Rattlesnake Avoidance Training

[StarEcho]

I've been staying in Buckeye Regional Park for a while off and on and this time managed to score a prime spot at the end of Robbins road.  Kili loves going for walks and roaming but since I had heard about the rattlesnake dangers I've been keeping him close to me and leashing him all the time.  Here is is at our campsite laying in the shade.

This morning I signed him up for Rattlesnake avoidance training with a company in New River, AZ
http://www.vipervoidance.com/home.html

Well anyway, this afternoon, shortly after this picture, Kili roused himself and brought me his ball for me to throw.  So I did several times and one of those times it bounced off a bit so I went to get it and almost stepped on this:

[img=680x383]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/R...kbZZnDbGI0WW9BOxO5N0iTISw=w1006-h566-no[/img]

The really weird thing was after I came down from jumping a mile up and the screaming echoes died down, and I hustled Kili into the trailer, and thank you goddess that he actually listened to me this time!... the snake was in exactly the same position.  No movement whatsoever.  None.  I took this picture standing on the picnic table.  I threw a couple stones at it from the table and again, no movement whatsoever.  I thought maybe it was dead, but couldn't figure out how it could have died.  Trying to figure out when the heck it died there because it sure as heck wasn't there earlier in the day.  And almost throwing up at the thought that Kili was laying very close to that snake????

Luckily I wasn't stupid enough to get close to it because after I went inside to look up info on typical behavior of rattlesnakes and came back outside it was gone.  Shivers.....

So now I'm counting the hours until Sunday and hoping that Kili is a dog who will benefit from this training and not be hardheaded.  And I'm absolutely DREADING taking Kili out for his evening walk....

 

[SoulRaven]

Glad things out like they did! Thank goodness! Maybe you both need a course in rattlesnake avoidance. We walked in the desert many times and even lived out in the county in AZ desert and never saw one, doesn't mean they weren't there. I tend to talk constantly, so maybe they heard me and went the other way? Read up and see what you can learn, the more you understand them, the safer you will be.

 

[Wabbit]

Glad to hear no one was hurt. About the company you linked, why did you choose them? Anyone able chime in or start a thread about snake training? I want a dog,but first I have to build my van out. Saying that, I read a post on here awhile ago about rattle snake training and they were pleased(if I recall right) with the outcome. Price was approx the same. Thnx!

 

[Dgorila1]

How do you teach a dog to avoid rattlesnakes? If it moves....squirrel, rat, cat...anything small my dogs will go after it! Strong prey drive. I don;t know how you can train that out of them in a short time. It's in their genes!

 

[Wabbit]

If I remember right, it was the "smell" and a slight stimulation(shock) if they(dog) approached. How other companies do it no idea.(not talking about company linked in first post).

 

[dragonflyinthesky]

There is also a rattlesnake vaccine. It may or may not work. Ivy is getting a booster in Blythe next week. Do some reading, there are pros and cons and conflicting reports. I would rather she have so I can feel I did the best I could.

We have run across one I know of. She walked stiff legged around it. Another dog in camp ran across one last week and jumped back and avoided it. Those snakes made a lot of noise and stood their ground. No running no prey drive for the dogs maybe, not sure.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

We've had threads on this before.  Be sure to read the Truck Camper Magazine article referenced in this thread:

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Dogs-in-snake-country

 

[IanC]

Interesting that it happened in Buckeye - a great spot isn't it? I was there about a month ago. We were taking our hike around 4pm - just coming out of a wash when I heard the rattle. I had never heard one before and thought it was a noise my phone was making. As I was reaching in my pocket, I caught a glimpse of the snake about 10 feet behind me whipping back and forth (so I must have walked right by it). Fortunately Todd hadn't seen it because I know he would have gone to check it out. We high tailed it out of there pronto. It made me paranoid for a couple of days - I considered packing up and leaving. A couple, not far from me had small kids and I saw them playing up on the hills - kind of scary. Now I only walk when it's cool in the morning. Buckeye has tons of burrows (under almost every bush, it seems) so there must be a lt of rodents and therefore a lot of snakes. Telling the story to other people, I haven't run into anyone who has even seen a rattlesnake, so fortunately my (and your) experience must be uncommon. Arizona is the number one state for snake bites and this is the biggest time of the year for them.

BTW a saw several snake tracks in the ravine at Ehrenberg too.

 

[StarEcho]

I know to make noise walking out and about. This snake actually came into my campsite to share the shade I guess.... It made no noise whatsoever. This picnic table, set into concrete and covered with a roof was less than 6 feet from where the snake lay. This was all against what I'd heard and read. It froze in place and refused to moved. Played dead? More scared of me than me of it? No rattling that's for sure. Everything I'd read said that snakes did not want to confront so to give them an out, but this one wouldn't move while I was anywhere in the vicinity. Maybe thought I was a big eagle or something and didn't want to catch my eye? (see what I did there? lol)

Re prey drive, that is also what I am concerned about, so we will see. The man at vipervoidance said that it was the smell that would deter them. They would associate that smell with VERY BAD THINGS, aka a rather intense shock. Normally I wouldn't do the shock thing, but in this case I'd rather be mean for a few minutes and save him a bite (and maybe myself).

I asked the vet here at the Phoenix humane society if I should get the vaccine and she said no, it wasn't effective enough for the cost in her opinion. And I'd still have to bring him in if he got bit....

The Tucson humane society conducts training sessions and I was going to sign up for one of those but the Phoenix humane society recommends the company I referenced so I went with them.

I more wanted to share my story than anything. I was so freaked and lost that feeling of safety. Sorry if it bored some of you.

 

[StarEcho]

Interesting that it happened in Buckeye - a great spot isn't it?  I was there about a month ago.  We were taking our hike around 4pm - just coming out of a wash when I heard the rattle.  I had never heard one before and thought it was a noise my phone was making.  As I was reaching in my pocket, I caught a glimpse of the snake about 10 feet behind me whipping back and forth (so I must have walked right by it).  Fortunately Todd hadn't seen it because I know he would have gone to check it out.  We high tailed it out of there pronto.  It made me paranoid for a couple of days - I considered packing up and leaving.  A couple, not far from me had small kids and I saw them playing up on the hills - kind of scary. Now I only walk when it's cool in the morning.  Buckeye has tons of burrows (under almost every bush, it seems) so there must be a lt of rodents and therefore a lot of snakes.  Telling the story to other people, I haven't run into anyone who has even seen a rattlesnake, so fortunately my (and your) experience must be uncommon. Arizona is the number one state for snake bites and this is the biggest time of the year for them.

BTW a saw several snake tracks in the ravine at Ehrenberg too.

Actually Ian, your post about Ehrenberg referencing Buckeye was what got me thinking about rattlesnakes and after that I started leashing Kili all the time for all his walks and even by the campsite.  What worries me is that he was leashed at the time in the campsite and it wouldn't have helped as the snake came into the campsite right by the picnic table so I can totally see Kili thinking, oooooh, mommy got me a new toy! 

I had made the appointment for the training for Kili that morning, but it was more because I was planning to stop at this rocky place south of Bowie, AZ to camp on the long way back home to Colorado.  I really wasn't thinking about Buckeye per se, but the only thing that has me not packing up right now is the fact that snakes are all around so being scared of them won't help.  I'll just have to be even more vigilant about watching all about. 

The price one has to pay for the beauty of the desert, I guess.  Oh well.

 

[Queen]

I'd still be standing on the picnic table, man I hate snakes!!

 

[SoulRaven]

Oh, Cindi, I appreciate your story and the photos. Although I find snakes generally undesirable, I love to see them in photos or from a safe vantage point. We used to go to the Sonoran Desert Museum in Tucson and see snakes behind glass, live ones and sometimes one of the docents would be doing a demonstration with one. The docent would say "Would you like to touch it?" "Ah, no thank you." I don't care whether it is poisonous or not, it is a snake!

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I more wanted to share my story than anything.  I was so freaked and lost that feeling of safety.  Sorry if it bored some of you.

If that was aimed at my saying we've had threads on this before, I assure you I wasn't bored.  Sorry if it came across that way.

I'm aware of the fact that a lot of new people don't read through all the old threads (who has the time/bandwidth?) and I thought some of the other posts would be worthwhile to people interested in this subject, that's all.

I'm glad you're getting the training.  I just lost a long owned and treasured cat to illness.  It's bad enough when it's something you can't prevent, but it must be really horrible when you know it's something you COULD have prevented but didn't.

Stay safe!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

. . . I tend to talk constantly, so maybe they heard me and went the other way?  Read up and see what you can learn, the more you understand them, the safer you will be.

Although there is some evidence that snakes can sense air vibrations, snakes don't have ears in the mammal sense.  Their 'hearing' mechanism is along their lower jaw; sensitive to pick up ground vibrations.  So I get more aggressive with my heel plant and hit the ground with my walking stick when out in snake country.  I also keep Simon on a shorter leash.  I have also thought about snake avoidance training.

http://snakesarelong.blogspot.com/2015/09/can-snakes-hear.html

 -- Spiff

 

[Thirsty Boots Nomad]

I asked the vet here at the Phoenix humane society if I should get the vaccine and she said no, it wasn't effective enough for the cost in her opinion.  And I'd still have to bring him in if he got bit....

From what I understand, the "vaccine" is the same antivenom (which is the same for humans and animals) as the treatment for a snake bite; so while you still have to get to a vet for more treatment, have a larger time window before death.  Even an extra 10 or 20 minutes difference (which you get) would be enough for me to consider it effective enough ...

 

[wagoneer]

Friend has a claim in north Nevada and Rattlers come from all around to rut (breed) to that location even wearing my snake boots I rather stay away the turquoise can wait.

 

[azmike9]

I took my dog "Arizona" to the viper training 3 years ago. What they do is put a shock collar on your dog. Then they have a couple cages set up. One is empty and one has a couple rattlesnakes in it. You walk your dog near the empty cage first and your dog can sniff around it. Then you walk your dog near the cage with rattlesnakes when the dog goes to sniff, it gets hit with a shock. The dog is then supposed to associate the rattlesnakes smell with a very bad experience (the shock). I believe that it works.
Of course, after getting Arizona trained, we did not see any snakes that year. About 18 months later we were hiking and he went off the trail and stopped about 12 feet ahead of me looking at a bush. There was a rattlesnake in the bush. He did not go near it.

 

[GotSmart]

I grew up in the country, and catching snakes was something we did.  
Pin it down with a stick, and grab it behind the head.  

In Missouri we have Hognose snakes.  They roll over and play dead.  The problem is when you flip them over, they roll back.  We had some speckeled hens, and they would attack the Copperheads and kill them.  They left the Hognose alone.  It would not react to getting pecked.

 

[bigsallysmom]

It's a good reason for not having headphones on while walking.

 

[highdesertranger]

it's always a go idea not to wear headphones. one day at the ranch we were watching a Red Tail eating a bunny in the road. the road was closed to vehicles but a large number of people would hike on it. so as we were watching Mr. Hawk have lunch an urban outdoorsman was hiking down the road heading right for the hawk. he was oblivious to the whole situation. we tried to get his attention, first by talking normal to him, he was ignoring us. we then noticed he had head phones on, so we started yelling at him. no good he didn't even look our way. by this time he was getting real close to the hawk and it appeared he would step on it. so my buddy ran out in front of him in his line of sight and started having his arms and yelling this got his attention but also scared the hawk. by this time he was like 2 steps from the hawk. the guy stopped and the hawk flew off leaving the rabbit. the guy just looked at us with a stupid look on his face and stepped around the rabbit and just kept going. my buddy came back to were we where watching and a few minutes later the hawk came back, this time he grabbed the rabbit and flew about 20 yards off the trail and continued eating. some people.

my dog barks at snakes and stays a safe distance I guess because they don't run away. it's no fun chasing something if it doesn't run away. highdesertranger