Portable Micro Hydro Power: Split from solar thread

[flailer]

Thanks for bringing Hydro power into the discussion MrBob. I scanned the forum and saw little on the topic.

I am considering a small, portable, micro-hydro power generation system. I know, it sounds crazy, but I am willing to explore it, at least on paper.

And, so far, it doesn't sound any more expensive, dollar-wise, than solar, EXCEPT for the regular maintenance & check ups. But hey, they are not solid state devices -- & as such they are FAR GREENER than solar!! (put that in your pipe and smoke it)

I have several camp-out locations that I LOVE, but because are heavily treed solar doesn't do diddly-swat, but they do have (very) small creeks, with lots of fall (no fish of any kind). Using my generator is not ideal, and in fact has forced me back to town for more fuel (blaaah)

-One site has 200' of fall, & (in this drought) the spring is producing ~5 gals/min (estimated).
-Another has an even greater fall, but the flow rate (again a spring), while year-round, is much-much lower (light charging is better than no charging)
-Another has Massive flow (huge spring, 100+ gals/min?) but access to the headwaters is still a question to be addressed. The area was developed, is now abandoned, must be private property, but REALLY needs a care-taker or at least a watch-person... for which I hereby nominate myself !!! lol

Is anyone else interested in micro hydro power?

 

[akrvbob]

Looking back at my travels over he last 6 years in the west, I'd say there were very, very few ties I could have used any hydro at all. I did spend one summer camped on a pretty fast creek, it probably would have worked. And my campground in the Sierras had a very small creek running through it I doubt it would have worked. But that's a very small percentage of time.

Besides that, what kind of rules would there be on public land for hydro, does anybody know? What's the Ranger going to say when he finds it? I bet it's not good!

Unless you own it, private property would also be out so exactly where would you use hydro?

Bob

 

[LeeRevell]

Somewhere I saw plans for a submerged system (turbine type) that only showed a cable coming out of the water. That would be pretty 'stealth'. But a system big enough to provide decent power would be far too big for "vannin' ".

 

[flailer]

Yes. You guys are coming in loud n clear.
The 100 or 200 ft of water lines, needed to create head (pressure) required, is prohibitive to portability (considering the size of most rigs)
Link 100ft lengths

 

[flailer]

No other interest in Hydro power, eh?

I thought the hosing packed down pretty darn small. (my last post, above)

Note that a hydro-generator is small too. Much smaller than a solar panel.
Boxy yes, but still less than 2ft x 2ft x 2ft. LINKYLINK example

Also, one would still would need all the same batteries & controller that are standard to solar.

In a portable system setting it up & breaking it down would be a pain! That much is clear.

again, I'm still at the point of scratching this out on paper.

 

[headinthetrees]

Thanks for bringing Hydro power into the discussion MrBob. I scanned the forum and saw little on the topic.

I am considering a small, portable, micro-hydro power generation system. I know, it sounds crazy, but I am willing to explore it, at least on paper.

And, so far, it doesn't sound any more expensive, dollar-wise, than solar, EXCEPT for the regular maintenance & check ups. But hey, they are not solid state devices -- & as such they are FAR GREENER than solar!! (put that in your pipe and smoke it)

I have several camp-out locations that I LOVE, but because are heavily treed solar doesn't do diddly-swat, but they do have (very) small creeks, with lots of fall (no fish of any kind). Using my generator is not ideal, and in fact has forced me back to town for more fuel (blaaah)

-One site has 200' of fall, & (in this drought) the spring is producing ~5 gals/min (estimated).
-Another has an even greater fall, but the flow rate (again a spring), while year-round, is much-much lower (light charging is better than no charging)
-Another has Massive flow (huge spring, 100+ gals/min?) but access to the headwaters is still a question to be addressed. The area was developed, is now abandoned, must be private property, but REALLY needs a care-taker or at least a watch-person... for which I hereby nominate myself !!! lol

Is anyone else interested in micro hydro power?

I was planning to do some micro hydro on the property I used to own. It was set up perfectly for it, over 200' of fall, year round spring. But making such a system portable seems pretty daunting. For that 200' of fall I'd need 1500'+ of pipe which is a lot to cart around. Especially because to make any decent amount of power you'd need 2" or larger pipe.

As for solar, I still believe its more efficient in the long run. Claims on panels dying in 5 years are bs, there's plenty that have 20-30+ year track records. And not to mention there is delivery cost in standard grid power. Anytime you push electrons around you create heat, which results in efficiency loss. Might not seem like a lot, but sometimes your power is coming from hundreds of miles away. Hear those high voltage lines buzzing? That's loss. Now if the power is made on your rooftop you eliminate that. In addition you may provide excess which can be sold locally to your neighbors. In the extreme case of boondocking, you now save yourself from having to DRIVE a combustion vehicle to get whatever fuel you use to make your power, or replace power by a more low-tech means. For those that live too far away from the grid, there are hidden costs in NOT having solar.

 

[highdesertranger]

I really see a lot of problems with the small hydro. I will not go into that here. flailer I have a lot of experience with discharge hose the blue hose you linked to is not very good. it is unreinforced, it's thin wall, it's not recommended for any type of pressure which you want. that is the whole idea for the head pressure. I would go one step up to the red like this http://www.hosecraftusa.com/model/PD2_PVC_Heavy_Duty_Laflat_Discharge_Hose . one more thing about the lay flat hose, it eats up psi. it takes a certain psi to expand it so the longer the run you need a larger diameter, this becomes self defeating after about 200ft. it's best to use rigid pipe for long runs to keep the psi up. highdesertranger

 

[flailer]

I really see a lot of problems with the small hydro. I will not go into that here. flailer I have a lot of experience with discharge hose the blue hose you linked to is not very good. it is unreinforced, it's thin wall, it's not recommended for any type of pressure which you want. that is the whole idea for the head pressure. I would go one step up to the red like this http://www.hosecraftusa.com/model/PD2_PVC_Heavy_Duty_Laflat_Discharge_Hose . one more thing about the lay flat hose, it eats up psi. it takes a certain psi to expand it so the longer the run you need a larger diameter, this becomes self defeating after about 200ft. it's best to use rigid pipe for long runs to keep the psi up. highdesertranger

Yep, I see a lot of problems with *portable micro hydro power too.
And thus was looking for wiser minds than mine.

I, at an intuitive level, am wondering at the pressure loss due to non-rigid tubing / hosing. Once fully inflated (full head, no flow) wouldnt it not be a problem?; NOT be a source of head loss? Same size, length, fluid volume & shape of a rigid hose? I don't know. Still, I like your link! Thanks!!

My largest concern with the blue "lay flat" hose was puncture. Particularly due to being moved from place to place. Your Red goes a long way towards solving that!

I'll keep looking, but I fear you guys are all correct: Portable Micro Hydro-Power generation simply isnt viable.

 

[jimindenver]

It's all advertising.

There are those that are for it and will omit what happens before the solar is hooked up. There are those against it and will point out every thing they can to make it look bad. Most of them have a agenda and usually it involves money.

So solar is just a different way of doing things in the long run. It has it's upside to be cherished and it's downsides to be dealt with. The batteries needed to store and use the energy is certainly not eco-friendly. Having to buy and replace them every so often makes going off grid feasible if you have no choice or if the grid cost are too high. Usually the cost per Kw off grid just can't compete with what the utility will sell it for.

Now with panel prices dropping so far you would think solar would be going nuts everywhere. First thing is the companies installing the solar are not dropping their prices, it's still going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars to get it. The utility doesn't like solar unless it is THEIR solar. They have no interest in allowing you to make your own energy and even sell some back to them. They will say how it is not constant, causes the grid to be unstable, unfair to non solar users, yada, yada, yada. Interestingly enough solar becomes wonderful if they own the panels on your roof or the solar fields. So while utilities are forced into allowing you to connect, they will make it economically unfeasible with fees, extending the pay off date years. In Hawaii the utility has stopped people from connecting at all saying there is too much already. Once you remove the personal roof top systems privately owned, the future of solar becomes off grid or commercial, right where big money wants it.

So solar is green because that is the color of money. Don't believe me? Look at any site selling solar with the usual green advertising and you will find they are much more expensive than those that sell without the green labels.

As for conservation. As a forward thinking concept it is much harder for people than doing it out of necessity. It hit me when we took the RV off grid and needed to account for every amp used. LEDs in the RV make a huge difference, at home they will save me pennies on my bill. I wonder how green LEDs truly are, I know CFLs are nasty things.

 

[highdesertranger]

flailer, I have a lot of experience with the lay flat hose. I use it for prospecting I have 300ft of the red hose I linked to, I have another 200ft of fire hose, and 60ft of schedule 80 I use this for over a road or if I have to pump a long distance. somewhere I have a formula of psi loss per foot of hose it's not a whole lot but adds up when you are talking 100-200+ft. I don't have numbers but I can tell you I have a lot more pressure at the end of 60ft of pvc than with 50ft of lay flat. the red hose can handle abuse from rocks, sticks and such much better than the blue. the yellow is even better but cost and weight start to play a role. as far as hydro goes sure you can make a portable system but to get any type of wattage out of it you need a pretty substantial amount of water. plus you have to deal with some type of intake which involves some type dam and an out flow. out west here any type of dam is a no no and the out flow must not return to a water source if it's cloudy(turbid). you must have settling ponds. I have seen people try the floating water wheels with a car alternators but they need a fast current to get any type of number and the wheels get to be to large. however good luck and let us know if you do this and how it works. highdesertranger

 

[flailer]

Thanks! Yes, I understand about pressure loss over distance.
- I guess the flat-lay hosing never fully "inflates" ? and therefore never creates the same cross-sectional area that circular tubing would?
- Or, perhaps, the material & surface of the tubing is so rough - unlike PVC - that it creates a larger drag (a non-flowing boundary layer of fluid on the interior surface of the tubing) ?

And to headinthetrees point: It is going to take a lot more than 200' hosing / tubing to get 200' of head. His example was 1,500' , which maybe near the mark on one of my two sites.

For anyone interested I just got a phone number for someone near one of the H2O power generation sites! that would be the site that is high-flow, low-head... the site that I speculated needed a on-site caretaker. I'll be calling tomorrow. I'll let you know how that pans out. Wish me luck!!

 

[highdesertranger]

well lay flat does fully expand if under enough pressure. but you lose psi just by the act of keeping it inflated. like a balloon, it takes a certain psi to blow up and to keep it blown up, remove the psi and it deflates. btw I believe we are a little off topic. highdesertranger

 

[highdesertranger]

well I see this topic has been split from the original so I guess we are not off topic anymore. thanks whoever did this Bob, mods, whoever. highdesertranger

 

[Canine]

It takes a ton of water to make enough usable electricity. Some places have enough height, but the flow is so little that it can't be used unless that water is stored in a water tank. Or only so much water is allowed to be taken from the creek so that the aquatic life is not extinguished. So a small amount of water is consistently taken to fill a water tank. Those large tanks are expensive. Or you could dig a pond, but those don't hold water like a plastic tank, and that is expensive, too. As are the platforms or towers that hold the tanks. When the tank is full, the water is opened which runs the micro-hydro making electricity. Just like storing energy in a battery, but that energy is stored in a tank that holds thousands of gallons of water.

It works for some people who are fortunate to have the water, elevation, and permission to use the water. And the money to invest in building it unless you get super lucky and have the natural environment to stick a pipe in and that's it.

It could definitely work, though. Lots of people do it and have great success. There are places that would be great for hydro and if you can, that is a good way to go. Definitely keep us updated.