Okay, time to buy a new battery... but, REPLACE my battery or ADD to it?!

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I just talked with a rep at usabatterysales and paid for two T-125 GC batteries over the phone with an agreement to pick them up at one of their locations. That saves me getting them shipped. I paid full core deposits so that I can take my time swapping to new batteries (I'll have to cut out the battery box that's existing, build something new).

Should be a much better system for me.
 
BTW I learned something that I'd like to hear SternWakes comments on.

On the above and other hydrometers Initially got good clean repeatable measurements. After use I prefer to rinse as in sucking up some fresh water and flushing out before I store it away.
After storage of course there is water moisture left over. Upon my next check I usually will take several sample/readings on each cell to make sure the reads are not changing.
What I found was the float was not floating as it should, tip was wanting to stick to the side of the barrel. So I took it apart, rinsed and then dried the float and tube well. Bingo readings constant and the float did not stick to the side of the barrel.

MIke R
 
The float sticking to the sides, or Bubbles sticking to the float is certainly an issue, and it seems to be more of an issue when the battery State of charge is lower, the SG is lower.

I found that these symptoms were lessened by allowing the hydrometer to fully dry out, with the bulb removed from the glass tube, before storing it in the container it shipped in. Twist and pull the bulb off entirely. I do not pull off the business end of the OTC4619, but I do place it near my ceiling fans for a while to help to dry it out and usually there is not condensate build up when I pull it back out. The little foam protector provided with the unit that one wraps around the float seems of have some chemical on it which also causes the bubbles to stick to it. I misplaced mine and cut the corner of a bubble wrap envelope, and this seems to help the bubble sticky issue somewhat, but I usually wipe the float carefully with a clean napkin before reinserting it into the turkey baster tube too.

Bubbles sticking to the float can really throw off readings. Sucking electrolyte slowly from the cells helps, but one should also do a few bulb squeezes to mix up the Electrolyte before eyeballing the float.

I've only one single group27 AGM battery at the moment as both house and engine battery, so my hydrometer has not seen any use for a few months now. I've got to lower my battery tray to accept a T-1275, as Winter Solar harvest will not be enough to meet my needs, and currently, my AGM requires high amp recharges every 4 to 5 deep cycles to perform well, not just low and slow solar day after day.

The high amp recharge on my AGM is like a reawakening, even if the solar does return my battery monitor to 100% daily.

My former flooded batteries also responded favorable to higher amp recharges in my observations of voltage under loading afterward, but I give my AGM 40+ amps from my grid powered power supply, and my Alternator will do 60+. This is about 4 to 5x as much as the recommended rate for the flooded battery, but the AGM just gobbles it up loving it.
 
SternWake said:
Nicely done.  Battery envy occurring.  What are going to be your methods of recharging?


Trojan recommends a 10 to 13% charge rate and an absorption voltage of 14.8 volts.  

http://www.sundogsolarstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Trojan-DC-MAINTENANCE-GUIDE.pdf

I have 200 watts of solar wired on. Thinking about upping that to 300 watts, but I wanted to get the batteries squared away first.

My van also charges the house battery while running and that does read 14+v but I don't know what amperage my alternator puts out.

I'm not sure if I'm going to start measuring with the hydrometer right off. I realize that is the only way to ensure optimum levels. But I'm hoping that this battery setup will be overkill for my needs, thus ensuring I am not discharging them further than I should. The solar panels keep up with my demand during the day (laptop for work, fan, etc). My current problem is that this 12v battery is old and inferior and not storing much surplus. At night I might charge my laptop again and run ventilation, and that sometimes causes the charge controller to report the battery is overdischarged. I don't need much higher demand out of the new batteries, I just want to have enough capacity not to be abusing them. At least that's my thinking.
 
TMG51 I think if you will keep an eye on the voltage several times a day and night you will developed a "feel" for the state of charge. I'm running 200 Watts and that seems to be working but alas I am not pulling them down real hard at night.
What I have learned is what my daily voltage is along with what I use most often. for me I have never seen my battery at rest under 12.6 and typically 12.7
Oh and that's two T-105's in series.
 
MikeRuth said:
TMG51 I think if you will keep an eye on the voltage several times a day and night you will developed a "feel" for the state of charge. I'm running 200 Watts and that seems to be working but alas I am not pulling them down real hard at night.
What I have learned is what my daily voltage is along with what I use most often. for me I have never seen my battery at rest under 12.6 and typically 12.7
Oh and that's two T-105's in series.

So is that a fair approximation for monitoring battery levels without breaking out the hydrometer?

I've been thinking about getting one of these and just monitoring my voltage throughout the day.
http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3721-Battery-Charging-Monitor/dp/B000EVWDU0/

Sometimes I seem to hear conflicting opinions as to whether voltage is really telling of much (vs measuring with a hydrometer). But I know myself well enough to know that I'm probably not going to measure electrolyte daily. But I would look at an LCD daily.
 
I am not sure how much store I would put in the solar charge controllers reading, as to state of charge, especially if the battery is still under loading. Unless there is a Shunt and an Amp hour counter, it is simply going off of battery voltage, and voltage is notoriously inaccurate indicator as to state of charge on a battery that is either charging or discharging.

How much the alternator contributes when driving is directly related to how thick the wiring is between alternator and battery along with the circuit distance, as well as the voltage allowed and held by the vehicles voltage regulator. if you want to know, a Clamp on ammeter can tell you:

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Clamp-Meter-Uni-Trend-UT203/dp/B005HOPRRK

Clamp it over the one wire coming from alternator/isolation device.

200 watts of solar on 240AH of battery capacity is a little light, if you discharge to 50%, but should be fine if you stay in the 75% and above range.

The batteries will of of course be happier and live longer with 300 watts.

It is time at absorption voltage which fully charges them. The time needed is a moving target. the hydrometer is how one can figure out the time needed.

Trojan makes a great battery, but they are not immune from chronic undercharging, so it can be quite beneficial to use the hydrometer on occasion to see if when your charge controller indicates full, whether this has any basis in reality. Often it does not, and that blinking green light is mocking you, and helping to degrade the batteries faster than need be, especially when there is enough solar available to hold them at absorption voltage for longer.

That blinking green light might be soothing, but it is rarely correct. It is a shame how many people believe it.

I think I am going to make a blinking green light gadget, and make millions.
 
Ah what the hell, I'll just buy another 100w panel while I'm at it. I can just buy this, the z-brackets, another pair of MC4 Y-connectors, and wire them in, right?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009Z6CW7O

I want to add a compressor fridge one day anyway.

I do realize that the blinking green light is only a placebo. I look at it with about 40% confidence of its value. I look at the solid orange light with closer to 80% confidence in its value.
 
If your charge controller and roof space can handle another 100 watts, go for it. I keep eyeballing the remaining space on my roof to add more, but If I'd just lessen my laptop usage, I'd accomplish the same thing.

Speaking of Wh...
 
It's the cheaper PWM charge controller that came with the 200 watt kit. I seem to recall at the time deciding that this charge controller was good for 300 watts down the road. 30A I think?

Oh yeah, and rough break on the laptop cutout...
 
TMG51 said:
So is that a fair approximation for monitoring battery levels without breaking out the hydrometer?

I've been thinking about getting one of these and just monitoring my voltage throughout the day.
http://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3721-Battery-Charging-Monitor/dp/B000EVWDU0/

Sometimes I seem to hear conflicting opinions as to whether voltage is really telling of much (vs measuring with a hydrometer). But I know myself well enough to know that I'm probably not going to measure electrolyte daily. But I would look at an LCD daily.

Yes it is fair once you have some time under your belt with what you use. Believe me I'm not trying to buck the proper ways to monitor a battery. 

Let me put it this way, and again, I'm not pulling hard on my batteries right now. In the morning nothing has been drawing off my bank and the voltage is 12.7
I go out a couple hours later and and see the same, I use the bank to charge some LiPo packs at the field and run the laptop. notice I'm at 12.6 turn on the vent fan, suns up, solar's making juice. Voltage is now pumped to 14.8, laptop gets turned off, chargers disconnected nothing pulling on the battery, couple more hours go by I see 14.8. 
little while later I see it's at 13.2, probably hit float charge. suns going down and the voltage is dropping off now, settles down at 12.8, check in the morning, 12.7, this tells me I'm probably about 99% full if not full. 

Same scenario but I leave the fan on all night(oops) standing voltage is now 12.5, turn off the van and 30 minutes later it's settled at 12.6,Obviously I'm not full but a long ways off form 50%,  suns coming up, voltage starts to rise, it's a nice sunny day, I don't use anything off it, and in the evening I see it's back to 12.7 I'm probably charged or damn close. 

I don't have a battery monitor right now and I'm not so sure I will invest in that anytime soon, but once I start to pull harder on them, then I'll see the change and to be kind to them for the first couple of weeks and make sure that once a week I charge them off shore power to 100%, doing this for a couple weeks or more will give me a better idea of what that voltage is really telling me. It's not perfect but we can at least use the voltage to make sure were not killing them prematurely.
 
Whelp, the new panel is in the mail. Now stop me before I start looking at compressor refrigerators.
 
When I had a boat there was a meter that measured the amp hours coming out and going back into the battery. It automatically factored in a 15% loss due to charging inefficiencies. It used a shunt device at the battery to measure currant flow, and you would input battery characteristics such as total capacity. It then kept track of percentage of charge. It could display voltage, but did not use this for it's calculations, (under different loads the battery will show different voltages).

I have not done a lot of research on this but I think that this is one model of such a device. http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Energy-BMV700-Precision-Battery-Monitor_p_2810.html

There is a video on that page describing the system
 
A true amp hour counting battery monitor is hardly a necessity.  It is a tool one can use to learn and to extend battery life, and notice when battery degradation is occurring, or when the battery is not getting fully charged, or if something is amiss.


If one is seeing the battery only drop to 12.5v by the morning, then they are skimming only the top 1/4 of their battery capacity, and it could be argued they have more battery capacity than they need.  But that other 1/4 is filled with warm and fuzzies and there is no arguing against warm and fuzzies.

AH counting Battery monitors do complicate the wiring, when the alternator is involved as vehicle grounds need to run through the shunt.

My personal strategy is to cycle a single battery deeper, and I will go below 50%, as long as I know i have the means to 100% recharge the next day. A battery under 80% charged can basically accept huge charging currents, and huge currents can get a battery upto 80% charged quickly.  So if those huge charging sources are available, I will make them work and work hard, in combination with whatever solar I have available.

Right now is cloudy, My battery monitor is displaying 
12.8 volts
 -0.6 amps
25 AH from full
and the 200 watts of solar at Noon is making 4.1 amps indicating I have 4.7 amps of loads running.  Fridge and fans Tv and a few lights.

Now the battery newbie, who only has a panel display with green, yellow and red lights, would show a green light, and 12.8v, well that's fully charged right?

Well, no.  Voltage in this case, and in most cases, when the other parameters are not known is misleading.  My battery rested and fully charged is 13.06 volts, but more importantly I see that my monitor is saying I am 25AH from full.  I can see that without the sun popping out, and without other other charging sources employed, that there is no chance for my battery to get near 100% by Sundown.  First the sun would have to get my battery to 14.4v, and then be able to hold it there for about 4 hours as amps taper to 0.4 amps.  It ain't gonna happen today.  I'd need about 90 minutes of full sun to get it to 14.4v, and then about 4 hours more being held there before amps taper to 0.4.  Even if I drive, well the battery once it gets to the 14.9v my vehicle allows, well it will not be requiring much more than 10 amps to be held there at this state of charge, even though my alternator could make 50 amps+.

Will I have enough battery power to make it through the night, yes, but I might take the battery to 40%, or less if I cannot sleep and stream movies..

If I do not employ other charging sources, the monitor might climb upto 10AH from full range, and the voltage will likely get to 14.2v at times, but the battery will not be fully charged, and once the sun goes down the voltage will be 0.2 to 0.3v lower than it would had it indeed reached full charge, as a starting point, and that is only 10Ah from full.  Several days of only getting to 90%, and the battery just does not have that 90% to give, but somewhere well below that.

Part of this is post is to also show how misleading even the readings from a battery monitor can be.  I do not trust mine as 100% accurate.  It is all the numbers combined which then one can allow the interested or concerned human to interpolate the battery state of charge, or how close one can get to achieving 100%, and tailor their electrical consumption to stand the best chance of getting the battery to an actual 100%, and actual 100% is ~ 4 hours held at absorption voltage once it has been reached. 

I do try and limit my electrical consumption in the morning so the solar can charge the battery at a higher rate.

Voltage is an important factor, but without knowing how that voltage is being affected by loads, charging sources, and battery age/degradation, it can be quite misleading.  many people see anything over 12.8 volts and just assume the battery is full, or that all is well, but things can actually be far from it as far as the battery is concerned.  But then again they are only batteries and who works for who?

When a battery is old and has lost capacity, voltage when charging rises faster than a newer battery that has not yet lost capacity.

So there is a lot of variables, and voltage when monitored often throughout many charge/discharge cycles can give the observer a general idea of where the battery actually is, but unless the observer actually cares, and takes into account the charging and loads on the system while charging, then voltage alone can mean very little and give a false sense of confidence.  Also the observer needs to know when the battery is indeed full, and the blinking green light on a charge controller or other charging source does not indicate this.  The Hydrometer will on a flooded battery, the ammeter will on an AGM battery, but voltage alone never will. 

 It is entirely possible to charge a battery, get it to rest at 12.8+ volts, but then dip the hydrometer and see 1.255 where as full is 1.275 or perhaps higher.  The battery that gets to 1.275 Specific gravity on each recharge cycle will last more than twice as long as the battery that only gets to 1.260 each charge cycle.  So If the person cares, then dip the hydrometer when the charge controller first drops to float voltage and blinks that soothing green light.  Most of the time they will find the battery is NOT full, and more time at perhaps a higher absorption voltage is needed.

  When the solar wattage is available but the charge controller cuts off the application of absorption voltage prematurely, well, that is a crime in my opinion.

With an AGM battery, the test of full is re applying absorption voltage and seeing how quickly the amps the battery can accept at that voltage taper to 0.5% of capacity, or 0.5 amps for a 100AH battery(20 hr rate).  If I goose my AGM battery to 14.4v via my power supply, and it tapers to only 3 amps and holds there, I know this battery needs about 2 more hours at 14.4v.  If it tapers to 0.9 amps then about 45 minutes to an hour.  Often my battery monitor will already read 100% and 0AH from full, when the amps the battery can accept is still above this 0.5% threshold at absorption voltage, and the battery monitor is a liar.

So, one need not goto the same lengths as I do to get the battery to 100% charged as often as possible, my aim is to present what the battery Ideally wants for maximum longevity and the reader can then take steps to go as far as they want toward Ideal.  Too many people think voltage is a reliable yard stick as to state of charge.  If only it were that simple.  If it were, then energy storage would not be an issue, but unfortunately lead acid batteries waste energy when charging, and degrade at a certain rate, and at a higher rate when they are not fully charged after each discharge cycle.

If one is consuming electricity when the solar is still charging the batteries, then it is better to be able to wait until after absorption voltage has been reached, as after that point the amps required to hold absorption voltage taper and the solar is making more energy than required to hold the battery at absorption voltage.  This is why i try and limit my electrical consumption until absorption voltage is reached, and then afterwards I will plug in the laptop to charge, or turn the stereo up, or crank up the compressor fridge then lower it late afternoon.  I don't like wasting solar, but after absorption voltage is reached, it goes to waste anyway.  Since it requires time at absorption voltage, the battery cycler is better off the sooner in the day absorption voltage is reached.  So more solar is better, better for the batteries and more convenient for the consumer of electricity.

TMG51, you looking for a front loading compressor fridge or a chest style?
 
A wealth of battery info as always, Stern.

I have an old Domestic 2333. As I recall, I think Truck Fridge makes an upright that would fit in its place. 

I know that chest style refrigerators are more efficient, because the dense cold air doesn't fall out when you open the door, but I'd have to totally redesign my interior in order to fit one in here.
 
Stern Wake " I see that my monitor is saying I am 25AH from full".

How does it know that without knowing the battery capacity and measuring the amperage that came out and went back in?
 
TMG51 said:
A wealth of battery info as always, Stern.

I have an old Domestic 2333. As I recall, I think Truck Fridge makes an upright that would fit in its place. 

I know that chest style refrigerators are more efficient, because the dense cold air doesn't fall out when you open the door, but I'd have to totally redesign my interior in order to fit one in here.

It is my opinion chest style are more efficient because there is no door seal at the bottom of the cold box.  When the lid is opened on a chest style or a door opened on a front loader, a huge portion of the  cold air within is displaced anyway.

Truckfridge seem to be the most economical front loader models.  I went with a Vitrifrigo that is very simlar, but I believe it is better because of how the compressor and condenser are mated together and the workmanship, being made in Italy instead of China.  Both on the same isolation plate, and a larger 120MM fan covering the whole condenser, instead of a louder 92mm fan covering only a portion of it.

I had the room to add extra insulation to the fridge and cabinet, which allow me to move the fan to the other side of the condenser, which makes it quieter, and more efficient.  The truckfridge would not have allowed this relocation, so I did spend 100$ more on the VF, but it was well worth it to me.

This guy can get any VF or TF model and ship it for free and likely the best price on the net.  I bought my VFc51is through him 3 years ago.
 http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html#cart_restore
 

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