Thank you all for the information. The only water I am concerned with is shower water. My dish water is contained in 7 gallon containers that gets disposed of in appropriate places. At our property, we have a small DIY septic tank (county approved to handle the sink water) and the shower water feeds the trees. We use a composting toilet, so "black" waste is taken care of.
Question About Showering on BLM Land
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BelgianPup
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I've never tried it in the desert, but I am thinking of digging waste water holes using a San Angelo bar and a posthole digger, about 2 feet deep. Let it absorb into the soil, then just refill with the original soil.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I like it. After getting set up at camp sites where it's possible, the post hole diggers come out. One hole for human waste, and another hole for gray water. Desert caliche and other hard soils get a piece of rebar and big hammer treatment. Thanks for the San Angelo bar hint.
I try another spot for large rocks and tree roots. There are thin, lightweight post hole diggers, and heavy models. Heavy cuts through things better. Most are longer than I need, so the handles get shortened. An old folding chair bag fits nicely on the dirty end.
Close attention would be required after leaving for most people to recognize. Unfortunately, I've raked others poop and toilet paper into holes also.
I try another spot for large rocks and tree roots. There are thin, lightweight post hole diggers, and heavy models. Heavy cuts through things better. Most are longer than I need, so the handles get shortened. An old folding chair bag fits nicely on the dirty end.
Close attention would be required after leaving for most people to recognize. Unfortunately, I've raked others poop and toilet paper into holes also.
Malamute
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Its been mentioned that grey water is sewage, period. Well, not really. In some agencies definitions, it may well be, and its not a bad thing in their situation. They dont have any way to easily distinguish between grey and black water, and people being people, many would claim any release was grey, but its not as clear cut of a distinction in other ways. Disposal of greywater has different requirements in different places, besides federally regulated recreation lands and its an evolving situation.
When I first had a cabin in the frozen wastelands in the northern rockies, it was fine to discharge grey water on the ground on private property in the 1990s, so i did. I had an outhouse, so no actual septic system. I checked with the county and there was no restriction at that time and place if it wasnt near waterways or a well. Some years later the state established greywater use and disposal regulatons, which are very different than black water rules. The result of my grey water discharge was the grass grew nicely in that area. It was sandy, gravelly soil with an incline, it didnt pool up, just ran off and dispersed into the ground and evaporated.
Anyways, this is just a clarifying note to some reading this thread that may be horrified that some cretins may be discharging or disposing of "sewage" in a manner they think may be dangerous, when its not, when properly done. On BLM lands, yes, thats the rules. Live by them. In the rest of the world, no, people arent doing the same as dumping black water out into the world and creating disease potential that black water or human sewage would.
Some info on greywater issues
https://greywateraction.org/greywater-codes-and-policy/
When I first had a cabin in the frozen wastelands in the northern rockies, it was fine to discharge grey water on the ground on private property in the 1990s, so i did. I had an outhouse, so no actual septic system. I checked with the county and there was no restriction at that time and place if it wasnt near waterways or a well. Some years later the state established greywater use and disposal regulatons, which are very different than black water rules. The result of my grey water discharge was the grass grew nicely in that area. It was sandy, gravelly soil with an incline, it didnt pool up, just ran off and dispersed into the ground and evaporated.
Anyways, this is just a clarifying note to some reading this thread that may be horrified that some cretins may be discharging or disposing of "sewage" in a manner they think may be dangerous, when its not, when properly done. On BLM lands, yes, thats the rules. Live by them. In the rest of the world, no, people arent doing the same as dumping black water out into the world and creating disease potential that black water or human sewage would.
Some info on greywater issues
https://greywateraction.org/greywater-codes-and-policy/
If you are looking for a black colored hand pressure pump garden type of sprayer you can get them in 1 or 2 or 3 gallon size from the “Chapin International” store on Amazon. That store also sells replacement parts for the various gaskets, hose and sprayer nozzles. That makes it a better longevity choice of product when you can obtain replacement parts.
The neck of the container bottle does have a wider opening than some other brands so there is a possibility of opening the top cap and dropping in a rechargeableb battery operated spray unit. Of course do double check the dimensions for that purpose before making purchases.
The neck of the container bottle does have a wider opening than some other brands so there is a possibility of opening the top cap and dropping in a rechargeableb battery operated spray unit. Of course do double check the dimensions for that purpose before making purchases.
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I had read that the issue with greywater was the desert conditions. After reading your post I did a brief search and found something to that effect on Burning Man's website. It said that because the temp is so high in the desert, greywater quickly becomes blackwater.
A small amount of bacteria in shower water is not the major issue with dumping shower water. No need to go off on that tangent track in this discussion. The soap you use for showering, be it all natural or otherwise, kills most of it anyway.
Malamute
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Do you think you could find that source?
It doesnt make sense that grey water, meaning dish water and bathing water, could turn into black water with human waste in it and the possible related diseases associated with such.
It may in fact get funky, but thats not the same as black water.
At the cabin I used to live in with the grey water going out on the ground I couldnt tell any difference in the summer when it was 90s to over 100 degrees, though the dragon flies seemed to like it. I think they hunted bugs that were near the damp area, even though there was a mountain creek a couple hundred yards away. I also couldnt tell any difference with the Winnebago I lived in off and on over a several years while building cabins. All the grey water went straight out on the ground. The dogs or wildlife never seemed very interested in it, I didnt wash chunks of food down it.
Edit: just saw Makis post above RE bactaria. In a dry environment like most of the mountain west and southwest is that the water dries and/or soaks into the ground so fast its hard to figure it could get too funky. Its possible it may be more of a concern in areas of high humidity that the grey water wouldnt be gone so quickly, I have no experience in that type environment.
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Burning man attracts a wide range of people who likely have never taken even one class on microbiology. That definitely is not a reliable reference source on that particular topic. There will be some well educated persons camping there but unless they stated their credentials in that report it is anyone’s guess if that was an accurate statement or an erroneous assumption. The second being statistically much more likely than the first given the current state of internet misinformation.
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When you do a search on this topic all the discussions are from other RV nomad and campers. If you truly want to know what is permitted or not then contact the NFS or BLM. Otherwise it is all just people who have no authority over what you do discussing what they think it means and what they themselves do or think you should be doing.
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§ 8365.1-1 Sanitation.
(a) Whenever practicable, visitors shall pack their trash for disposal at home.(b) On all public lands, no person shall, unless otherwise authorized:
(1) Dispose of any cans, bottles and other nonflammable trash and garbage except in designated places or receptacles;
(2) Dispose of flammable trash or garbage except by burning in authorized fires, or disposal in designated places or receptacles;
(3) Drain sewage or petroleum products or dump refuse or waste other than wash water from any trailer or other vehicle except in places or receptacles provided for that purpose;
(4) Dispose of any household, commercial or industrial refuse or waste brought as such from private or municipal property;
(5) Pollute or contaminate water supplies or water used for human consumption; or
(6) Use a refuse container or disposal facility for any purpose other than for which it is supplied.
The regulation does not specifically define, “wash water”, but it is understood to mean any water that was used for washing purposes (i.e. hands, dishes, showering, clothes, brushing teeth, etc.), which meets the definition of gray water, or water from a gray tank. Generally, as long as your gray tank contains water that was used for washing, it’s legal to dump it on the ground.
bullfrog !
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^^^Item 5 comes into play as the geography of the desert contains many washes. It can be difficult to find an area an appropriate distance from a wash. I would imagine many modern RVs use the same main gate valve and hose for black tank dumping as they do grey water. If I were still a ranger I would certainly investigate anyone dumping tanks within 500’ of a wash and request they use the nearest dump station. If it is only a few gallons of shower water catch it in a cheap tarp and let it evaporate or drain it into a container and use it to insure your campfire is extinguished before throwing some dirt on top of the wet fire pit with a shovel.
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That's true for most BLM sites except sites that have facilities. For those offering facilities for campers the rules for that particular site must be posted at the entrance. Has anyone seen the rules posted in, or near, Quartzsite?
Land Management should clarify this.
Last night I found YT vids where the content creators said they researched the topic. They pointed out the distinction between wilderness type BLM land and BLM locations that provide facilities.
I'll find the links.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/8365.2
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https://burningman.org/event/preparation/playa-living/gray-water/~~~~~
In Arizona, for example, shower water or “wash” water is legal to dump while kitchen water, which is classified as sewage, is not. But federal organizations can sometimes impose even stricter regulations. For instance, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), now prohibits the dumping of any kind of gray water in the areas they manage. Confusing matters further is the fact that state regulations sometimes takes precedence over federal rules and vice versa. As an example, below are the rules for boondocking or dispersed camping in the Coconino National Forest from the official website (note the state and federal laws cited):
See: https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/boondocking-and-gray-water-disposa/
~~~~~
No, you cannot legally dump gray water on the ground in Arizona, unless you hold a permit. The State has laws under the Environmental Code that prohibit anyone from “discharging” waste water and sewage on to the ground. These laws cover the entire State of Arizona with the exception of indian reservations and national parks.
See: https://www.boondockersbible.com/knowledgebase/can-i-dump-gray-water-on-the-ground-in-arizona/
~~~~~
No matter what people’s perception is of Burning Man, we feel each time we visit we have a renewed spirit of outside-the-box thinking when it comes to wild camping. Where else in the world do 70,000 people converge onto the desert in the middle of nowhere and live completely off the grid and fully self-reliant? The extreme weather and leave no trace mentality pushes some people to create inventive ways to dispose of their waste, and that’s exactly what we’re talking about here.
See: https://www.gonewiththewynns.com/eliminating-graywater-burning-man
~~~~~
What is Researchgate? Lots of scientic research links re greywater disposal there. M..ost results say increased plant growth but the soil is polluted... sometimes with eColi and Salmonella
https://www.researchgate.net/public...-term_greywater_disposal_on_soil_A_case_study~~~~~
RV gray water is not harmless. If it comes into contact with other people or pets at recreational areas, it can be harmful to them. Gray water carries food particles, bacteria, pathogens, and viruses that can cause illness and disease. Even our best attempts at cleaning dinner plates before rinsing them in the RV kitchen sink don’t eliminate that risk. [includes link to PBS]
https://letsrv.com/the-rv-gray-water-dumping-guide/
In Arizona, for example, shower water or “wash” water is legal to dump while kitchen water, which is classified as sewage, is not. But federal organizations can sometimes impose even stricter regulations. For instance, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), now prohibits the dumping of any kind of gray water in the areas they manage. Confusing matters further is the fact that state regulations sometimes takes precedence over federal rules and vice versa. As an example, below are the rules for boondocking or dispersed camping in the Coconino National Forest from the official website (note the state and federal laws cited):
See: https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/boondocking-and-gray-water-disposa/
~~~~~
No, you cannot legally dump gray water on the ground in Arizona, unless you hold a permit. The State has laws under the Environmental Code that prohibit anyone from “discharging” waste water and sewage on to the ground. These laws cover the entire State of Arizona with the exception of indian reservations and national parks.
See: https://www.boondockersbible.com/knowledgebase/can-i-dump-gray-water-on-the-ground-in-arizona/
~~~~~
No matter what people’s perception is of Burning Man, we feel each time we visit we have a renewed spirit of outside-the-box thinking when it comes to wild camping. Where else in the world do 70,000 people converge onto the desert in the middle of nowhere and live completely off the grid and fully self-reliant? The extreme weather and leave no trace mentality pushes some people to create inventive ways to dispose of their waste, and that’s exactly what we’re talking about here.
See: https://www.gonewiththewynns.com/eliminating-graywater-burning-man
~~~~~
What is Researchgate? Lots of scientic research links re greywater disposal there. M..ost results say increased plant growth but the soil is polluted... sometimes with eColi and Salmonella
https://www.researchgate.net/public...-term_greywater_disposal_on_soil_A_case_study~~~~~
RV gray water is not harmless. If it comes into contact with other people or pets at recreational areas, it can be harmful to them. Gray water carries food particles, bacteria, pathogens, and viruses that can cause illness and disease. Even our best attempts at cleaning dinner plates before rinsing them in the RV kitchen sink don’t eliminate that risk. [includes link to PBS]
https://letsrv.com/the-rv-gray-water-dumping-guide/
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In BLM developed campgrounds, like LaPosa, the rules are supposed to be posted at the entrance.
With this topic you have to gather info from multiple sources and figure out the truth, since the BLM has failed to clarify the rule(s).
Eg. Reading articles from nomads and campers led me to the idea that the BLM distinguishes between wilderness boondocking and camping in developed BLM campgrounds. They were right. Different rules for each. And the rules state that for developed campgrounds the rules must be posted at the entrance.
§ 8365.2 Developed recreation sites and areas.
The rules governing conduct and use of a developed recreation site or area shall be posted at a conspicuous location near the entrance to the site or area.
bullfrog !
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Most do have informational kiosks which most people don’t bother to find or read if they do. The headquarters or regional offices web sites to have contact numbers to ask questions. Rangers have discretion in my experiences and usually give warning tickets in many if not all circumstances before citing. Because of the lack of officers it is usually not a question of what you can or can’t do, it is more a question of how committed you are to not disturbing or polluting our shared public lands. Simply stated “if you carry it in, carry it out with you” because the more public lands are disturbed and polluted the more those areas will need to be closed to the public and more areas will restrict the public use because there are not enough officers to enforce the rules.
Don't know.
IMO, one should be discrete about it. I repurpose an empty 2 1/2 gallon DEF container for my gray water.
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RonDean
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I would suggest that we/they are not being specific enough about what constitutes "graywater." And there is also a difference between posted and published rules and any logical possible harm. Not to mention the quantity of water we are talking about and the exact locations of disposal. For example, I am pretty sure that there are no food bits in most shower water. However, there may be some in that cold half cup of coffee or stale beer we pour out without thinking or (obviously) in dish water.
maki2 made a good point when she said what is "permitted" and exactly who we use as sources. Many rules are written to avoid worse case scenarios and are not always logically valid in all circumstances. That does not change the fact that they may still be not permitted. For myself, I will try my best to follow all the rules without going to extremes about it. If a ranger wants to evict me for pouring my half cup of coffee on the ground, I'll take that risk. As far as my gallon of shower water? I'll take the 5th.
maki2 made a good point when she said what is "permitted" and exactly who we use as sources. Many rules are written to avoid worse case scenarios and are not always logically valid in all circumstances. That does not change the fact that they may still be not permitted. For myself, I will try my best to follow all the rules without going to extremes about it. If a ranger wants to evict me for pouring my half cup of coffee on the ground, I'll take that risk. As far as my gallon of shower water? I'll take the 5th.
