Naysayers

[ilovemyvan]

Hi everyone,

What's the best way for me to say what I think and not offend anyone.....I don't know so I'll just say it.

Van dwellers often complain about "NAYSAYERS" so this is why I'm so surprise to see that many of us don't seem to realize that they too are naysayers, big time. A few weeks back there was a post about a young couple who had a very unusual trailer. The trailer is totally what this particular couple needs. I was so taking back by the negative replies considering that we, as a group really, really, really dislike that kind of judgment when it's directed to us . People were even complaining about how much this couple was spending in grocery....in grocery for crying out loud. Who are we to judge how much someone can and can not spend on grocery.

The same thing happened yesterday. A young lady wants to make her own high top using wood and got a bit of a ear full. Only one poster gave helpful advice and you know what her reply was?

"Thank you for your support and faith in my idea! Ha ha it means a lot to know at least one person doesnt think I'm crazy."

There are a lot of ideas out there and it's not because they are not our own that they are bad, they are only different. I think we should stop being so negative with new and unusual stuff. I know we're better than that.

-Nicole

 

[Queen]

One thing many people do, without malicious intent, is become relentless with their advice. They know they are right and feel it important to get that across to others.

To all of us... Perhaps offering your thoughts as just that, YOUR thoughts, rather than an absolute would help others cut down on that sense of being hammered at? And offer them once unless asked to elaborate?

 

[Almost There]

The phrase 'You might want to consider' is one that goes a long, long way when giving advice and maybe could be used a little more often around here.

There's also a big difference between thinking someone is crazy and offering them an alternative way of achieving their end means.

I really don't think that the young lady got hit that hard with a negative attitude and I don't think any of us thought she was/is crazy. Sometimes it's just that a lot of us have a least some valuable experience to lend to a situation and maybe try a little harder to help others save themselves from hardship.

As a for instance, I had one young local fellow who knew I sewed and had made my own hammock approach me wanting to hire me to sew up this idea he had. In talking to him I realized he had a) no experience hanging in a hammock, b) no experience in designing sewing projects and c) no idea of weight ratings and the physical forces that would be exerted.

I could have encouraged him to blaze new trails but those trails were almost certainly going to end in not only failure but physical danger. Should I have encouraged him, rather than pointing out to him some of the frailties of his plan? IMO, I saved him money, time, effort and probably pain and injury by pointing out what was inherently wrong in his design idea. I aimed him in the direction of something suitable for what he was trying to achieve that had already been tested and found suitable. He was trying to reinvent a square wheel without bearings when a well greased round one was already available.

As to being aghast as what some people spend whether it's on a vehicle or groceries, hey, I'm constantly amazed at what people spend their money on and also on where they try to economize. But then I'm amazed regularly about all kinds of things that we humans do! I think it's human nature to compare ourselves and each other against one another. I don't think it's totally right to do so but I also don't think it's going to stop any time soon.

 

[Canine]

Hear Hear!

 

[akrvbob]

This is an issue I've been concerned about, even occasionally angry about.

While my goal for the forum is to aim at the "unconventional" population and to make sure they always feel welcome, the truth is inevitably it will reflect the general population of the country which means the percentage of "unconventional" thinkers will always be lower than the "conventional" thinkers. That's just the way it is.

Of course we are all somewhat "unconventional" just for our interest in living mobile full-time so we have more in common than not.

Like all Bell-curves, there are people at both the far ends of the spectrum and keeping them happy isn't easy.

All in all, we are a remarkably tolerant and wonderful group of people!!

But a reminder to be extra tolerant of those very different from us is always in order!!
Bob

 

[highdesertranger]

well I guess I am one of the naysayers. I don't remember the trailer thread, but I know the plywood high top one. I will agree with you that many times I am not very tactful. but I still feel that my advice was good especially for someone that has zero experience doing a project like this. if this person where to cut the top off the van and build a wood top the chances of failure are great. then what would she be left with? I feel that giving bad advice like some did, is far worse than being a naysayer. if I have ever been wrong with my advice I think I have owned up to it. lets face it she has no idea what she getting into and it shows in her post's, she said her brother has wood working skills and was going to help, but he's not posting we have no idea what his skills are. maybe he made candle stick holders in high school woodshop. maybe he builds houses, I don't know but I am willing to bet he doesn't build wood high tops for vans. so I really don't no what you expect from us when we see a bad idea. what if someone said, "I want to go dive off a 100 ft cliff" remember this person has no experience with this. do you want us to say good for you go for it. if you read the whole thread I tried to give her ideas for finding a used fiberglass high top in her area, so it wasn't like I was against her wanting a high top. I was just trying to be practical. one final thought if she goes ahead with this and it's a total failure then everyone that encouraged her is partially responsible, if on the other hand it all works out fine she can say I told you so and I would have to tip my hat to her. my 2cents. highdesertranger

 

[ilovemyvan]

" I don't remember the trailer thread"

Here it is: https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-What-lesson-do-you-learn-from-this-story

Nicole

 

[akrvbob]

The key is to tell the truth, but in such a way that we don't drive off the person. A little tact will go a very long way in that!!

The best advice is no good if presented in a way that turns the other person off so much they just tune you out. you may be a proven expert on this forum, but the new person doesn't know that, you're just a stranger that thinks they are dumb.

On the other hand, if you come here with a truly radical idea, you've got to expect some resistance and you can't be so sensitive that some opposing ideas offend you so much you leave.

In this particular case i think it's no harm no foul. Everyone seems to be doing okay. We all walked the difficult line of being too blunt or being too sensitive.

I think we've cleared the air, we all know where the other stands, now we can move forward and try to help each other as best as we can.

People who want to do risky things are always welcome here. All of us are in some way defying the norm, stepping out of the box and taking risks. Let's celebrate that and never denigrate it!!
Bob

 

[highdesertranger]

yeah but those people in the trailer thread weren't even members of this forum. it was link to another site. I fail to see the connection. Bob I am trying to work on the tact, guess I need to work harder. highdesertranger

 

[jimindenver]

I try to help by saying this is what I do or have done. There are usually more than one way to look at things and mine may only work for me. Seeing others do it differently is always interesting, it gets the juices moving.

 

[Caroline57]

well I guess I am one of the naysayers. I don't remember the trailer thread, but I know the plywood high top one. I will agree with you that many times I am not very tactful. but I still feel that my advice was good especially for someone that has zero experience doing a project like this. if this person where to cut the top off the van and build a wood top the chances of failure are great. then what would she be left with? I feel that giving bad advice like some did, is far worse than being a naysayer. if I have ever been wrong with my advice I think I have owned up to it. lets face it she has no idea what she getting into and it shows in her post's, she said her brother has wood working skills and was going to help, but he's not posting we have no idea what his skills are. maybe he made candle stick holders in high school woodshop. maybe he builds houses, I don't know but I am willing to bet he doesn't build wood high tops for vans. so I really don't no what you expect from us when we see a bad idea. what if someone said, "I want to go dive off a 100 ft cliff" remember this person has no experience with this. do you want us to say good for you go for it. if you read the whole thread I tried to give her ideas for finding a used fiberglass high top in her area, so it wasn't like I was against her wanting a high top. I was just trying to be practical. one final thought if she goes ahead with this and it's a total failure then everyone that encouraged her is partially responsible, if on the other hand it all works out fine she can say I told you so and I would have to tip my hat to her. my 2cents. highdesertranger

Okay I feel like I have to say something now. You most certainly are not tactful in any way. Your other posts weren't too bad, I was fine with your opinions, your delivery really could've used work but they weren't bad. This one, on the other hand, is just down right insulting. And now I'm pissed. First of all "zero experience" and "she has no idea what she's getting into and it shows in her posts" What do you know about me? what you've read in 10 posts on an online forum. That's absolutely nothing. You have no idea what I am and am not capable of. You have no right to judge me based on my posts. Just because I'm a young girl and an artist and nanny with a rather upbeat personality does not give you any right to assume anything. It doesn't mean I fit into any stereo type. And never in my posts did I say I have zero experience. I said I hadn't put too much planning into yet because it's not my current project. But that doesn't mean when I do decided to fully plan it, I can't. For your information I have experience building things. No I have never built a wooden high top, but neither have you. So neither one of us has experience here. My parents have a camp with a heated garage bigger than our house with a full wood working/building studio. I have the tools to complete something like this. Your advice and opinion is fine and its yours to give but you do not in any way have to right to decided what I'm capable of. You also have absolutely no knowledge of what kind of experience I have because you don't know anything about me. And I do not need you making assumptions about my level of experience or my brothers. "I'm willing to bet he doesn't build wooden high tops for vans" no he doesn't. And guess what- NEITHER DO YOU. On top of that no one is responsible for my failure, if anything they're helping its potential success. Because there actually giving helpful pointers on how it could be done. Just because I'm a young girl does not mean anything. I am open and accepting of that fact that I might not be successful. And if I am I will not say "I told you so" because I'm better than that. I can assure you from this point on I do not want your "2cents" unless you decided to try and be a respectful contributor to my project.

 

[Starbuck]

Ok, first time posting here and I am loath to do so under these circumstances but I would like to mediate this a bit as this thread is disturbing to me. I feel moderately qualified as I spent my last 10 years of employment working as an IT system administrator for a large group of architects. Most all of these architects would identify themselves as artists. In all of my previous life and work experience, I have been praised for my common sense and fiscally responsible approach to getting projects completed. This approach has no value in an artistic environment. In fact it seems to be frowned upon as it stifles the artistic vision. In essence, I was the HDR to a large number of Caroline57's. Oil and water. Why I stayed there 10 years is a long story but in a nutshell, both the oil and the water learned to share, respect, learn and appreciate each other’s contributions to projects.
HDR's last response, in summary, is really saying "I don't know”, I don't have the facts. A classic left brained response. He sees this as a situation where Caroline57 has a "problem" and HDR is offering up a solution. Caroline57 has a "vision" and she might like assistance and support in creating it.
Caroline57, please don't think negatively about HDR. He has some great advice and experience to share, he may be a bit to direct but that approach is not meant disrespectfully. It is just to the point.  Please take lots of pictures and share them with us.
HDR, artists will follow a vision. They have a picture in their mind and they will follow it, damn the consequences. When that vision is completed, you may say WOW; this is so cool, beautiful, fun, whatever. Also remember, you don't have to drive it or pay for it.  Please continue to share your advice and experience.   
   :heart:

 

[gcal]

Hi everyone,

What's the best way for me to say what I think and not offend anyone.....I don't know so I'll just say it.

Van dwellers often complain about "NAYSAYERS" so this is why I'm so surprise to see that many of us don't seem to realize that they too are naysayers, big time. A few weeks back there was a post about a young couple who had a very unusual trailer. The trailer is totally what this particular couple needs. I was so taking back by the negative replies considering that we, as a group really, really, really dislike that kind of judgment when it's directed to us . People were even complaining about how much this couple was spending in grocery....in grocery for crying out loud. Who are we to judge how much someone can and can not spend on grocery.

The same thing happened yesterday. A young lady wants to make her own high top using wood and got a bit of a ear full. Only one poster gave helpful advice and you know what her reply was?

"Thank you for your support and faith in my idea! Ha ha it means a lot to know at least one person doesnt think I'm crazy."

There are a lot of ideas out there and it's not because they are not our own that they are bad, they are only different. I think we should stop being so negative with new and unusual stuff. I know we're better than that.

-Nicole

Sometimes ideas really are bad. Not everyone who comes up with abrainstorm should get encouragement. People who have relevant experience or knowledge that indicates that an idea is a bad one have a responsibilty to let the poster know that and not encourage her to walk blindly into trouble.

Re the grocery bill: If you are having steaks and crab legs, let me know. I'll be right over.

 

[gcal]

Okay I feel like I have to say something now. You most certainly are not tactful in any way.brother's  her posts weren't too bad, I was fine with your opindon't evenyour delivery really could've used work but they weren't bad. This one, on the other hand, is just down right insulting. And now I'm pissed. First of all "zero experience" and "she has no idea what she's getting into and it shows in her posts" What do you know about me? what you've read in 10 posts on an online forum. That's absolutely nothing. You have no idea what I am and am not capable of. You have no right to judge me based on my posts. Just because I'm a young girl and an artist and nanny with a rather upbeat personality does not give you any right to assume anything. It doesn't mean I fit into any stereo type. And never in my posts did I say I have zero experience. I said I hadn't put too much planning into yet because it's not my current project. But that doesn't mean when I do decided to fully plan it, I can't. For your information I have experience building things. No I have never built a wooden high top, but neither have you. So neither one of us has experience here. My parents have a camp with a heated garage bigger than our house with a full wood working/building studio. I have the tools to complete something like this. Your advice and opinion is fine and its yours to give but you do not in any way have to right to decided what I'm capable of. You also have absolutely no knowledge of what kind of experience I have because you don't know anything about me. And I do not need you making assumptions about my level of experience or my brothers. "I'm willing to bet he doesn't build wooden high tops for vans" no he doesn't. And guess what- NEITHER DO YOU. On top of that no one is responsible for my failure, if anything they're helping its potential success. Because there actually giving helpful pointers on how it could be done. Just because I'm a young girl does not mean anything. I am open and accepting of that fact that I might not be successful. And if I am I will not say "I told you so" because I'm better than that. I can assure you from this point on I do not want your "2cents" unless you decided to try and be a respectful contributor to my project.

"At building things." At building what? See, that is the problem with a number of this sort of post I have seen here, people looking for advice without providing any of the relevant information needed to give it. We stillddon't know what your experience building things means, if you have put together a few projects for Art class or if you hire out in the summer as a journeyman carpenter. You imply that your brother has woodworking  experience  and will help you, but we don't how comprehensive that experience  is, either.

If you don't tell people what skills you and your brother have, the default assumption is that you have little or none. That is for male or female, young or old.

 

[Caroline57]

Starbuck- Haha that is the most perfect description of an artist! I am aware of the flaws in this way of thinking but I tend to see my "vision" of projects or drawings as a sort of intuition that is always what is meant to be. Even if it doesn't work out or turns out awful I know its the path I'm suppose to take to get to an amazing final project, eventually. And I'm completely open to negative feedback and advice. but I don't want to someone to publicly say I have zero experience and don't know what I'm doing to other people. Thank you for mediating, I really don't want to participate in this, its to negative for me. I think sharing my project was maybe a bad idea, I don't know that I care to continue I didn't mean to start a storm before I even begun the project. I didn't want this kind of conflict. 

Gcal- I never asked for advice. I started a forum as a way to document and share my build and experience. I did not ask for advice on anything. So I had no reason to detail all my experience with building, and I shouldn't have to. I don't need to justify myself to pursue my own project. Im not building your van. I don't need to prove myself. All I want is to share and Im open to opinions and such but they weren't asked. I don't want to start anything, and I don't want to argue. I just wanted to share my journey and experience, apparently I just shouldn't.  I can't even believe it turned out this way.

 

[akrvbob]

I've seen this before and it won't happen again. Once there is blood in the water the sharks start to circle.

Any more posts in this thread that are not totally polite, friendly, and helpful will be deleted. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but it must be presented in a helpful and caring way.
Bob

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

I'm intensely interested in a successful wood hi top build. I will one day try out my john boat hi top theory lol

I scoffed at that budget/grocery article too, because it painted itself like it was the definitive example of the real costs of living in a van, and those costs were bloated. Like, ' hey, its not as cheap and easy living a van life as you thought!" potentially scaring off daydreamers with at best, skewed data.

ive seen similar topics discussed, but they clearly outline the context of their financing, income, and alternatives.

 

[highdesertranger]

caroline I must apologize I did not mean to offend you. starbuck said it more eloquently than I ever could. I must reread your thread because it seemed to me you said you didn't have any experience with this and I thought you pretty much stated that. if you notice in my post the first few references to you I used a non male or female tag. I used the word someone and person because I could not remember, but then I reread the thread and saw you where female. this is when I changed to a feminine description. I did not in any way mean that it was because you where female that you couldn't do this. at this point in time it's oblivious to me you don't want my advice, even though like I have stated I have actually worked on wood boats and have installed high tops on vans. so I will graciously(or maybe not so graciously) bow out of this conversation. highdesertranger

 

[Caroline57]

Hds- As I stated at the bottom of my post your welcome to comment and give your advice as long as your respectful and try to contribute to my project, not run it.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Sometimes ideas really are bad. Not everyone who comes up with abrainstorm should get encouragement. People who have relevant experience or knowledge that indicates that an idea is a bad one have a responsibilty to let the poster know that and not encourage her to walk blindly into trouble.

Re the grocery bill: If you are having steaks and crab legs, let me know. I'll be right over.

I bet the Wright brothers had a few responsible citizens tell them what they thought