On to Inverters...

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
R.E.

We are just dealing with different situations here. You deal with a concrete jungle with 24 hr access. The closest blip on the map to where I go is at least 12 miles away and the first four miles take 30-45 minutes in and out using four wheel drive. That's a long ways to nuke a sandwich and close to a quarter tank of gas in the truck too. The solar may never pay for it self in gas and propane but the convenience factor is priceless.
 
jimindenver said:
R.E.

We are just dealing with different situations here. You deal with a concrete jungle with 24 hr access. The closest blip on the map to where I go is at least 12 miles away and the first four miles take 30-45 minutes in and out using four wheel drive. That's a long ways to nuke a sandwich and close to a quarter tank of gas in the truck too. The solar may never pay for it self in gas and propane but the convenience factor is priceless.

Again, different strokes for different folks.

If I am that far out in the Bush, I don't cook with a microwave.  I cook over an open fire.
 
Reverse Engineer said:
Again, different strokes for different folks.

If I am that far out in the Bush, I don't cook with a microwave.  I cook over an open fire.

That's fine if you're in an area where the firewood is easily available and you can light a fire legally.

A whole lot of us spend at least a portion of our time in areas where one is not allowed to gather firewood (AZ desert for example), and/or open fires are out of the question due to fire danger. I can conceivably spend 9 months of the year in areas where open fires are not feasible.

Some of also are not inclined to utilize stores microwaves for a variety of reasons that range from their not being handy to finding them absolutely filthy most of the time.

For the same reason that I don't take condiments that I don't need when buying something from a store, I also don't take advantage of a microwave that was meant for heating store bought food for heating something that I would take in to their store. I may be alone in my thoughts on this but I don't think so - I consider taking either condiments or the power used to be tantamount to stealing. I just don't do it!
 
Here locally, it is not legal to use a Kwikee Mart microwave to nuke your own brought-in food.  Sanitary laws.   Buy a store sandwich, okay.  More and more of them now have little mini-diners in their stores.  Subs, pizza, burgers, etc.
I don't plan to have a microwave in my van.
 
BradKW said:
If I were to use two of these 6v batteries: http://www.renogy-store.com/VMax-6V-225AH-AGM-Solar-Charge-Tank-p/batt-slr6-225.htm

They are rated at 225 amp hours...so would I end up with 450 amp hours total with two?  ty...

Haha, I'm going to use this question as a test to see if my brain has actually absorbed any of the reading I've been doing these past few months.

If I'm right, the answer is no - you'd have 225 amp hours  at 12V because those are 6V batteries.

Let's wait and see if I'm right or if I get a failing grade on this one.... :D
 
We had fire bans here in 2012, 2013, and 2014. That's a lot of cold pork and beans. lol

R.E. You don't have to defend your position, none of us do. That's what make all of this interesting is the possibilities. We roughed it for 20 years and while I enjoy cooking on the fire when I can, I am not limiting myself to that. We have the fire, microwave, gas stove and oven, electric stove and solar ovens. We use them all.
 
When you put the batteries in series you get the same amps and higher voltage. Put them in parallel and you get the same voltage but double the amps.

Two 6 volts will have higher internal resistance resulting in a faster voltage drop under higher load like running a microwave.
 
two six volt golf cart batteries, are much better than any one 12 volt battery, in so many ways.
 
jimindenver said:
When you put the batteries in series you get the same amps and higher voltage. Put them in parallel and you get the same voltage but double the amps.

Two 6 volts will have higher internal resistance resulting in a faster voltage drop under higher load like running a microwave.

Exactly.  :cool:
 
My guess is that most aware van dwellers only use their microwaves when the sun is shining and providing a reasonable amount of power.  That way the battery bank is not taxed nearly as much and is replenished fairly quickly after the micro shuts off.
 
ccbreder said:
two six volt golf cart batteries, are much better than any one 12 volt battery, in so many ways.

I'll put one of my Lifeline 12v 8-Ds up against a pair of 6v's any day.

6 volts are good for the low and slow or using multiple batteries to spread out the load. Great for running the basic rig functions but will rebel when running a microwave  with only two.

Now if you are speaking the build, there are true deep cycle 12v batteries like the Trojan  T1275. It would take two of those to match the Ah rating of a pair of 6v's.

Ah wise a pair of 6v are equivalent to a 4 or 8-d. I know one of my Lifeline 8-D can run a microwave on its own, is AGM and taken care of will last a decade or more. Then again that performance comes at 3x the cost of a pair of 6v's.

So there really is no best of anything, only a bunch of options with pros and cons. One of them will be best for you no matter what works for someone else.
 
CAn't compare AGM to Flooded deep cycle under heavy loading. AGMS shine at holding their voltage under huge loads. Lifeline has the thickest plates in the AGM world and thick positive plates is the hallmark of a deep cycle battery. Odyssey and Northstar tout their Thin plate pure lead technology, and have extremely high CCA figures.

A 105AH group31 lifeline has 650CCA, a 100AH group31 Odyssey AGM has 1150CCA. In the voltage under heavy load contest the Odyssey will win. In the amount of deep cycles accumulated before battery failure, the Lifeline will win.

The T-1275 has 150AH capacity, a pair of t-105s 232AH capacity. Their plate thicknesses are comparable but the single t1275 weighs 82 Lbs, a pair of t-105's weigh 124.

Please keep in mind Peukert.

His law states the higher the load on the battery, the less available capacity the battery has to give. All batteries have some peukert component and some batteries are better than others in this regard.

Peukert basically says a 100 amp hour battery can power a 1 amp load for a hundred hours before voltage hits 10.5v, but it certainly cannot power a 100 amp load for an hour.
Far too many people discount Peukert's effect on their batteries when trying to figure out how much their microwave is using to bake that potato.

Peukert also works the other way too. A 100AH battery can power a 5 amp load for 20 hours before voltage drops to 10.5v. Loads under 5 amps will increase overall capacity available, but loads over 5 amps decrease it. Those who have very little loading of their batteries and do not approach the discharge rate at which their battery met its rating, will be able to go a lot longer before they can notice any capacity loss of their battery.

People tend to view Inverters as magical/ make everything just like a stick and brick, but there are huge factors that come into play when one is powering HUGE loads, like a microwave or a coffee brewer.

Jim in Denver has a lot of AGM capacity, and a heck of a lot of Solar, and can do things us mere mortals cannot.

But newbies to the 12v world seem to think they can get a small inverter, plug iut into their dashboard ciggy receptacle and power their hair dryer.

Jim might be able to have his wife blow dry her hair on Battery power, but few other people could manage this significant accomplishment.

There is also a tendency to get a huge inverter, just to have a big overhead, without realizing the battery capacity they have could never power the max rating of the inverter for more than a minute or 2.

While running the engine while inverting huge loads can offset a lot of it, it really depends on the vehicle, and the wiring to the house battery from the alternator, and the capability of the alternator. If the wiring is thick, the battery depleted and the loads is huge, then Idling the engine, well the alternator will quickly heat upto 220F and beyond if it does not have protections built in. With a huge load on it, the alternator WILL heat up faster than a cold engine.

The alternator does not make free energy. When Idling, with a capable alternator, the internal alternator fan is not moving enough air through it. Combine this with little underhood airflow at Idle, and one can easily fry their alternator.

Just some things to be aware of. Inverters are great tools for both quick battery depletion, and the frying of alternators.

Inverters can also be electrically noisy, and screw with the host vehicle's engine computer. I've read more than one report of the Use of an Inverter on a Dodge van 1994 to 2003 while driving have caused driveability issues. I've not experienced this, but then again I rarely use my inverters.

So anyway my point is they INverters and battery capacity should be designed as a system, and any offsetting of huge loads by running the engine, could contribute to the premature demise of the alternator, as idling under a huge electrical load is the best single way to overheat an Alternator, if that were the goal.

I've been Deep in Baja with a failed alternator caused by simply overloading and overheating it. It was quite stressful as I was also out of water and food, and my batteries were down in the low 11 volt range.

I could not have accomplished that without my inverter.
 
SternWake said:
CAn't compare AGM to Flooded deep cycle under heavy loading.  AGMS shine at holding their voltage under huge loads.  Lifeline has the thickest plates in the AGM world and thick positive plates is the hallmark of a deep cycle battery.  Odyssey and Northstar tout their Thin plate pure lead technology, and have extremely high CCA figures.

A 105AH group31 lifeline has 650CCA, a 100AH group31 Odyssey AGM has 1150CCA.  In the voltage under heavy load contest the Odyssey will win.  In the amount of deep cycles accumulated before battery failure, the Lifeline will win.

The T-1275 has 150AH capacity, a pair of t-105s 232AH capacity.  Their plate thicknesses are comparable but the single  t1275 weighs 82 Lbs, a pair of t-105's weigh 124.

Please keep in mind Peukert.

His law states the higher the load on the battery, the less available capacity the battery has to give.  All batteries have some peukert component and some batteries are better than others in this regard.

Peukert basically says a 100 amp hour battery can power a 1 amp load for a hundred hours before voltage hits 10.5v, but it certainly cannot power a 100 amp load for an hour.
Far too many people discount Peukert's effect on their batteries when trying to figure out how much their microwave is using to bake that potato.

Peukert also works the other way too.  A 100AH battery can power a 5 amp load for 20 hours before voltage drops to 10.5v.  Loads under 5 amps will increase overall capacity available, but loads over 5 amps decrease it.  Those who have very little loading of their batteries and do not approach the discharge rate at which their battery met its rating, will be able to go a lot longer before they can notice any capacity loss of their battery.

People tend to view Inverters as magical/ make everything just like a stick and brick, but there are huge factors that come into play when one is powering HUGE loads, like a microwave or a coffee brewer.

Jim in Denver has a lot of AGM capacity, and a heck of a lot of Solar, and can do things us mere mortals cannot.

But newbies to the 12v world seem to think they can get a small inverter, plug iut into their dashboard ciggy receptacle and power their hair dryer.

Jim might be able to have his wife blow dry her hair on Battery power, but few other people could manage this significant accomplishment.

There is also a tendency to get a huge inverter, just to have a big overhead, without realizing the battery capacity they have could never power the max rating of the inverter for more than a minute or 2.

While running the engine while inverting huge loads can offset a lot of it, it really depends on the vehicle, and the wiring to the house battery from the alternator, and the capability of the alternator.  If the wiring is thick, the battery depleted and the loads is huge, then Idling the engine, well the alternator will quickly heat upto 220F and beyond if it does not have protections built in.  With a huge load on it, the alternator WILL heat up faster than a cold engine.

The alternator does not make free energy.  When Idling, with a capable alternator, the internal alternator fan is not moving enough air through it.  Combine this with little underhood airflow at Idle, and one can easily fry their alternator.

Just some things to be aware of.  Inverters are great tools for both quick battery depletion, and the frying of alternators.

Inverters can also be electrically noisy, and screw with the host vehicle's engine computer.  I've read more than one report of the Use of an Inverter on a Dodge van 1994 to 2003 while driving have caused driveability issues.  I've not experienced this, but then again I rarely use my inverters.

So anyway my point is they INverters and battery capacity should be designed as a system, and any offsetting of huge loads by running the engine, could contribute to the premature demise of the alternator, as idling under a huge electrical load is the best single way to overheat an Alternator, if that were the goal.

I've been Deep in Baja with a failed alternator caused by simply overloading and overheating it.  It was quite stressful as I was also out of water and food, and my batteries were down in the low 11 volt range.

I could not have accomplished that without my inverter.
That was a real good post SW!

Basically, it makes a real good case for going all DC.  You're still going to need good storage and generation capacity though if you wanna run microwaves and blow dryers.

RE
 
Almost There said:
That's fine if you're in an area where the firewood is easily available and you can light a fire legally.
Well, there is plenty of firewood in Alaska! lol.

However, I use mostly propane, not firewood.  You can cook inside your van on a propane burner.

If I want to cook electric, I use a Slow Cooker.  Very low power draw there, nothing like a microwave.
 
jimindenver said:
We had fire bans here in 2012, 2013, and 2014. That's a lot of cold pork and beans. lol

R.E.   You don't have to defend your position, none of us do. That's what make all of this interesting is the possibilities. We roughed it for 20 years and while I enjoy cooking on the fire when I can, I am not limiting myself to that. We have the fire, microwave, gas stove and oven, electric stove and solar ovens. We use them all.

I'm not against using electric to heat up your pork and beans.  Use a slow cooker, much lower power draw.

I try to get away with as little power consumption as possible, especially in the SUV.  There just isn't enough room for solar panels, DC fridge etc.  I bring a small solar panel to keep my portable electrics charged up.  I bring the yamaha generator if I need some extra juice for ice making.  Propane burner and grill.  That's all I need.

My RV has the works, 4 burner stove, propane/electric fridge, propane furnace, 3000W generator etc.  But it's not very Stealthy.  lol.
 
A SUV? Man that has to be limiting. There is a 230w panel on top of my Expedition right now keeping the bank happy but after spending a night in it on the 4x4 trails, I wouldn't want to do it again.

Everything that we have added to the trailer is the lowest possible draw possible. It took a year to find the right window A/C that pulls 450w. The hair dryer pulls 400w on low. The small burner on the stove is 470w and all of those things will run directly off of the solar. Only the microwave and coffee maker pull more than the solar will cover and we don't use the MW often enough to make it worth replacing.

Stern

My point was that there is no universal answer for everyone. Unless you are willing to fall for buzz words or let someone else dictate what is best for you based on their situation, it is best to do your research and find the right balance for you.
 
jimindenver said:
A SUV? Man that has to be limiting. There is a 230w panel on top of my Expedition right now keeping the bank happy but after spending a night in it on the 4x4 trails, I wouldn't want to do it again.

LOL, indeed living out of an SUV is tight.  I had a visit recently from a friend from the Diner who was at it full time for several months.  I never tried going at it that long in a car, a week or two the most before my accident (broke my neck, so not walking too good anymore).  You definitely want to supplement with a good tent and use it where plausible.  The nice thing about 4x4s though is you can go places Vans and RVs cannot go.

The Astro Van had substantially more room, but in the environment I was pursuing that type of stealth living (streets of NYC), deploying Solar PV would have been out of the question.

The Tioga is basically a palace compared to either of those methods, but it's not Stealth.  It's an obvious dwelling, and while up around here you can get away with living in them, it's not possible in a city like NY, at least not without paying for an RV Park.

Anyhow, I got my article done, View From the Bugout Machine: Stealth Van Living, which I will publish tomorrow on the Diner.  I'll provide a link to it here when I publish.  I linked to the site here as authoritative on this stuff for interested readers.

Still hope to get a Podcast or Vidcast done with some of you folks, I have interest from a couple of people so we may eventually get that recorded.  Send me a PM if interested in participating.
 
I vote for making this thread a Sticky. I was just reading an old discussion about making more stickies, seemed everyone agreed, so I'm suggesting this thread should be added. I'd probably clean it up a bit, removing some of the slightly off-topic stuff. Or pull out the best stuff.

But either way, there is some great information here that shouldn't get buried. I'm thinking in particular of Sternwake's response because it took enough time to type it all out, it shouldn't get buried in the archive heap  :)
 
Thought i'd post some pics of today's camper inverter project. The 1000w msw inverter is tied into the DC feed on the fuse panel. The shore power whip is plugged into the inverter receptacle. With the campers main and gfi breakers on all receptacles are powered. The spin dryer in the pic ran when plugged into the outside recptacle. It is 650w.

View attachment 5130View attachment 5131View attachment 5132
 

Latest posts

Top