RTR safety class/es

[Ella1]

Suggestion for any and every get together. Role playing.

A week or so ago there was a news article: http://www.kvoa.com/story/32802386/pcsd-arrests-2-in-connection-to-robberies-that-targeted-elderly . I had just seen the pepper spray video mentioned  in the SAFETY ON THE ROAD forum: https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Pretty-good-pepper-spray-tutorial and had dug out my small can of pepper spray. I had added a string tie to it, then left it home.  :huh:

I did a few errands, then stopped for gas at a station that I had used once before. This was about noon, on the corner of a major street, bright sunny day. My van was between me and the station, so I was not visible from inside the store.  I was trying to pump gas, but the nozzle kept quitting on me, and I was getting frustrated, not paying attention to what was going on behind me.
I was working to keep the gas flowing when I heard a voice behind me. I turned to see a tall young man-teenager-type, approaching, saying something. I was trying to pump gas, frustrated, and make sense of this stranger coming up behind me.

I said "WHAT!!"
He stopped several feet away and asked for a dollar and a half, he wanted to take the bus to downtown. I really should have screamed at him--get back! something, but I dug out the money and he did leave. I have since regretted my actions.  Rather than stopping what I was doing, I wish I had had the ATTITUDE --the PRACTICE--to yell at him.  
When I think of it now, I was vulnerable. I will never again park where I cannot be seen from inside the building, and I hope the next time there won't be a next time, but if there is, I can scream GET BACK GET AWAY whatever.

I think this kind of role playing would benefit all of us.
I'm elderly, and have NEVER in my life had that kind of experience.
Wish I had had it as a training experience.

Set up situations where one person is busy (or not) and approached from behind, and have the other defend him/herself by yelling, raising a small something to mimic the pepper spray.   Just to give practice on appropriate response. Maybe even have a volunteer or two go around to surprise others over the days for practice. THOSE people should have ID visible so there's no question that they are role playing...

Just having that practice may help save someone's life.



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[Almost There]

Set up situations where one person is busy (or not) and approached from behind, and have the other defend him/herself by yelling, raising a small something to mimic the pepper spray.   Just to give practice on appropriate response. Maybe even have a volunteer or two go around to surprise others over the days for practice. THOSE people should have ID visible so there's no question that they are role playing...

Just having that practice may help save someone's life.



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While it sounds like a good idea, I have to question whether it would work in a large group like we are at the RTR.

A discussion on safety on the road is always a good thing but having someone sneak up behind people to surprise them for practice might not work so well! For starters it wouldn't be but a small group willing to do practice runs so how do you keep track of which ones are in on it and which ones aren't?

My heart is in really good condition but I still don't take kindly to surprise attacks. I don't know if I'd have heart failure or my old bartending days would kick in and someone would have a black eye....

Maybe call your local police department or a womens' group and get advice on taking a professionally run self defense course.

 

[29chico]

Lots of good ideas here. 

However it is not a good idea to have someone skulking around surprising others, ID or not.  There is a reasonable chance that the volunteer who is surprising untrained folks will get hurt.  The chances of the one who surprises others getting hurt rises to a high probability if the person being surprised has had self defense training.

When the subconscious mind perceives a threat, the lower brain takes over and acts to protect itself.  For a short period of time the conscious mind absolutely cannot over ride this emergency response.  In that short time period folks can get hurt very badly...

 

[Hippiechk]

I must be missing something here??

A panhandling teenager who stopped several feet away when you had a gasoline nozzel (a truely formidable weapon indeed) already in your hand and asked for busfare made you feel afraid enough to want a 'better weapon & training on using it'?

I used to teach a women's self defence course at a University Women's Center & this wasn't a 'situation', if you didn't want to help the kid out, just say so.

As for role play as training. PLEASE do follow the suggestion already made & take a proper self defense course. They do set up role play situations. They will also beat to death the point that no matter what, be aware of your surroundings. Being startled does not make it okay to go on the attack.

Screaming at & threatening (holding up pepper spray is a threatening gesture) is not defense when you are only being spoken to, it makes you the aggressor.

 

[highdesertranger]

if someone tried to sneak up on me or my camp chances are they would get bit. it is NEVER a good idea to sneak up to someone's camp. the other suggestion about a class was good. highdesertranger

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I must be missing something here??

A panhandling teenager who stopped  several feet away when you had a gasoline nozzel (a truely formidable weapon indeed) already in your hand and asked for busfare made you feel afraid enough to want a 'better weapon & training on using it'?

Thanks for saying this, as I was going to say the same thing.  Had he wanted to get violent a shot of gasoline to the face would have ended that pretty quickly.

 

[GotSmart]

if someone tried to sneak up on me or my camp chances are they would get bit. 

And then your dog would attack!   :angel:


A class taught by professionals is a great idea.

 

[Headache]

When I think of it now, I was vulnerable.

I'm elderly, and have NEVER in my life had that kind of experience.

Ella I want to acknowledge and not invalidate your fear.  I'm sure it was very real to you in the moment.

I'd also like for you to look at your situation in an objective manner, as if you could play it like a video in your mind and watch yourself in third person:

1) Something in your thoughts was important enough to you that you were unable to choose to park in a manner in which you would have felt safer.
2) You became frustrated because you had issues with the pump and became hypersensitive.
3) Your only regret besides how you parked was that you didn't yell at someone.

I'd like you to focus on how your situation escalated due to not having the coping tools necessary to deal with whatever it was on your mind at the time.  Now the truth:

You were not vulnerable.  You completely controlled the entire situation.  It was a series of choices you made the entire time.

Being elderly isn't the issue.  Not being educated in how to handle whatever was frustrating you and clouding your judgement that day is the issue.  I'm going to guess that you've seen the videos of the lady that beat jewel thieves with her purse in England:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/07/woman-robbers-handbag

and recently in the news we have the "Iron Nun":

http://www.people.com/article/86-year-old-nun-in-nike-ad

My dad resigned himself to being old and feeble, and letting doctors flip out the prescription pad for every little ailment that cropped up.  It took me months to convince him he had the choice all along.  The realization that he had given up on himself came too late to save his life but in the time I had left with him he learned that age was just a number and he had the power all along to decide for himself whether he was going to be feeble that day or not.  You do as well.

You'll need to learn what triggers you and causes you to become hyper-vigilant and then you'll have to learn how to deal with that.  Sometimes it's as simple as taking the proper self defense courses as Hippiechk suggested.  There is a lot of power in her response to you.  You have the choice here in whether you are vulnerable or not.

You must make the choice to not allow being elderly to define how you deal with issues.  It has little to do with it.  Sadly we have a myriad of people we "trust" from healthcare workers to even our own family members convincing our elderly that they are probably ready to collect dust rather than living a fulfilling life unbound by falsely created geriatric issues.

Don't let age, frustration or anyone else tell you what to do.  The cards have always been in your hands, we just forget that sometimes.

 

[cyndi]

I freeze when confronted. But I regroup pretty quickly. And my dog is the one that wakes me up/
Role playing is an excellent way to get comfortable with a behavior that is foriegn to one's normal behaviorand develop skills to deal with confrontations.. This could be a worthwhile add-on to the women's group meetings.
Ella? will you be at the RTR this year? Hopefully you can remind us

 

[Suanne]

... This could be a worthwhile add-on to the women's group meetings...

I was thinking the same Cyndi.  Worth looking into ...

I've got a lead I'll follow up on and do some research.

Safety and self-defense has been a side topic in the past women's groups, it could be worth making it more of a focus.

I just don't want us to forget that violent crime in the back country is much less likely to happen than in town.

 

[Ella1]

While it sounds like a good idea, I have to question whether it would work in a large group like we are at the RTR.
There are different kinds of classes over the days of the RTRs. Some are larger, some smaller. Done in a class situation as I imagine the other meetings are, it  wouldn't necessarily be “large”. Define large.  If the group is larger than what the leader is comfortable with, a second/third one could be arranged.  Not everyone is used to, or comfortable even just saying no to others. This would be an opportunity to practice that. The people attending can choose the next steps. That may be all they want. Maybe they wouldn't even want to participate in the group, but rather watch.

I don't like surprise attacks, either.


I must be missing something here??
A panhandling teenager who stopped several feet away when you had a gasoline nozzel (a truely formidable weapon indeed) already in your hand and asked for busfare made you feel afraid enough to want a 'better weapon & training on using it'?

A panhandling teenager who stopped several feet away
No, the tall panhandling older teenager came up behind me, out of nowhere, and asked for money. He didn't approach from the front or the side where I would have seen him coming, he didn't wait until I was finished, and he didn't stop coming toward me until I turned to him.
He didn't go to the other side of the station where there were other people, including men, he came up behind a lone woman busy at something, with her back to him.

be aware of your surroundings. Being startled does not make it okay to go on the attack.
I was aware of my surroundings. The woman in the car behind me left, and there was no one in sight when I turned to work with the pump. I had to keep –pumping the handle—to keep the gas flowing. I probably should have quit and reported the problem then, or even just took a couple of dollars of gas and left, and the man would have possibly gone someplace else. I did go in and report the misbehaving pump to the help.
The young man was not there, then he was. The distance was great enough he had to have hurried to me, as he was NOT there when I looked seconds before.

Screaming at & threatening (holding up pepper spray is a threatening gesture) is not defense when you are only being spoken to, it makes you the aggressor.
No it doesn't.  Sneaking up behind someone who is not expecting ANYONE to come up behind them makes the sneak the aggressor.

Had he wanted to get violent a shot of gasoline to the face would have ended that pretty quickly.
Except that was a main part of the problem—the pump mechanism not working correctly. So no, he wouldn't have gotten sprayed. Even if I had aimed it at him, the gas would have come out more a dribble and quit.
If it had been working, I would have been washing the windshield, and would have seen him. I have never had a problem like that previously.


Ella I want to acknowledge and not invalidate your fear.  I'm sure it was very real to you in the moment.
Thanks, but at the time I was not afraid. I was frustrated at the (not) workings of the pump, then startled by a stranger who wanted something when I was busy.
Later when I thought of the geography I was in at that moment—hidden from view by other eyes, old, much smaller than he, isolated, no one else around I realized how vulnerable I was.

1) Something in your thoughts was important enough to you that you were unable to choose to park in a manner in which you would have felt safer.
I didn't feel unsafe when I parked at that pump. It was a bright day, few people around,-- other customers had just driven off, I was next in line, no pedestrians that I could see, the other side all pumps appeared busy. I had no reason to not feel/be safe. I've never had such an experience in my life. It was not an unsafe situation. It was a regular everyday happening. Until he came along.
I don't go into places that I do not see as safe.
2) You became frustrated because you had issues with the pump and became hypersensitive.
Yes, I was frustrated with the pump that refused to work properly, then rudely surprised by a stranger who should NOT have been there.
3) Your only regret besides how you parked was that you didn't yell at someone.
No, the regrets that surfaced later included not telling him to wait until I finished, then I would see if I had money, or, not telling him to wash my windows and I would see if I had money, or, not telling him “no”, or not telling him to go to the other side to the men over there. Later than that, I do regret not having told him to back off. He really should not have come up behind me as he did. I'd bet he wouldn't do that to a man. I know that because he didn't. He left the area. I know that because I watched him..

You completely controlled the entire situation.  
I'll disagree with that. The frustration got in the way. The surprise intruder got in the way.
It was a series of choices you made.
It was a series of choices I did not make out of frustration and surprise.
Not everybody has the training, expectations, experiences, temperament, to respond to such events appropriately.
Sometimes it's as simple as taking the proper self defense courses
Yes, courses in telling people to back off. A whole lot like what I suggested.

 

[Ella1]

Cyndi, Suanne, Thanks.
I tried to get there last year, Cyndi, but it was not to be. A goal for me will be electricity.
I need to be able to be warm. My little heater won't do the job, I'd need a bigger one.

I will be there if I can. I missed Wagoneer's art classes last time...
And thanks for considering this as an add-on.

 

[wagoneer]

Get with me this time, we will have a quiet painting time,,, living in a big city i guess immune to random people asking for money especially one guy a filipino ghost in rags looking like a goblin no english but very religious, scary yet real, have never felt unsafe but perplexed on how these people survive and how they get in the country?? You have the added spice of being a female, something I cannot comprehend emotionally , while i have tried. A firm "not this time" works for me, do not assume something bad will follow, the last thing he wants is CONFRONTATION stand your ground. love ye Adrian

 

[GotSmart]

There is a local grocery I frequent.  

They have a few regulars that panhandle with the same come on.  Family stranded 25 miles away in the next town.  They need gas to get there. I fell for it a couple of times, then saw the person at the gas kiosk loading up on energy drinks and candy, and cashing in the small bills for 20's.  

She had the gall to turn to me and try her pitch.  I just stared until she realized what was in her hand, and left.   :blush:

Being aware of positioning is one of the first rules in survival in the cities. 

In the desert or woods many of us have pets to alert to someone coming up to our position.  My cat is good for that. In the towns, he is worthless. 

Ella, you have a valid concern.  I think your idea should be more than considered.

 

[NickTheoBennett]

living in a big city i guess immune to random people asking for money ... have never felt unsafe. You have the added spice of being a female, something I cannot comprehend emotionally.

 
I have avoided replying to this thread thus far for exactly this reason.  I'm a 29 year old male, so I don't doubt that an elderly female has a VERY different viewpoint on this subject than I do.  I also grew up and went to high school and then university in the middle of downtown Portland, OR, so panhandlers were a regular occurrence.  You can't go 2 blocks in downtown Portland without being asked for money by some homeless person or another, some of whom are of the rather intimidating gutter punk persuasion.  


It does sound to me like the fellow in this story was just panhandling for some cash and Ella interpreted the situation based on her own life experience as being a threat even though I'm sure the panhandler was trying not to scare her (as evidenced by the fact that he stopped a few feet away.  If he were trying to intimidate her I think he would have gotten right up in her face).  


Please understand, Ella, that I mean no offense in all of this.  I know that you felt threatened by the whole situation and I respect that.  Being a young man I honestly cannot imagine how this might have impacted you.

 
I also think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to roleplay similar situations.  While I don't think yelling at the guy or threatening him with pepper spray would be an appropriate response I also don't think it would be a bad idea to roleplay similar situations for those who might feel uncomfortable or in danger.  


I'd certainly be willing to play the bad guy in a role play at the RTR as long as you all promise not to pepper spray me as part of the scenario  . I've never been pepper sprayed and I would strongly prefer to keep it that way

 

[mayble]

It's interesting to see the different perspectives on the OP's encounter, from male vs female, urban vs rural background.
Personally, I'm a woman who grew up in the country and never saw a panhandler until my first visit to Chicago as a 30-something adult.  I have never felt threatened by a panhandler or even the slightly odd (some call crazies) who strike up conversation, but I've seen friends have a strong reaction that left me wondering.  Fear or apathy?
I believe "stranger danger" is blown all out of proportion.  Then again I've never been robbed or assaulted by a stranger.  Maybe such an experience skews one's perception, but statistics indicate we're more likely to be hurt by someone we know and trust than by a random bad guy on the street and I've seen nothing in my own life or those close to me to contradict that.
And of course we're still more likely to be seriously injured or killed in an auto accident.  I still get in my van and drive damn near every day, and I still talk to strangers.

 

[GotSmart]

I was raised in the country.  When I was taking computer training in SF, I watched a woman walking up the street.  There was a guy walking down in her direction.  For no reason he started beating her on the head.  The group I was with, all being country folk started yelling and running.  He heard us and just walked off.  We split up, the gals taking care of the vic, and calling 911.   The guys followed the perp at a distance, and directed the cops. 

There are people with loose screws out there.  Be aware, and stay safe.

 

[mayble]

And how many car accidents have you seen? :s
A few people are dangerous.  The vast majority are not.
Seeing monsters in every shadow is a lousy way to go through life in my opinion, but to each their own.
Interesting discussion at any rate.

 

[GotSmart]

I have seen many, and been in several. Also earthquakes, tornadoes, wildfires and shoot outs.  

Everyone has the potential to be dangerous.  It just takes the right circumstances. 

Parking by the door of a business is safer than parking at the furthest pump.  

Be aware and stay safe.

 

[poprouge]

Just to add my two cents, while some may be interested in role playing sneak attacks and if it's done in a controlled class setting where only those interested or agreeing to participate, I'd say go for it. However, after the class has ended and outside of the class situation, I would think the roleplaying agressor would put him/her self in much danger to sneak up on anyone.

Sorry you had this negative experience Ella, I'd like to second you look into a local self defense class. Even if it just affords you more confidence in handling awkard situations. Good luck hope to see you at the RTR.