Reminder of the dangers of extended vans

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Gary68

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"The 15-passenger van is a popular conveyance for youth sports teams, church groups and summer activity organizers. N.H.T.S.A. research examined crash data from 2003 to 2007, showing that the more people these vans carry, the greater the risk of rollover in a single-vehicle crash. A 15-passenger van with 10 or more occupants has a rollover rate nearly three times higher than one carrying fewer than five people.

In 2007, occupant fatalities in 15-passenger vans in all crashes increased nearly 20 percent over the previous year. But in vans that actually rolled over, fatalities had increased by 73 percent.

A number of factors contribute to the higher risk of rollover in a 15-passenger van. Adding passengers and cargo moves the center of gravity higher and toward the rear of the vehicle, causing instability and the potential for drivers to lose control during emergency handling maneuvers. Electronic stability control systems are now required on all new vehicles, including 15-passenger vans. But older models may not have this preventative safety technology, which helps drivers maintain control of a vehicle when it enters a skid."
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...arn-of-15-passenger-van-rollover-danger/?_r=0


15_passenger_van_map.gif

https://vanangels.wordpress.com/


i'm sure this would apply to single rear wheel class b's also so be carefull
 
Who carries so many people in their class B? I understand it is the weight, and probably the distribution of the weight as well, but still who carries and extra 1500-2000 pounds? Still, good information to keep in the back of your mind.
 
It is quite easy to load down a campervan when the storage is there, and when one played too much tetris as a child.  I can load 500+ Lbs of tools inside without affecting my living space.

Combine that with old tired springs, and handling in an emergency situation is potentially horrible.

I see lots of dweller type vans just sagging hard and heavy.  Wallowing down the highway or leaning hard in turns while driving slow with a line of impatient traffic behind.

When the rear spring can match the load, and the shocks can dampen the spring, handling in an emergency situation is much improved.

I'm not much fussed over the appearance of my Paintjob, but I'll be danged before I let it handle poorly.

My solution was firestone riderite airhelper springs supporting the weak tired leafs, thicker front coils and KYB gas a just shocks on all 4 corners. Brembo rotors and HawkHPS pads and properly adjusted rear brakes give me rather insane braking ability.

Tires play a huge part in handling too.  LT tires ride a bit rougher but have stiffer sidewalls, and better puncture resistance than P/XL tires.

It also comes down to the driver, and all the Numbnuts we share the road with.

Check your mirrors often, keep distractions from your paws, and never underestimate the stupidity of your fellow human driving that glass and steel weapon in the next lane.
 
I totally agree with everything Stern said.

However, I would like to raise one point, namely the use of air springs.

They were invented for use on vehicles with widely varying loads, like pulling heavy trailers or carrying a slide in camper.

For those of us with a fixed, unvarying load, I have to wonder if we wouldn't be better off REPLACING the old, worn out leaf springs with new springs instead.  The one problem with air springs is that they can occasionally blow out or the air line can fail, and I have to think that having something like that happening suddenly while at speed can't be good.

Which leads to the point of this post:  Do you actually save a lot of money by installing the air springs?  What do they cost, and what would new leaf springs cost?  Anyone know?

Regards
John
 
Rollover testing on Roadtreks:

"Dynamic Rollover Testing The purpose of this testing is to reduce deaths and injuries from occupants and their appendages not remaining within the passenger compartment during rollover accidents. The test is conducted by placing the test vehicle on a movable platform perpendicular to the platform's line of travel. To help start the rollover, the test vehicle rests at a 23 degree lateral incline with the tires against a "trip" flange. The platform is propelled down a test track to 30 mph (48 Km/h) and stopped in such a way that the vehicle is propelled from the platform. Although the platform speed and height of the trip flange were increased above the requirement, the Roadtrek would not rollover. This is considered a pass; in a rollover situation, what safer vehicle to be in than one that does not rollover?"



http://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Roadtrek_Brochure-2000_chassis_model_year.pdf

Class B's have a much lower center of gravity where the weight (tanks) is below the floor than a passenger van where the load is above the floor.
 

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My concern with air assist for load support is that often both air chambers are filled with the same fill valve.   With this setup if a vehicle rounds a long extended sweeping turn air is forced from the air chamber on the  outside of the turn to the inside air chamber and the lean of the vehicle is increased.
 
I know my old 97 extended van needs a lot of "something," as I get that "tip over" feeling if I try to make a decently fast turn. It is 9.5 feet high with it's tall fiberglass roof (started life as a wheelchair lift transit van and it has the height in big red letters in front of the steering wheel).

I have been concerned that when I have the money to address this, I don't want to be ripped off by not knowing what I need.

NOW, I'm worried there is no straightforward answer even from our many very knowledgeable folks here. Yikes. I do not carry water tanks nor tools. Last year, my big weight was in a huge tote of books and another smaller tote of stuff I know now I don't need). But, next year I do want to carry a few MORE tools (from reading all the advice on this forum). My plywood bed is across the back and underneath is where most of the heavy stuff is stored. Probably the worst place to have the most extra weight, I suppose, if I understand the article properly.

So I'll be reading carefully as you guys argue it out. LOL
 
I'd say that virtually none of our board members will be carrying 15 passengers in their extended vans.

Exercise caution when loading/building your van, keep the weight low, and drive reasonably.

As a camper, the water, batteries, tools, supplies etc. are normally kept very low in the van so being top heavy is really not a concern.

My Dodge extended van does not exhibit unusual handling characteristics, as the weight is properly distributed in the design of the build.
 
WriterMs said:
I know my old 97 extended van needs a lot of "something," as I get that "tip over" feeling if I try to make a decently fast turn. It is 9.5 feet high with it's tall fiberglass roof (started life as a wheelchair lift transit van and it has the height in big red letters in front of the steering wheel).

I have been concerned that when I have the money to address this, I don't want to be ripped off by not knowing what I need.

The first thing to check out is the condition, age and choice of your shocks.

A set of front shocks on their way out (might not be leaking yet) will cause the front end to dip on a hard stop or harder cornering.

At 18 years old, the springs may be weakening as well but shocks is the first on the list.

You may find that the van would benefit from some heavier duty shocks than one would normally put on a van to help compensate for the additional weight of the high top and all the stuff we tend to carry.

Under the bed is not a bad place for heavy things to be, particularly if most of the heavy stuff is over the rear axle. It's important though, to keep the weight of things in mind when packing so that it can be distributed as equally as possible - as in don't put all the heavy crap at the very back and on one side... :rolleyes:
I've driven both a regular height van and high tops and the cornering is definitely different and neither will corner the way my sports car did but then I don't expect it to. Maybe part of the feeling is driving habits and expectations.
 
I do feel the right leaf spring for the load is better than adding a set of helpers to weak leafs.


In my situation I knew the loads were going to be quite variable, and I went the airspring route, and no regrets.

First thing I noted when driving was when going around turns it did not lean near as much.

Second thing was that 18 wheelers passing me on the highway at 65mph  would not really push me all over the road as badly.

On a perfectly level surface I realized I needed about 10 more PSI drivers side than passenger to level it out side to side.

Mine are obviously plumbed separately.  I think plumbing the airbags together  to share one schrader valve is absolutely and overwhelmingly asinine.
I can see no reason to do so, other than laziness.  As if filling them is a hair pulling nightmare scenario or something, and only having to fill one is markedly easier.  Bah.


Right now I have most of my tools/weight removed from the van and 5 and 15LB psi evens it out, and 100PSI in both bags pushed the back end up well over 4 inches, and it turns flat, but the headlamps point straight down, it stresses the Driveshaft U joints more, and there is no need.  Loaded down the most I use is 35psi drivers side, 25 passenger.  A sudden deflation is not likely to cause an accident, though I imagine it depends where/when it were to occur.  The bags themselves are so robustly built I doubt catastrophic failure is common.  Perhaps the airlines if they get nicked or chafe through.

When urban dwelling 100 psi curbside and 0 PSI drivers side really levels out the bed nicely.  I have driven this way and left turns at speed can be scary

Mine have been installed since 2007.  The original set of airbags had very slow leaks out of the box, but Summit Autoparts replaced them painlessly, and the replacements lose less PSI than they say is acceptable.

I did use aftermarket PTC connectors and airhose.  These are strange connections. One inserts the wire, and that's it, according to the directions.  in my experience make sure the cut is absolutely 90 degrees, push it in until it bottoms out, then pull on the hose and sliding collett to ensure a good seal.  The 100PSI should force this to occur, but I help it along by pulling on collet and airhose.

I put the Schrader(fill) valves inside my Van to adjust from within.  Some put on a controller so they can change pressure from drivers seat.  I certainly would have been able to make use of this feature.

Mine were ~235$ in 2007 but I see the same kit is now 100$ more than that.

I am not sure the price of new leaf springs.  

If one's load is not variable and campsite leveling is not a concern, then proper metal springs for the load will no doubt ride better than airbag helper springs.  They are kind of bouncy and need a more aggressive shock to tame them.  I waited 5 months after airbag installation to put on the very firm KYB Gas a Just shocks  replacing some bottom dollar Gabriels, and control improved dramatically.

I really like the KYBs, but they certainly are firmer than say Monroe sensa tracs, which felt wallowy and soft to me.

There are other options for helper springs.  before I got the Firestone RR's, i used the 35$ helper springs from pep boys that clamp to only the back side of the leafspring and increase the rating.  The plastic slider on one end would eventually wera out and metal on metal contact would occur and I'd remove them, and get another set.  They certainly helped, but are a halfass solution.  Helwig sells a burlier version with no parts to wear out.

If a Van dweller van rear end is sagging badly, not only is it going to handle poorly, but it can also draw unwanted attention.  If one does not re aim the headlamps, then nighttime vision suffers, for the driver and drivers on the other side of the road being blinded by headlamps pointed too high.

Really a heavily loaded older van needs something to keep the rear end from sitting too low, if only for handling purposes.  I love the adjustability factor of my Airbags, but I am sure this is a detraction to others who want nothing to do with worrying about airbag PSI.  When i went up into the Sierras last fall, I'd parked level and went around with a tape measure adjusting PSI until all four corners sat as level as possible, and i was very pleased with the handling on the twisty turny roads. When descending, I pushed the handling limits to the very edge and beyond to see where the edge lay.  I am sure a passenger would have been screaming for their life, but I had full confidence in the handling.

One thing to note is that the Exhaust pipe runs fairly close to where the Airbags will reside.  I had to cut my exhaust and extend it about an inch for clearance.  I also extended the provided heatshield so that no part of the airbag was in direct line of sight withing 6 inches of the exhaust pipe.

My FS RR kit claimed a NO drill installation.  BS.  It comes with self drilling bolts, and If I did not have proper drill attachments to attach sockets or drilled pilot holes first, installation would be a nightmare.

I am not saying everybody should run out and get airbags to assist the rear leafs, just providing all the information I can think of to add if one does decide to go this route, or help to make a decision whether to go this route or other routes.

I know some have successfully used aftermarket shocks that employ coil springs over the shocks, or perhaps airshocks to assist load carrying ability.  I dislike this approach as a Shock can only exert so much force on its mounting hardware, but when these attachment points are also helping to carry the weight of the vehicle, then this force on these points increases greatly, perhaps beyond their design limits.

Also note that if lifting the vehicle by the frame, the airbags are not designed to  suspend the entire weight of the axle, and can be damaged by doing so.
 
Two main reasons I think for the rollover rate:

1) Weight too high with that many people.
2) Weight too far back behind the axle which lifted the front end.

99% of vandwellers should never have a problem with #1 because most of our stuff is well below the window. High center of gravity just shouldn't be a problem.

But #2 can be if you aren't careful to move the heaviest weight as far forward as possible at least in front of the rear axle. If you put your 225 pounds of batteries, 200 pounds of tools, 120 pounds of water (15 gallons) , and 100 pound generator at the very back door for easy access--you might very well have lifted your front axle so it has lost full control.

Three easy solutions:

1) Carry less, that's a lot of stuff!
2) move it as far forward as possible! My 4 golf carts are behind the front seat and water is on passenger floorboard. Solar instead of generator and it's forward on the roof. Tools are in a box between the front seats.
3) Buy a Chevy Extended with Long Wheel Base. I'm certain I could use a forklift and drop a pallet of cement bags in through the back door and it wouldn't lift the front end. It's got a LONGGGGG wheelbase.
Bob
 
ok a few points here.
1. it's not the number of people but the weight. as Bob and others pointed out the weight is higher with actual people as the load.
2. shocks should never carry the load. shocks will not up the payload of your van and shocks that say they will should be avoided.
3. despite what I said in #2 you should have good quality shocks on your vehicle. bad shocks make for bad handling and bad handling makes for unsafe conditions.
4. air bags are great helper springs, key word "helper" they will not fix worn out springs even though it seems like they do.
5. to get your factory leaf pack rebuilt by your local spring shop should be in the neighborhood of 500 bucks. to get completely new springs made up it should start around 1k and go up from there.
6. the roll over problem with vans has been well known for a long time. this is one reason I don't like 4x4 vans. it just make the problems worse. there are companies who sell dual rear wheel conversion kits to help stop the roll over problems.
highdesertranger
 
besides what been mentioned you can add lower profile/stiffer sidewall tires and larger sway bars to the list but the most important part is the driver.
if you havent heard the terms "steer into the slide" "power out of it""gently lift,gear down and use e brake"you might want to invest a trip to a driving school with a skid pad

and like it or not this next statement is 100% true

if an animal runs in front of you stay the course,sorry about your luck dude
 
"if an animal runs in front of you stay the course,sorry about your luck dude". that is a good point Gary. highdesertranger
 
I think part of the problem with 15 passenger vans is lack of maintenance, especially with the tires. A large portion of the rollovers were because of tire failure. Many of these when owned by churches see low mileage. The 1992 Clubwagon owned by a church and used by the scout troop I was a member of had less than 70k miles on it in 2013. If the tires last 50k miles like the ones on my dad's F-150 do, it could possibly be on it's second set of tires if they were only replaced due to low tread instead of age. Old tires are more likely to fail. Also, nobody ever checked the tire pressure. I found them as low as 30 PSI once, with the recommended pressure being 80 in the rear. Underinflated 10 year old tires are not a good thing.
 
Tires~!!! so important to be fresh so to speak. As lost in the world said.

I have a 2007 Ford E-150, bought it new in 2007 with Michelin tires. In 2014 7 years later I still had good tread left but they were showing signs of weather checking. Cracking that is.

At that point I had them replaced even though anyone that didn't check the date would look at the tread and say that's a good tire. NOPE.
 
On my 1/2 ton pickup I put heavy duty shocks with helper springs built onto them. http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/mon_loadlevel.cfm (just an example). I shopped online and got a good deal. After I installed them, I could carry a half cord of wood. I also went to load range E tires. The nice thing about the shocks is the springs on the shocks get stiffer with a heavier load. Empty the truck rides just fine.

Also with longer vans, (and most rv's in general), is one has to be careful how much you crank the wheel when leaving a parking space. The back of the vehicle swings out and will find anything within 3 feet of the curb.
 
DannyB1954 said:
On my 1/2 ton pickup I put heavy duty shocks with helper springs built onto them. http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/mon_loadlevel.cfm (just an example). I shopped online and got a good deal. After I installed them, I could carry a half cord of wood. I also went to load range E tires. The nice thing about the shocks is the springs on the shocks get stiffer with a heavier load. Empty the truck rides just fine.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll post it again.  In my younger days, I sold auto parts for a number of years.  Shocks with built in springs sometimes work, and sometimes fail and cause more problems.  The upper and lower shock mounts were not DESIGNED to be load bearing, so if you put too much weight on such a rig, the mounts can break off.

I suspect they work better on rigs with good springs that only need a little occasional help.  If you're trying to use them as a substitute for worn out springs, they are carrying much more weight and carrying it all the time.  The mounts really can't handle that. 

Regards
John
 
Many churches that used these vans switched to small school buses. My denomination that is self insured will no longer insure. I believe that the van it's self when used properly and maintained is safe. What I have observed is many times inexperienced drivers and a group of unstable cargo,people playing moving around. Theses vans are still used to carry athletes some pulling trailers that are single axle loaded improperly. Being safe is important but to say that things are unsafe because they are miss used is something the government is a specialist at. The vans were not designed to carry people but are modified cargo vans all of them I believe. We get back to the same logic that guns cause violence or a woman's dress causes rape. Maintain your equipment use common sense and do not drive beyond your capacity. I have seen a Uhaul truck pass a line of 30 or more semi going down a steep incline. If it crashes is there a problem with the truck or the guy that does not understand inclines.
 
Gambler said:
Being safe is important but to say that things are unsafe because they are miss used is something the government is a specialist at. The vans were not designed to carry people but are modified cargo vans all of them I believe.  We get back to the same logic that guns cause violence or a woman's dress causes rape. Maintain your equipment use common sense and do not drive beyond your capacity.  I have seen a Uhaul truck pass a line of 30 or more semi going down a steep incline. If it crashes is there a problem with the truck or the guy that does not understand inclines.

While Bozos and finger-pointers will exist in every demographic, I would think that a people whose lifestyles are based on self-reliance would be overall more conscientious of their own personal responsibility.  Or at least open to the possibility that "Maybe the problem here was YOU" when problems happen.

The need to shift culpability from the user to the tool or object is an unending tail-chase in modern society.  Every New Improvement attempting to make something idiot-proof is followed by a fresh batch of New & Improved idiots.
 
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