New Cars are Data Privacy Nightmares

[RonDean]

The issue I have with these corporations and our government regarding data is they take it without my permission. Not only take it, but sell it and/or share it, without permission. Imagine if regular citizens did that to them?

Again, our elected officials allow it to continue. Not only that, they have allowed these companies to monopolize and become so big, they don't have to answer to anyone.

I just think we are allowing "them" to get us upset about the wrong things. I have yet to be harmed by data farming and sales. On the other hand, there are many other things nobody asked our permission about that ARE harming us. I could make a list, but it would probably get banned for being too political. Funny how that happens, isn't it? Things that we really need to discuss have become so polarizing that they are off limits.

BTW, I am NOT criticizing this forum or it's moderators. I am pointing a finger at the system that has turned us against one another so much that we no longer can talk about many things.

 

[Frood]

Data...
I still don't think MY data is all that valuable. I don't cheat on my taxes, have all that much money to spend or steal, or do anything else that could get me in very much trouble. If Amazon wants to send me ads based on what I have been recently searching for, it may feel a bit creepy, but not enough to make me change my habits. And, who knows, maybe I will want the next thing they push at me. If my van wants to report where I am or might be going, I can't get all that concerned when I consider all the other threats out there that I am not doing anything about.

I AM concerned about the digital security of our power, financial, military, etc systems. I think our country is already under attack from other countries. Speaking of which, that place which is now sheltering Snowden is not exactly our friend. Putin would be happy if we were chasing our tails while ignoring real threats. I wonder if getting us to worry about our own shopping or driving data is a sneaky way to get us to take our eyes off those real threats. Kind of like the plastic industry convincing us to take responsibility for recycling the plastic THEY produced.

It's not YOUR specific data. It's data in aggregate. It lets you predict things. Maybe not with 100% accuracy, but enough to give an edge. Counting cards doesn't guarantee a win when playing blackjack (read somewhere that your odds go to 50.5% chance to win, but take it with a grain of salt because I don't have citations and it's not important enough to me to verify) but you can use that minuscule shift to your favor to realize tremendous gains.

Be it in politics (gerrymandering anyone?), marketing, advertising, product development, or anything else. While that 0.5% advantage may not be used to hurt you this time eventually it is going to be used when making calculations with the dreadful algebra... ie it's not cost effective to develop treatments for this disease or it's more cost effective to pay out insurance settlements than to perform a recall to fix this problem that only causes cars to burst into flames under the very rare circumstances when they get into a collision from behind on the left rear corner of the car smashing the turn signal light when the light is actively lit up flashing when the impacted vehicle is making a left hand turn. Oh, wait... That last one already happened.

 

[RonDean]

It's not YOUR specific data. It's data in aggregate. It lets you predict things. Maybe not with 100% accuracy, but enough to give an edge. Counting cards doesn't guarantee a win when playing blackjack (read somewhere that your odds go to 50.5% chance to win, but take it with a grain of salt because I don't have citations and it's not important enough to me to verify) but you can use that minuscule shift to your favor to realize tremendous gains.

Be it in politics (gerrymandering anyone?), marketing, advertising, product development, or anything else. While that 0.5% advantage may not be used to hurt you this time eventually it is going to be used when making calculations with the dreadful algebra... ie it's not cost effective to develop treatments for this disease or it's more cost effective to pay out insurance settlements than to perform a recall to fix this problem that only causes cars to burst into flames under the very rare circumstances when they get into a collision from behind on the left rear corner of the car smashing the turn signal light when the light is actively lit up flashing when the impacted vehicle is making a left hand turn. Oh, wait... That last one already happened.

The examples you provide ARE of concern to me because they DO impact us in harmful ways. But, just using data for the predictive advantage, as you also suggest and which I happen to agree with you on, that does not necessarily mean all data mining is going to be used against our best interests. Just as example some auto insurance companies offer lower rates if you allow them to track your driving. If this makes you a safer driver and saves them money, I see that as a win-win for data collection.

I believe the problem is the lack of morality being shown by or required from most corporations, not just the simple fact that they might want to keep track of certain of our data to improve their bottom line.

 

[Carla618]

The examples you provide ARE of concern to me because they DO impact us in harmful ways. But, just using data for the predictive advantage, as you also suggest and which I happen to agree with you on, that does not necessarily mean all data mining is going to be used against our best interests. Just as example some auto insurance companies offer lower rates if you allow them to track your driving. If this makes you a safer driver and saves them money, I see that as a win-win for data collection.

I believe the problem is the lack of morality being shown by or required from most corporations, not just the simple fact that they might want to keep track of certain of our data to improve their bottom line.

It is a massive invasion of privacy. They have no right to know anything about my private life. Be it shopping, my health, my interests, etc. And my life has to be more mundane than anyone here.

It is not too late to stop them. If only our elected officials cared enough.

 

[rruff]

It's not YOUR specific data. It's data in aggregate.

Surely you don't believe that.... `

If they ever have a reason to look at you in more detail, they will have plenty of data.

 

[RVTravel]

I would love to know the truth about data collection, even of email only. It must be lucrative?

 

[Frood]

The examples you provide ARE of concern to me because they DO impact us in harmful ways. But, just using data for the predictive advantage, as you also suggest and which I happen to agree with you on, that does not necessarily mean all data mining is going to be used against our best interests. Just as example some auto insurance companies offer lower rates if you allow them to track your driving. If this makes you a safer driver and saves them money, I see that as a win-win for data collection.

I believe the problem is the lack of morality being shown by or required from most corporations, not just the simple fact that they might want to keep track of certain of our data to improve their bottom line.

This main issue I have with this is that the data is being collected without choice, permission, or informed consent. Once the data is collected you have no control over how it is used. It's not a question of whether your data will be used against you or not. It's simply a question of when.

 

[Frood]

Surely you don't believe that.... `

If they ever have a reason to look at you in more detail, they will have plenty of data.

Once again, I'm looking at things in aggregate. For PID (personally identifiable data) then YES there is a chance that, should you ever be involved in a lawsuit, the data may make or break the case. However for the vast majority of people out there they are living lives of quite anonymity buried in the herd. Likewise if the data isn't personally identifiable (although in the case of cars the vast majority will be personally attributed to the primary driver of record for the vehicle) then it can't be linked back to you.

Right now there are two major classes of data collection... anonymized and personally identifiable. Personally identifiable data is, by far, the more valuable data type because in addition to providing detailed info on the user it can be aggregated into anonymized datasets as well (for machine learning and AI training, amongst other practices). It's also far more heavily regulated and what most people strive to avoid having knowingly collected on them as well.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

..... They have no right to know anything about my private life .....

..... the data is being collected without choice, permission, or informed consent .....

Almost all consumer products have Terms and Conditions attached:

For software you check a box.​

For hardware it is usually 'use of product implies consent'.​

It is up to the user to know what they are consenting too.

 

[Carla618]

Almost all consumer products have Terms and Conditions attached:

For software you check a box.​

For hardware it is usually 'use of product implies consent'.​

It is up to the user to know what they are consenting too.

Snowden revealed that they were doing it without our knowledge.

 

[Carla618]

On June 6, 2013, Americans learned that their government was spying broadly on its own people.

That’s when The Guardian and The Washington Post published the first of a series of reports put together from documents leaked by an anonymous source. The material exposed a government-run surveillance program that monitored the communications records of not just criminals or potential terrorists, but law-abiding citizens as well.

Three days later the source unmasked himself as Edward Snowden, a National Security Agency contractor.

From: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/edward-snowden-discloses-u-s-government-operations

 

[Happy Camper]

Almost all consumer products have Terms and Conditions attached:

For software you check a box.​

For hardware it is usually 'use of product implies consent'.​

It is up to the user to know what they are consenting too.

Software always has terms and conditions, along with a user agreement. You are offered the choice to accept or decline the user agreement.

Almost every software company is betting that you won't read the full text, or understand it if you do. This has been the same for many decades. Almost everyone just clicks yes and installs.
And if you decide you don't agree, you can't install and use that software.

Most people want the benefit of the program or software more than the user agreement bothers them so they accept the tradeoff.

Also, software isn't limited to a program you run. It's in the newer vehicles, it's in your smart fridge or other connected appliance. That smart speaker? The cheap Amazon fire tablet? Yup.

It's all about marketing as the main driver of data collection. If they can anticipate your needs and wants, and prove it's fairly accurate to companies they are advertising those things it's extremely valuable.

So let's say they show a more targeted ad to you and they make $.16 cents because they contribute to a sale that's income. So if they have 500 million users and can get that $.16 x10 million, that's $1.6m. The numbers actually work a bit differently and are much much better for a Google, Facebook, Twitter, tick tock, etc.

They are an advertising companies that make better data collection programs that are free and easy to use. And fun. Fun keeps you engaged.

Knowing how you drive, how far, where you go, etc will inform what consumers actually want in a car. It's the best direct market research you can get. There are other reasons for the collection, but that's a huge reason.

I haven't looked into if you can buy a new car without it being connected. But if I were to buy a new vehicle, I would certainly try to make it so.

 

[BelgianPup]

I seriously doubt that data collectors think or worry about anything except profit. And I'm sure they sell it to anyone who pays them. And if criminal entities find a way to connect 'harmless' information to your seriously private info, they won't worry, they will just raise the price, because what they're selling would be more valuable.

 

[RonDean]

There have been many points made that I agree with and a few I don't. For me the bottom line is that we all have and make choices. If we don't want our vehicles or refrigerators or whatever to track us, just buy an older one that can't, even if it wanted to. And stay off the internet. That's a choice too. Be like the Luddites that go live somewhere that has no wireless internet signal and don't hook up to any kind of grid. It IS possible to be mostly untrackable.
That lifestyle is not for me, but it's an available choice. Most of the tracking that is going on is because, as someone above said, is because we opted in so we could have whatever the bright shiny thing was.

As far as Snowden, I think I'll reserve judgement on anything he says as long as he lives in Russia.

 

[Carla618]

There have been many points made that I agree with and a few I don't. For me the bottom line is that we all have and make choices. If we don't want our vehicles or refrigerators or whatever to track us, just buy an older one that can't, even if it wanted to. And stay off the internet. That's a choice too. Be like the Luddites that go live somewhere that has no wireless internet signal and don't hook up to any kind of grid. It IS possible to be mostly untrackable.
That lifestyle is not for me, but it's an available choice. Most of the tracking that is going on is because, as someone above said, is because we opted in so we could have whatever the bright shiny thing was.

As far as Snowden, I think I'll reserve judgement on anything he says as long as he lives in Russia.

So you think it is ok that the DEFAULT is to spy on/track us, rather than the default being no tracking unless someone asks to be tracked. I'm sure there are others who agree with you that tracking is fine. Let the companies offer something in return for your info. That could entice people to sign up to be tracked.

My point is that our privacy should come before corporate profit. As far as the government tracking us, that was incredibly unethical and only the whistleblower paid the price when he exposed them.

 

[Carla618]

As far as Snowden, I think I'll reserve judgement on anything he says as long as he lives in Russia.

Forget what he says, look at the documents themselves. Geez.

He is in Russia because he can't trust the U.S. government to NOT kill him.

That is what they planned to do to another whistleblower, Julian Assange. He is STILL in jail for exposing the misdeeds (err... murders) done by our military. Among other things.

So yeah, we kill whistleblowers and journalists. It is no wonder he is in Russia, where he is safe.

 

[rruff]

My point is that our privacy should come before corporate profit.

I gave up believing that we live in a democracy a long time ago. Maybe very early in our nation's history, but it didn't last long. And the lack of it gets more obvious all the time...

I also believe there is a lot more than corporate profits at stake. Control, manipulation, power.

 

[Happy Camper]

My point is that our privacy should come before corporate profit.

How do you do that when you are their actual product?
How can you expect that when you opt in to allowing it?

These are the most profitable companies in the world. Why? Because you think Facebook and Gmail are their products. Those are just ways to get to their real product. You and your information.

There are safer ways to get on the Internet without giving much info.

But if you think Chrome is free because they are charitable think of the why. Why would a for profit company give so many products away?

Use alternatives. There are some that specifically market to privacy concerns. Some are better than others. Do your homework.

I've been in tech on many levels and in many arenas for over four decades. I've seen most of it from the front row.

There's not a lot of reasons to go crazy trying to control every single piece of data. Just be smart in your choices and give the trade offs some thought before you click accept.

If you know my name you can probably find my main cell number and possibly even my address. You know who else has that info? The many thousands I've given that number to since 2008, including business and government.

Address? Not nearly as many. But it's still public info.

Keep your antivirus up to date, make smart choices in the sites you visit, and decide what info you really really don't want out there. Once you know that the rest becomes simple.

I use services I know collect my data because I benefit more than they do from the relationship. If that changes, so will the relationship with those products.

We have choices. We are in control.

Don't get upset that you can't have free Alexa or email or whatever. You want the product, you pay for it one way or another. The model sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[Carla618]

Don't get upset that you can't have free Alexa or email or whatever. You want the product, you pay for it one way or another. The model sucks, but it is what it is.

I would never use Alexa

 

[Morgana]

There's a saying something like "if you're not paying for it, you are the product."

We've gotten used to having access to lots of free stuff we never used to have. Some of it is just people being extraordinarily generous with their skills and knowledge. But for much of it, we are the product. (And really, we are living in capitalism, it's not a shocker that corporations don't give their stuff away for actual free.)

There's a lot that we can do -- for example, in setting various preferences (which may be tucked away someplace that's not obvious) or in choosing whether to subscribe to a service vs bookmark it -- to improve our privacy (though not to perfect it, of course). Often there's a tradeoff between convenience and privacy. You choose the convenience, you lose the privacy. You save a buck with Progressive Insurance, you lose the privacy. It is what it is. (I wouldn't have that thing in my car, but ymmv.)

I know there are resources that can help with this, and I think someone has listed the main ones up-thread. It's hard work to stay on top of it. (I have privacy spurts and then in between I slack off, bad me.) At a minimum, check your Google account and consider taking the privacy options they offer.

We tend to think of privacy as similar to the right to vote, the right to bear arms, the right to a fair trial, but it's not enshrined in the Constitution in the same way, and people's attitudes toward it can change. We're never going to be able to completely rely on someone else (including the govmint) to fix this for us.