really nice cabinet building method

[AngryVanMan]

Toxic - not really:

Polystyrene is used in dozens of consumer applications and is considered a non-toxic inert plastic used in bottles, CD cases, solo cups, plastic dishware, container lids, yogurt cups, etc.  Foamed polystyrene is the same plastic with bubbles of usually either pentane or HFC-134a gas in it.  The risks of either gas are basically from asphyxiation from displacement of oxygen.  There is not enough gas in foam sheets, even if you could somehow liberate it all instantaneously, to asphyxiate a mammal in the enclosed space the size of something like a van.

Your exposure to either HFC compounds or chemically similar gaseous fuel compounds is orders of magnitude higher from butane stoves, propane bottles, and residential refrigerant leakage from refrigerators and air conditioners over time.

The precursor, styrene, is toxic in high doses, and can damage the eyes in particular.  It is a liquid compound. This compound is naturally occurring in small quantities in coffee, peanuts, and cinnamon - also found in the sweetgum tree from which is was originally isolated.

Polystyrene is flammable, and the fumes from almost all flammable organic compounds are toxic, such as plastics, long-chain hydrocarbon fuels, wood, and other plant cellulose materials.  The few things that I can think of that are fairly non-toxic while oxidized at high temperatures ("burned") in Earth atmosphere are hydrogen and to a limited degree near-complete combustion of the short-chain ethane gasses, like propane, butane, methane, etc.

 

[DrJean]

There's a foam board that's fireproof it's got the name "red" in it... found it at a home depot but not all of them...

If you use certain spray paint on Styrofoam then you'll have some outgassing!

 

[rvpopeye]

Wouldn't the paint seal the foam?
......but then what seals the paint..........

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[DannyB1954]

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/toxic-traps-when-these-7-types-plastic-are-dangerous
The dangers from plastic are not just from ingestion. During the industrial manufacturing of plastic, all manner of toxic chemicals are released, many of which are carcinogenic or neurotoxic. These would include vinyl chloride, from PVC; dioxins and benzene, from polystyrene; and formaldehyde, from polycarbonates. Many of these toxins are known as POPs, or persistent organic pollutants. They are highly toxic, and like plastic, they don’t easily go away.

http://www.sustainableartstudents.org/styrofoam.html
Styrofoam
Styrofoam, as known as polystyrene (petroleum-based plastic), is a world wide everyday product for its lightweight and great insulation for any type of hot or cold element like coffee. However, many people do not realize polystyrene can be very bad for the environment as well as an individuals health.
Environmental Risks
The EPA and the International Agency for Research on Cancer has ”established styrene as a possible human carcinogen."

https://www.buildinggreen.com/blog/avoid-polystyrene-insulation
This brings us to the issue of polystyrene insulation. Recent concerns have been raised about the brominated flame retardant HBCD (hexabromocyclododecane for the organic chemists among us)—see Flame Retardant Used in Polystyrene to be Banned by EU—that is found in all polystyrene insulation, both extruded (XPS) and expanded (EPS). HBCD may not (yet) be a household word like bisphenol-A has become, but it's been raising plenty of concern.
There is now enough evidence that HBCD is hazardous to both human health and the environment that European agencies are moving to restrict its use. Based on this concern—along with better-understood concerns about the primary constituents of polystyrene plastic (benzene and styrene especially)—we now recommend that XPS and EPS should be avoided as long as doing so will not compromise energy performance.

This site is also leary of it's use https://foursevenfive.com/why-foam-fails-reason-1-dangerous-toxic-ingredients/
“The chemicals are released during the product life cycle and move into the environment, humans and animals. Such halogenated flame retardants act by releasing active halogen atoms (called free radicals) which can quench the chemical reactions occurring in the flame. HBCD and TCPP are used additively, which means they are not chemically bonded to foam and have the potential to migrate out. They can enter the environment as releases during chemical and product manufacturing, as well as leaching from products during use and disposal.”

The same study comes to the astonishing conclusion that flame retardants, while poisoning our planet and our bodies, have been shown to be ineffective.

 

[AngryVanMan]

If you regularly ride in any modern car or eat meat you will never be able to meaningfully limit your exposure to brominated flame retardants or plastic based endocrine disruptors, period.  This stuff is in nearly everything you touch, wear, sit on, sleep on - and if you do eat animal products, that's your single largest vector for exposure to these particular POPs, - "over 90% of exposure comes from animal product foods due to bioaccumulation in fat tissues and bioaccumulate through the food chain."  Your choice of insulation (or in this case, cabinet substrate) is one of the very, very few uses of plastics that you encapsulate inside of something else, so that you are not in contact with it on a daily basis, potentially never even seeing or touching the product again. 


There are no studies to indicate that polystyrene foam is more, or less, dangerous than your car seat or your chicken dinner - all of which contain all the same exact flame retardants and endocrine disruptors mentioned, in similar quantities, although the chicken dinner probably has the highest concentration of the three.  There are only two places on planet Earth where these chemicals have not (yet) been found - above the Arctic Circle and Antarctica.

Fear-mongering hyperbolic bunk sauce hooey, that's my opinion.

 

[DannyB1954]

OK, no point in being careful as we are doomed anyway. Make yourself a styrofoam ice chest to live in.

 

[AngryVanMan]

I basically agree, but apply the Pareto principal, or you'll end up applying 80% of the effort in avoidance to get 20% of the results. There is no doubt plastics and POPs are a concern for people and animals, and we may even find out the ones discussed here are linked to adult onset human health conditions - but we have very little actual data on that right now. Basically, we only have high confidence-interval data on where the exposure risks are at in our environment. It's still good to be aware of what we do know, otherwise you can't even begin to make an informed decision.

Unfortunately the only significant adult-risk data we have is on high doses of the precursor chemicals (like styrene) which you'd only be exposing yourself to if you 1) work in a plastics manufacturing facility, 2) burn the plastics, 3) store food in plastic over long periods of time, or if you microwave or heat your food in plastics hot enough to de-polymerize them. The scare tactics are not that useful when real scientific data is easy enough to get these days. There is a reason these particular chemicals do not appear on MSDS sheets - they aren't in the finished product, and plastics don't biodegrade into component parts easily - which is why they require stressors like heat/UV light/solvents to break down. Also why they are a problem in our waste disposal chain...

There are lots of real, common sources of dangerous chemicals in high doses like formaldehyde and benzene that you can avoid, like wood smoke - which is the #2 source of benzene exposure behind industrial manufacturing, and has plenty of carcinogens in high doses to worry about while you're sitting around the campfire.

 

[DrJean]

I am pretty environment conscious, especially when it's "my" environment! Danny, that's called a coffin I think---and they do have such builds for cheap coffins (it's what my mom wanted!) hahahaha

I'm back to hanging shaped baskets at the roof and placing cloth cubes in them, I think. But since the lower floor plan has had to change, I probably (?) will use this method for the shelving build over the wheel wells and maybe for the "kitchen sink" unless I buy one of those modular kitchen wire framing from IKEA...

BUT now I'm thinking this may be great for creating the panels for the walls below the windows! I spent a few hours, again, on the internet last night going link to link to link (we ALL know how that goes...) and realized that the Big Box home build stores sell corrugated cardboard for really high cost. Cardboard! I'm in the Miami area and there is at least one manufacturer of cardboard right here; I'm also acquaintances with a guy who owns an acrylic business right here too...

Why use styrofoam when you can use cardboard? I mean, me. Not sure of the sog factor and number of coats or how thin they might have to be with the Gripper... but put the nylon screen onto the cardboard? Put the Prodex on the inside of the cardboard and the Gripper on the outside of the cardboard and place into wall cavity (yeah, probably place a barrier on the metal van walls themselves first.) And I'd want to seal the ends of corrugated cardboard if I don't use thick one layer stuff. Bugs love corrugated condo living.

What do you think?

 

[Vanada]

Glidden Gripper is yet another thing that can't be found in stores in Canada. I went to Home Depot and explained to the process to the guy who was really interested by the whole deal. In the end he recommended Zinsser Peel Stop Plus: https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.zinsser-peel-stop-plus.1000750755.html?autoSuggest=pip

I'm a tad concerned it won't be up to the task. Can only try it and see I guess, although I have the receipt and it is yet unopened so if there's something better...

 

[AndrewB]

The original method uses thinned waterproof wood glue (Titebond II) + canvas tarps or bed sheets instead of gripper/fiberglass screen. I am sure there are some Canadians in that forum as well if you are looking to source local materials.
http://tnttt.com/viewforum.php?f=55

 

[Raven+Squid]

Via Vacavis thanks for the ideas and testing!

 

[Dirk Mitchell]

I saw these videos a while back and that is a great weight saving idea for sure. I am planning on building my bed platform out of wood and then the cabinets will be a combination of wood and foam. I am planning on having a living/working Van so I will probably make the lower cabinets out of wood since they will probably get bumped a bit. I am planning on the foam method on everything that is above about 18 inches off the floor. Someone mentioned it in a reply but there will be one long span on the passenger side so I will probably do a wood bottom in it to make it rigid.