Ring terminal / lug antics

[Vanada]

Hey electrical experts / SternWake / electrical experts!

I finally got the ball rolling with my solar install wiring and am coming up against a couple problems. Hopefully y'all can stop me from making any grave errors that might result in fire, electrocution or bad vibes.

For reference I have wire sizes 4AWG, 8AWG, 10AWG, 16AWG and some 12AWG automotive inline fuse holders. For connectors I have an assortment of the colored crimp connectors and packs of 4AWG and 8AWG lugs.

To crimp the large lugs I've been naughty and tried a couple DIY methods including a shimmed nut splitting tool and what I've settled on which is stamping it with a bolt head and hammer then putting a vertical groove using flathead screwdriver and hammer. On some of the marine forums I've seen this is looked down upon quite harshly so berate me now if need be but at least tell me how and why this will get me killed in the long run.

Essentially I now need to get the 12AWG inline fuse onto the battery terminal (threaded 5/16). The 12AWG ring connector definitely won't fit and I don't have a butt connector that will step between 12 and 8AWG. My possible solutions, many of which I can tell now are beyond dodgy are:
1) Drill the 12AWG ring terminal so that it barely has any material left... But will fit.
2) Solder 12AWG to 8AWG and use an 8AWG lug on that.
3) Strip more off the 12AWG then double the exposed wire over and push it into an 8AWG lug.
4) Strip / wrap around the terminal and bolt down. Short term solution... Boo.

Cheers!
Tom

 

[Trebor English]

My suggestion is buy the ring terminal for #12 wire with a big enough hole in it.  At Autozone they come in small packs of 6 or 8 for a price.

The marine problem with the bad DIY methods is that when you go away from the pier you are on your own with no fire department to call and no shoulder to pull over.  While you are running your boat with one hand you have to put out the fire with the other.  Aircraft folks have the same problem with nowhere to pull over.  In a van or car you can pull over, get out with your marshmallows, and enjoy the fire. 

In December I went from Florida to Virginia to be a tourist.  Monticello is nice, I recommend it.  Near Daytona there was a car burning.  The tires were gone, the gas tank was ignited, the people were standing around.  It made me very sad to see that.  It may be that all they lost was their stuff but it still made me very sad.

 

[Vanada]

Thanks guys! I didn't even think to see if they made 12 gauge terminals for 5/16" and above! Looks like Canadian Tire and Home Depot stock them here. I'll definitely pick some up before the end of the week.

 

[SternWake]

On some of the marine forums I've seen this is looked down upon quite harshly so berate me now if need be but at least tell me how and why this will get me killed in the long run.

It is well known poor electrical crimps cause locusts to converge, and for rats to discover your wire insulation is infused with peanut butter.

Really it is not hard to make an Ok looking crimp which one cannot tug the wire from.  I have done the hammer and screwdriver thing a long while back, and it held for many years, and even looked kind of professional.  I was impressed with myself.

I did it on my original alternator to house battery feed, on the ring terminal which attaches to the alternator (+) stud.  It was a parallel circuit and one day I saw my amperage into a depleted battery was less than half if what I was expecting to see.

The heatshrink kept the wire from falling off of the ring terminal.  A bunch of vibration and heat cycling and my home hammer crimp had failed.

How long you can get away with poor crimps is one matter, but a good physical connection is not necessarily a good electrical connection.  Check them for heating at higher amperages.

NO doubt the resistance of my poor hammer crimp induced a lot of heating which  helped cause its failure. I got lucky the heatshrink kept the wire from grounding out. It could have been ugly.

https://www.amazon.com/Terminal-Cri...qid=1485411683&sr=8-13&keywords=iwiss+crimper

I wouldn't try to do professional crimps with this linked tool that would be inspected by the ABYC, but that tool would be a thousand times better than a screwdriver dent in a ring terminal.

Do you want to have to redo all these connections?  If they fail and pull from the ring terminal, what is the worst that can happen?

Good Ring terminals are expensive.

I feel my harbor freight hydraulic crimper kind of insults a nice tinned copper heavy wall ring terminal.

Obligatory compass marine link:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables

 

[John61CT]

yah, Rod's dah man, another good thread here:

 
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/crimper-shoot-out-load-test-results.125926

Also from my notes:
genuinedealz.com will make you what ever you need for $1.00 per crimp plus materials.. Usually a much better quality than the pre-made stuff and you get to pick your lengths, lug hole diameters etc...

 

[SternWake]

That link did not work for me. appears to be missing a forward slash

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/crimper-shoot-out-load-test-results.125926/

 

[SternWake]

While I have a hydraulic crimper, when I decide a new 0awg alternator to battery switch cable is in my Budget, I think I will have it made by GDZ as he has the 600+ dollar greenlee crimpers.

I wonld need to spend a while grinding out new dies for 0awg thick walled ring terminals and much of that grinding depth/size, is a guess.

Good proper crimps have no 'ears'

This is 10awg in an 8awg ring terminal. I crimped it in my HF Hydraulic crimper, and OH NO!!!!! Ears. Booooo

However, I needed to practice my soldering skills anyway. Largely cosmetic warm and fuzzies but:

That terminal will never carry more than 10 amps anyway. So overkill extreme.

Even if I wanted to do it myself, I'd order all the compenents from him. Best adhesive lined heatshrink available as far as I am concerned. Excellent prices and ships that day for free, priority mail.


What i really want is a template for actual die sizes so I can grind out my Harbor freight dies to the proper size, instead of guessing.

 

[SternWake]

Which ring terminal would you prefer?

The two on the right are Auto parts stores 4 gauge SAE with steel ring terminals. Boooooooooo!

I doubt this 2awg crimp would pass Mainesail's inspection. I Ground out the dies, a bit too far, then folded many layers of aluminum foil to get the compression I desired.

Those crimps were intended to regularly pass well over 100 amps, and were for a friends very expensive vehicle so I really wished I had the absolute proper tools for the job, but lacking the $$$ for them, did my best with what I had.

 

[Vanada]

Great info as always SternWake!

In case you're curious these are what I'm using:
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005V9USK2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005V9V2BG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Since there's 25 per pack and I've only made up a few cables so far, technically I can afford to go again on the ones I have already done. In fact when I ordered them I was happy there were more than I needed because there was a high chance I would mess up a bunch by learning.

 

[SternWake]

I too ordered, and unfortunatley proceeded with using those ring terminals.

They are very thin copper, and while 4awg cable might fit inside of them, these connectors ar 4awg would act as an electrical bottleneck at higher amperages. If you were to compress one of those connectors the cross section would be less than half the diameter of 4awg Cable.

I very much regret buying budget ring terminals. Luckily the circuits I used them on will never pass more than 65 amps and are not mission critical, but I hang my head in shame at employing them when I know better than to order based on price. Had I felt/seen/handled one of the 4awg ring terminals I bought I would never have purchased them. They also would not crimp properly even in the right size dies, as the HF crimper can do 4awg properly, using the 0awg dies.

When i place my next order at Genuinedealz, There will be a lot more thick walled ring terminals and copper involved to redo what I should not have proceeded with several years ago.

I have to do it again, well perhaps not have to, but want to, as I have little confidence in my decisions of several years ago in priceeding with substandard ring terminals.

I hate it when I believe a good price represents good value. So often it is the opposite.

A do notice. at 65 amps, unacceptable voltage drop and my IR gun reveals these Cheesy thin copper ring terminals to be the source of heat in that area. I bet an IR camera would have them glowing passing 65 amps for 30 minutes.
I can compnesate for the induced voltage drop. it is not really tha tbig of a deal, but I did not save any money buying budget ring terminals. I wasted money as I feel it is necessary to replace them, and the copper I cut to length is not long enough to reach if I cut them off.

I hate waste and my cheapo thin copper budget ring terminals as going to cause a lot of it.

Somebody started a regret thread. I forgot to mention these thin cheap copper ring terminals.

 

[John61CT]

Everyone makes mistakes. Smart people learn from them.

Generous smart people pass the lessons on to others.

Thanks SW!

 

[Vanada]

Learning often involves mistakes SternWake so you can see that "wastage" as part of your overhead. Had to be done to find out. Plus, past performance is just a platform to build from rather than a standard to limit yourself by.

So now I've tried a few things out and really come to understand, in my layman's brain, why crimps are important. I figure it would be good to pay it forward to other laymen in the same situation as me.

Can I just bash it with a hammer and screwdriver?
Well, yes but no. If you want to find some validation on using a DIY method then I can tell you that doing this will form some sort of mechanical and electrical connection. It is however very very far from ideal.

Why?
The hammer and flathead screwdriver method will not be very strong so eventually the wire will make its way out somehow. Add to that, it leaves air gaps inside the connector around the wire where moisture can collect and cause corrosion. Those same air gaps also create resistance which leads to excessive heating when energy passes through. In turn this might cause plastic components such as your battery to melt and becomes a fire hazard. If it doesn't get to that stage you will at least have an electrically inefficient connection.

What's so great about those special crimping tools then?
They apply pressure inward from all directions around the terminal and result in a very strong mechanical connection free of any air gaps. Rather than just sandwiching the wire in and squishing it your aim is actually to "cold weld" the copper wire strands together and to the connector simultaneously. 

Ugh, but I'm a DIY'er! I have a big budget, don't want to buy the tool and just need something that works!
If you can live with doing a less-than-good job, perhaps as a temporary measure, sure. What you lose is electrical efficiency but if you are willing to keep a close eye on your system perhaps you can catch any issues before they become serious. A bad connection which simply falls out of the terminal could land anywhere, causing a short and more danger. To be clear, my advice is not to do this but I'm trying to address many people's practical scenario here. My personal plan is to stick with my DIY method for now, checking connections religiously. Then, in an effort to learn from my mistakes once my build is further down the line and I know I'm not going to be tweaking wire lengths etc, I will look at replacing the terminals and getting an auto shop to crimp the lugs for me.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[johnny b]

Don't scrimp on crimps. The thin cheap crap from Home Despot, etc. is just not worth it. No savings if it has to be done twice...and that's only if you still have a vehicle left for a 'do over'.

This covers all sizes from the bigger 'lugs' down to the smaller 8 - 14 gauges.

A kit with a quality crimper for the smaller stuff, I consider a must have for on the road emergencies.
For the big stuff...lay it out with rope/string, measure (twice/thrice) and then order professionally made terminated cables from a place like Powerwerx.
https://powerwerx.com/custom-dc-power-cables

I got my small stuff kit and terminals from Elec Direct. I use the terminals with built on heat shrink...work great.
http://www.elecdirect.com/

Powerwerx is where I got some heavy cables made as well as an Anderson Powerpoles connectors kit (15/30/45).
https://powerwerx.com/

 

[DannyB1954]

Putty and paint makes a carpenter what he ain't.
On electrical terminals I crimp em down with whatever I can and then solder them.
I also seal them up with liquid electrical tape. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Star-Brite-4-oz-Liquid-Electrical-Tape-Black-084104N/206513456

 

[johnny b]

Solder at a terminal end can break under vibration....which is why it is not allowed on aircraft.
I'm OK with a soldered splice in the middle of a wire due to the flex available on either side, but not an 'end'.

Fram Oil Filter philosophy....."You can pay me now, or you can pay me later!"  

 

[ccbreder]

GenuineDealz.com has the quickest service and the lowest prices on custom battery cables.

 

[GotSmart]

I just went and bought a hydrailic crimper.  I figure one problem not happening is worth the price.  Since I measure wires by instaling them, and cut to fit I do not have to worry about an extra 2 feet of cable, or it being 1 1/2 inch too short.      Since I bought it, I have had to make another 15 cables for myself, and perhaps 20 or so for others.  Then there are the people I have loaned it to. 

The best source for copper ring terminals is the army surplus store in Q.  I was paying 50 cents each for the heavy ones.

 

[DannyB1954]

Solder at a terminal end can break under vibration....which is why it is not allowed on aircraft.
I'm OK with a soldered splice in the middle of a wire due to the flex available on either side, but not an 'end'.

Fram Oil Filter philosophy....."You can pay me now, or you can pay me later!"  

When I was doing boat electrical we would only solder the very ends of the small sizes, (where the wire came out the other end of the crimp).  It also helped keep the wire from wicking up moisture. The liquid tape also seemed to work better than the heat shrink tape, (unless you had the kind with glue already inside of the heat shrink tape). 

On the larger sizes, I never seen a wire break from vibration. I suppose you could fasten the wire so that it could not vibrate at the end.

 

[TMG51]

I confess, I've never bothered to crimp a large gauge ring terminal. Instead, I hold the terminal in a pair of vice grips, hold it in front of a blowtorch, feed solder into it until its full of liquid solder, then hold the wire in the same flame with the terminal so they both heat up and then push the wire into the terminal and let it cool.

I've done this with 4, 2, 0, 00 gauge wires and haven't had any fail on a vehicle.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

There's a system that uses pre-sized solder pellets to do exactly that . . .

[video=youtube]hhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDkNMDDrBsttp://[/video]