Rust?

[riggyk]

I'm sure this has been touched on a million times but I've seen varying thoughts out there so was hoping for some clarification....

 - I recently pulled the trigger on a Chevy Express cargo van and it's got a few rust spots, nothing crazy, but enough to make me want to take care of them.... 

From talking to a few people and looking online I've seen a few different approaches but all relatively similar:

- Brushing via hand wire brush or hitting spots with the wire brush grinder: is one preferred over the other? Or is the wire grinder really only applicable for say, something that's to be covered up and inconspicuous (under mats or floor) and not body work? IE something like interior rust when doing a conversion?
 - Applying something like POR-15 to bring the metal to baseline
 - Painting

so my questions are:

 - For body work: minor spots randomly on the cargo doors and some more formidable along the lower guards... what's the best route there? I assume its just some brush/POR-15/Paint combo? 
Also for body: - What's a middle of the road (not cheapo but still quality) paint to make the body look decent after having brushed vs a lackluster spray paint saved for some of the interior?
 For interior: What's a suggested spray type paint to coat before converting?

 

[highdesertranger]

you must get the rust from both sides, you must get 100% of the rust or you are wasting your time. more then likely you are only seeing the tip of the ice berg. Por15 has an excellent reputation among restorers. but like I said you must get it all or it's just going to come back. highdesertranger

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

so my questions are:

 - For body work: minor spots randomly on the cargo doors and some more formidable along the lower guards... what's the best route there? I assume its just some brush/POR-15/Paint combo? 

You didn't specify if the rust is through or just surface.  For rust through you must prep and treat both sides.  For surface rust, wire brushing is OK, followed by a cleaner/degreaser, followed by a phosphate wash, followed by POR-15, followed by a special primer, followed by a finish coat.  Not simple, fast, cheap, or healthy.  POR-15 contains isocyanates, which will damage your lungs if breathed in.  Paint does not stick well to POR-15; must use a special primer or paint while still tacky.  POR-15 is OK uncovered but will chalk, no UV inhibitors.  I've used it on a number of custom car frames, driveline and suspension parts and it is tough as nails and does a good job of stopping rust.  You will need a fresh air breather system (not just a filter mask).  Can be brushed on or sprayed (spraying gives better coverage).

Also for body: - What's a middle of the road (not cheapo but still quality) paint to make the body look decent after having brushed vs a lackluster spray paint saved for some of the interior?

Automotive paints are getting ridiculously expensive.  Some guys I know are using bed liner on the lower parts of their vehicle (Glenn Morsette(?) of tosimplify.net painted his whole van with it).  Rattle cans don't seem to have durability.  Some WWII military restorers are using flat latex house paint because of the high cost of auto paints.  Rustoleum might work, never tried it as a finish on a vehicle.

 For interior: What's a suggested spray type paint to coat before converting?

If you use POR-15 in the interior, I would let it age for about a week (preferably longer and in the hot sun) before trying to live in it (isocyanite outgassing).  I would prefer you use something that doesn't outgas anything deadly.  Painting with a water based paint should be OK but not as durable.  An oil based paint (like Rustoleum) should work also, but know what the paint is outgassing before living in it.

 -- Spiff

 

[DannyB1954]

I live in the Southwest. We mostly have surface rust here. The sun cooks the paint off and the few times a year it does rain or has morning dew causes some rust on the outside. I clean off as much as I can with a red scotchbrite pad, then treat it with phosphoric acid, (sold at Home Depot in the paint dept), then rinse it off. When it is very dry I move it to shade and shoot a coat of rustoleum on it.

I used the silver hammer tone , and the can said primer was unnecessary. I figure it must be some pretty sticky stuff, otherwise they would also be trying to sell me their primer. I just recently did this, so I can't attest to longevity.

 

[riggyk]

OK.. So after reading a lot on POR-15 I've come to the conclusion that I'd just rather not mess with the stuff.... sounds like the risk reward and attention needed just doesn't balance out IMHO....

"You didn't specify if the rust is through or just surface. For rust through you must prep and treat both sides. For surface rust, wire brushing is OK, followed by a cleaner/degreaser, followed by a phosphate wash, followed by POR-15, followed by a special primer, followed by a finish coat. Not simple, fast, cheap, or healthy. "

The rust on the guard area is a combination of through/surface, so this would be moreso a concern to me. It looks like the past owner did a bit of a cover up but it's cracking and coming through a little bit. One of the guards has corroded a bit as well. Also a bit in the stepwell as well. - I'm thinking of the below protocol in terms of interior/body, let me know what you guys think and how to improve/adjust:

- Interior - 1) Simple green across the board. 2) Wire brush and potentially grinder at any problem spots 3) Would I need some kind of phosphate wash and de-greaser here? This will be covered with insulation and flooring will be put in..... So I assume the extent and severity of cargo floor rust dictates the need for a phosphate wash, but just curious as to whether those extra steps would be needed for something to be covered? 4) For sake of simplicity and cost for the cargo floor I think I'm just going to hit it with a rattle can of rustoleum

- Stepwells - These are a bit more rusty than I'd like so going to go similar to the body (but all surface here):
- Body - 1) Wire brush at topical areas, grinder at through areas. 2) De-Greaser/Cleaner (Any recommendations here? - Is it possible to get an all in one here or are these two separate products?) 3)Phosphoric Wash 4) Some kind of non Por 15 product with similar efficacy that's a bit safer? 4) Monstaliner 5) Potentally a metal kick guard

Last thoughts: 1) Has anyone used the Eastwood Chassis products? Opting out of Por-15 i've heard this mentioned quite a bit in forums as an alternative. - Though not exactly sure what specific product might be applicable to a white van nor it's place among steps in the whole process....

http://www.eastwood.com/paints/under-car-coatings/chassis-frame-paints.html

2) Would monstaliner look goofy patching up individual paint chip and rust spots and better left for a big streamlined area like the kick guards? - Or at this point is it best to just get it done and leave aesthetic to the side?

This help is all great guys, really.

 

[AltTransBikes]

What general part of the country did it come from, specifically I'm asking if the vehicle was exposed to road salt/treatment in the winter snow belt?

 

[riggyk]

What general part of the country did it come from, specifically I'm asking if the vehicle was exposed to road salt/treatment in the winter snow belt?

Ohio

 

[KASibson]

Ohio

That'd be a yes then to road salt.
Sounds like the a lot of the rusty bits are where we'd normally expect to see rust on an Ohio vehicle (lived in OH the first 37 years of my life), had my fair share of rust buckets for cars

Have you check the underside of the van as well?  That was always a danger zone for rust too.

 

[riggyk]

There were some rusted spots but nothing seismic. (I literally got down on my knees and crawled under a bit, hard to fully see but I'll have to get it on a rack.) I basically trusted the mechanic and said it needs to last for a few years, how's the rust? He said not bad at all. - So either he was full of shit and there's more to be had underneath, or I just need to confirm with another mechanic. Anyway, for now, hopefully somebody can help out re: a couple posts above. Thanks!

 

[steamjam1]

When I deal with rust on the outer skin of any vehicle, I use an 80-grit flapper wheel, then use a one part to three white vinegar to distilled water mix with a red scotch-bright to remove all remaining rust.

Then self etching primer, high build primer, sand and use touch up paint and do some blendy blending.

When doing rust on the chassis or the floor, I weld in panels.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

. . .

- Interior - 1) Simple green across the board. 2) Wire brush and potentially grinder at any problem spots 3) Would I need some kind of phosphate wash and de-greaser here? This will be covered with insulation and flooring will be put in..... So I assume the extent and severity of cargo floor rust dictates the need for a phosphate wash, but just curious as to whether those extra steps would be needed for something to be covered? 4) For sake of simplicity and cost for the cargo floor I think I'm just going to hit it with a rattle can of rustoleum

A flapper wheel, like Steamjam1 advised, would be a better choice than a grinder IMO.
I only use a phosphate wash with POR-15 (because they advise it); for non-POR-15 fixes I just use what Steamjam1 suggested: self etching primer on clean degreased, rust free metal, followed by a finish coat (primer is porous, it is used for bonding, the finish coat seals the primer).  For the floor I would suggest roll on bedliner instead of finish coat, unless outgassing is a problem.  You need to check the product data sheet.

- Stepwells - These are a bit more rusty than I'd like so going to go similar to the body (but all surface here):
- Body - 1) Wire brush at topical areas, grinder at through areas. 2) De-Greaser/Cleaner (Any recommendations here? - Is it possible to get an all in one here or are these two separate products?)

I use PPG Acrylic-clean DX 330 Wax and Grease Remover or similar.  Sometimes I just use lacquer thinner.  Again, this stuff is not good to breath; use outside and/or have a good fresh air breathing system.

3)Phosphoric Wash 4) Some kind of non Por 15 product with similar efficacy that's a bit safer?

The supposed reason POR-15 works so well is that it bonds with iron at the molecular level whereas paint only mechanically 'grips' the surface; so I do not know what else would work as well and yet be safer.  You need to check the product data sheets for any rust inhibiting/painting product you are going to use.  I can't stress this hard enough; it's your lungs.

4) Monstaliner 5) Potentally a metal kick guard

It is difficult to give good advice as to fixing rust without seeing the parts in question.  A lot of times the best solution is to cut the part out and weld in a new patch.

Last thoughts: 1) Has anyone used the Eastwood Chassis products?

Never used it.  

 -- Spiff

 

[riggyk]

I'm wondering if (given that I'll only be living in this for 1-2 years) it just makes sense to go oil based rustoleum vs chancing the interior with something like POR-15 or bed liner? Tough call.

Is the 80 grit flapper wheel seen here (http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnp...a1n6yKk3vKr1j39O6fZH98mtKTYjNzpf-RBoCRVHw_wcB) the same thing that would be best to take off the rust of the bed liner? 

Because I'm seeing "flap wheel" IE something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Angle-Grinder-Flap-Discs-Flat/dp/B0089F2OJI

Also would I need a separate kind of tool for the 80 grit type attachment vs say the one above that looks like it could attach to a grinder?

 

[highdesertranger]

they would both work. the one for the angle grinder will last longer and work faster. highdesertranger

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm wondering if (given that I'll only be living in this for 1-2 years) it just makes sense to go oil based rustoleum . . .

If you are only going to use this van for 1 to 2 years, I would go with quick and dirty.  Interior: unless it is rusted through just clean and paint/bedliner; if rusted through you need to at cover the holes (exhaust infiltration) some way.  Exterior: clean as best you can, bondo, paint, feather.  This depends on the rust not being too bad.

Is the 80 grit flapper wheel seen here  . . . the same thing that would be best to take off the rust of the bed liner?

If it is good bedliner, it will be very difficult to take off.  Why do you want to?  Also, bedliner will gum up the sandpaper, making it useless quickly.

Because I'm seeing "flap wheel" IE something like this: . . .
Also would I need a separate kind of tool for the 80 grit type attachment vs say the one above that looks like it could attach to a grinder?

I have and use both.  I prefer the disk type but both have their uses.  The disk I use with an angle grinder, the wheel I use with an inline air grinder.

 -- Spiff

 

[riggyk]

You the SpaceMan!

So yeah... 1-2 years... but it's tough because there's like 1 or 2 small spots in the van where there were rivet holes from the shelving and then one or two like 1-2 inch holes where the rivets had rusted on the edges and were a bit bigger.

I know a weld patch would be ideal but is fiberglass a good short term patch for a 1-2 year scenario? What about JB weld to just plug things up? -- I"ll have to send pictures here.

Basically I'm taking down the bedliner because the rust is surface, but relatively widespread, so over time once you start getting the rust off the baremetal underneath the paint, I could easily see taking the majority of it off. The rust is just kind of far reaching and I'd like it gone if I'm sleeping there. - How risky is going rustoleum roll on paint on the bedliner if I already wheel all the rust off? I'm just very cognoscente of breathing in creepy shit and don't want to jeopardize my health. 

The paint on the bedliner has been coming off super easy.. but then again it seems like the twisted wire wheel might be a bit heavy? - Anyway, will buy the disk type.. which would be similar to the second I posted, correct?

I think maybe I was being confusing but by bedliner I mean the paint and rust currently covering the cargo bed.

 

[riggyk]

So here's the extent of what we're dealing with given the rust:

You really think this can just be painted over? I'd clean/paint/maybe insulate/definitely subfloor/cheapfloor like vinyl etc. So it's going to be good and covered.....

Or best to still hit it with the grinder/plug/etc and just be smart?

 

[ArtW]

I'd sandblast, prime, and repaint, or if I didn't have a blaster, pay someone else to do it
A pressure washer will also get the rust out, but then you gotta get the floor dry poco tiempo
then slap a sheet of ply in there and cover with an area rug

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

You the SpaceMan!

So yeah... 1-2 years... but it's tough because there's like 1 or 2 small spots in the van where there were rivet holes from the shelving and then one or two like 1-2 inch holes where the rivets had rusted on the edges and were a bit bigger.

I know a weld patch would be ideal but is fiberglass a good short term patch for a 1-2 year scenario? What about JB weld to just plug things up? -- I"ll have to send pictures here.

If you're talking about only a few holes, none bigger than 2", I'd clean all the rust away from the holes and then cut a patch from thin metal - like an aluminum beer or soda can - a bit bigger than the hole.  Smear a thin coat of JB weld on one side and lay it over the hole.  Put a piece of wax paper over it and a weight on top of that until the epoxy sets.

Do this after you grind all the rust off and degrease the floor, but before you paint, and paint over the patches too.  Then put your piece of plywood down over everything.

 

[riggyk]

So what's the time/ROI scenario when it comes to sandblasting? I'm asking around if any friends "have a machine" or "have a guy" but a place just quoted me at $125 an hour or however long it would take pro-rated. - I get that this would save me the hassle of kneeling sweaty on the cargo floor grinding out every crevice of rust, but seems expensive for something I could do? It's alluring, but at the same time just curious if it would really get everything off?

 

[steamjam1]

Thats nothing. Id use an 80 grit flapper, then the vinegar mix, scrub, then reseals the seams using construction adhesive. (cheap, works better then auto sealant at 10th the price) Then either chassis saver, or por-15 if you gots the money.

As long as it looks nothing like this:
[img=226x127]http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ih1qtv.jpg[/img]

Youlll be fine.. :-D