"Riff Raff"

[morongobill]

Title of a fulltimer's post just up at a blog that I follow.

http://www.newagenomad.com/2014/11/riff-raff.html

This describes a recent visit from a ranger to his forest camp in Arizona.
My initial reaction is it sure seems like the rangers are not exactly welcoming van dwellers to "their" forest.

 

[ccbreder]

sounds so much diferant than my experiances with rangers and national forests. So, ooo I don't have a comment.

 

[SoulRaven]

Any encounter with a LEO grab your smart phone and hit the button on the app smart voice recorder to make a record of the conversation. Then send it to the higher ups for their review if you have any issues.

 

[mockturtle]

Any encounter with a LEO grab your smart phone

Any encounter with a LEO and I won't be grabbing anything. Don't want to get shot. ["Your honor, I thought she was going for a gun!"]

 

[pseudo_mccoy]

http://www.copblock.org
From the site:
"CopBlock.org is a resource for the education of individual rights through the dissemination of different viewpoints and tactics that seek to curtail the all-too-common rights-violations and unaccountability that today exists."

 

[Almost There]

Am I reading something wrong in the National Forest rules or was he camped in an area where dispersed camping wasn't allowed, OR was it that the ranger didn't think his vehicle qualified as a 'self-contained' vehicles ie. a camper.

Or was he just being hassled because, because, because?

Curious because I fully intend to do mostly dispersed camping!

 

[rvwandering]

For awhile the rangers in Arizona were giving RVers and van dwellers who were boondocking in the Arizona National Forest a hard time. A few people were staying for more than the allowed 14 days or leaving a mess so they came down on everyone. It is supposedly illegal to be living in the forest if you don't have a "real" address. This was used as an excuse to harass people who spend the winter in Quartzsite then spend the summer months in the mountains.

Bob did a blog post about it and I know there was a discussion on the forums but I can't find either now.

New Age Nomad must have run into one of these rangers. Somebody reported him even though he wasn't doing anything illegal. The ranger came to check it out but couldn't do anything about it because it's perfectly legal to camp on forest land. He really should have apologized.

Almost There - we boondock in many National Forests, rarely see a ranger and have never been questioned. Just know the rules which is usually 14 days maximum stay, a certain distance from the road, water and established campgrounds, no driving off the roads.

 

[akrvbob]

It's a long complicated issue revolving around the concept of "residency in the Forest", but the important thing is to know that it only happens in a very few, very busy National Forests, most of them in Arizona. The odds of you running into this problem are very low.

I had the exact thing happen to me and I wrote a post on it here:
http://www.cheaprvliving.com/blog/keep-it-simple-sunday-staying-legal-as-a-boondocker/

There were 346 comments on that post so I almost certainly answered all questions about it. Anything you could want to know is there.
Bob

 

[66788]

I believe that when a Ranger sees a van dweller or RVer at a site, he assesses the vehicle and makes a quick decision as to what he believes is the status of that person's presence at that time. If it's a ratty run down older van, then to him you are a van dweller. If it's a newer or well kept RV or van, then you are an RVer on vacation.

Personally, I have always had clean, well cared for vehicles that project a positive image, so I am basically left alone and not bothered.

I've had great luck with Law Enforcement and although I've been stopped for moving violations more than 20 times, I've never ended up with a ticket, always a warning.

I think my attitude and interaction with LE is what makes the difference. As my mom always said, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

 

[cyndi]

If it's a ratty run down older van, then to him you are a van dweller. If it's a newer or well kept RV or van, then you are an RVer on vacation.

New Age Nomad's van is older, but certainly not ratty or run down. He keeps his camp site clean and is very unobtrusive. He, himself is casually well dressed, clean shaven (last time I saw him) and presents himself in a polite manner.

 

[MikeRuth]

Any encounter with a LEO grab your smart phone and hit the button on the app smart voice recorder to make a record of the conversation. Then send it to the higher ups for their review if you have any issues.

Amen to that, or a pocket voice recorder, I have one with me at all times now.
Mike R

 

[HoboBerg]

New Age Nomad's van is older, but certainly not ratty or run down. He keeps his camp site clean and is very unobtrusive. He, himself is casually well dressed, clean shaven (last time I saw him) and presents himself in a polite manner.

Thanks Cyndi Feeling less like Riff Raff now For the record this was the first time in 5 years a ranger was flat out a *&^%. Also every time I have gotten the residing in the forest speech its always been close to private land, with nice homes. No worries!

 

[Sameer]

I believe that when a Ranger sees a van dweller or RVer at a site, he assesses the vehicle and makes a quick decision as to what he believes is the status of that person's presence at that time. If it's a ratty run down older van, then to him you are a van dweller. If it's a newer or well kept RV or van, then you are an RVer on vacation.

This is exactly what the Coconino Ranger told me....He can tell by 'appearance' who is living in the forest. My current remodle included looking like I was Van-camping and not Van-living.

 

[light trip]

Like many of you I read the post by newagenomad on the website and several concerns rise to the surface.

Before I get on my soapbox, I'll say of course we're only hearing one side of this story. And I agree, you gather more flies with honey then you do with vinegar.

"There's been some complaints of some Riff Raff living out here in van." This, to me, is cause for two concerns. One: was there really a complaint? If there was, there would be a record of it. Or was it just a made up reason to contact the van? Two: the term "Riff Raff," even if this term was used in a complaint, this is derogatory and should not have been used by the officer.

Then we have "How long yah been here? Where yah going? Where yah coming from?" While the length of stay to me might be a proper question, where I'm going and where I came from does not. I know some would disagree, but even if you find these questions proper, it goes to self incrimination. But I would argue, if I was cited for speeding, where I was headed in such a hurry is of no concern to the officer, only that I was breaking the law by speeding.

Now I had an argument many years ago in Florida with a police officer when I was in my mid twenties. I was clearly in the Right and the officer knew it. He walked away without saying another word when he knew where I was headed.

It was a couple of weeks later I got pulled over for moving over in my lane when another car got too close to me. This was the reason given, I was pulled over for driving within my lane. My license, registration and insurance was checked, all good. Then they ran local wants and warrens on me, again all good. Frustrated, they decided to run a national search on me, explaining it's very rare that someone isn't wanted for something. Nearly an hour later, detained,,, all good, I was free to go. But the officer made his point.

 

[highdesertranger]

well I read it and that ranger sounds like a bad apple. I have had many encounters with rangers and game wardens and have never ran into one of these bad apples. in fact I have had totally opposite results but I usually am far away from touristy spots. I have had a forest ranger tell me I could stay past the 14 day limit. I have had another one give me permission to have a camp fire during a no burn time. had a game warden drive by our camp which was pretty extensive he stopped backed up and drove in got out of his vehicle the first thing he said was "wow I saw your camp and had to have a closer look" I asked him if he wanted a cup of coffee he said yeah and stayed talking with us for about an hour never once was any law we might be breaking brought up, he just wanted to talk. on another occasion we were prospecting the white mountains on the ca nv border. we stopped at a gate I got off my quad to open the gate and a forest service leo pulled up behind us I immediately thought we were getting a ticket. I had no helmet, my buddy on his bike had no helmet. my dog was off leash with no collar or tags on. but my metal detector was strapped to my gun rack. he saw that right off and asked if we were prospecting I said yes and that's all he wanted talk about. "have you tried such and such an area, have you had any luck", and on and on. he talked to us for about an hour all about prospecting the area. could have given us at least 4 tickets but never brought any of that up just prospecting. btw when he stopped and got out of his truck he left the door open and my dog jumped in his truck he just laughed and said my dog wanted to go home with him. I know there are bad apples in any group but so far I have never ran into one. knock on wood. highdesertranger

 

[66788]

When someone tells a tale, if you weren't there, you really don't know exactly what happened. Like you HDR, I've had great luck with LE.

I've come to the conclusion that there are so many variables it's impossible to say why something went down the way it did. I just hope that our good luck continues!

 

[akrvbob]

This exact same thing happened to me and to several other people i know. There are several newspaper articles in it. One guy in a nice RV got a $245 ticket because he had an Escapee and LTVA sticker on his 5th wheel. The Ranger said that proved he was Residing in the forest.

It has nothing to do with a few bad apple Rangers or ratty looking vans or RVs. It is a decision made at the top by the Head Ranger of a just a few Forests as to how they are going to interpret the No Residency rules.

The Ranger in my camp was polite and proffessional and he told me that he was supposed to give me a ticket but he wasn't going to.

It's a much more complicated subject than most of you are seeing.
Bob

 

[offroad]

And the skill to talk and relate to mr Leo doing a job is shown to be needed again and again. Be nice even when they are assholes. Be polite and reasonable. If they still insist on a ticket ask for the district manager name and phone number and think about a visit. These are people folks, not robots. Don't let them treat you that way or let them act that way themselves

 

[ccbreder]

Off road, I think that was first said by Bob Dylan in a song or to that effect.