picture below. That ammeter will also show reverse current from the rooftop solar panels back to the starter battery when solar voltage exceeds vehicle charging voltage.  It is quick enough to see the blip of an overpass shadow.

Lithium has changed that long time lead acid knowledge.  Now I have to worry about overtaxing the alternator.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=hall+eff...effect+dc+,aps,162&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_15

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][/font]

 

[XERTYX]

Oh snap! I didnt know minivans had a flux capacitor!

J/K seriously.

I punked out on even installing dual voltmeters in my van. I bought enough crafting materials to build my solar and buried the rest of my stimulus money in a mayonnaise jar.

That's so groovy to see. And I can verify it. A glance at my CC and I see around 2.9 amps and up and down and back and forth. And boom. Somewhere around 15-20 something watts it stays till sundown.

 

[A_restless_development]

Ok, got results. 2 batteries charged to 100% but their machine told them they were bad and needed replacement, the guy said they would probably just discharge fully again. One battery wouldn't take a charge at all.

I currently have both batteries that did charge up sitting here not hooked to anything, over the course of a couple hours of resting they have remained at 12.9v and 13.0v. I left the third battery at autozone.

Im worried about my fridge, ill be getting a bag of ice to dump in there but sooner rather than later I need to hook these batteries up or buy new batteries. Considering getting a small jackery in the meantime to keep food cold and lights on.