Let's talk about wind power

[VanKitten]

:idea: One of my major reasons for joining this web site (although I have haunted this site for years) is to begin a discussion on wind power.

I have followed the introduction of the new, light weight, compact wind turbines.  www.dearchimedes.com.   Now they are available on the European market....I hope the USA will soon follow.      I have contacted them about sales into the USA. 

Given that these are not disturbed by wind turbulence (they do not need to be mounted high above the ground), right themselves into the wind, and weight a small enough amount...I want to look at putting a pole onto the back corner of a vehicle and figure out a removable mount to put one of these up.  What I don't know is how to hook it up to batteries.   

I wrote to the website ... But these folks are Dutch, and may not really be interested in answering my questions.  

Anyone have a wind turbine up?   I hope that they install to batteries pretty much the same regardless of the exact device??  

Anyone want to share a " How to......"

 

[BradKW]

Why removable? You'll get the best wind while you're driving...

 

[GotSmart]

:idea: One of my major reasons for joining this web site (although I have haunted this site for years) is to begin a discussion on wind power.

I have followed the introduction of the new, light weight, compact wind turbines.  www.dearchimedes.com.   Now they are available on the European market....I hope the USA will soon follow.      I have contacted them about sales into the USA. 

Given that these are not disturbed by wind turbulence (they do not need to be mounted high above the ground), right themselves into the wind, and weight a small enough amount...I want to look at putting a pole onto the back corner of a vehicle and figure out a removable mount to put one of these up.  What I don't know is how to hook it up to batteries.   

I wrote to the website ... But these folks are Dutch, and may not really be interested in answering my questions.  

Anyone have a wind turbine up?   I hope that they install to batteries pretty much the same regardless of the exact device??  

Anyone want to share a " How to......"

I have seen them around... 

The wind / solar hybrid charge controller is just a google away.  Not that expensive either.  

IMO, they are bulky and noisy.  (windmills) not stealth at all.   

People do not want to see a wind generator suddenly appear in the next camp site, and make noise all night.  WalMart might get upset at seeing one pop up in their parking lot.

 

[29chico]

Welcome, I'm sure you will find lots of great folks here. 

I'm also very interested in micro wind power.  Not too many forum members are currently using wind power here.  That would probably change quickly if a micro wind turbine became available that stowed small while traveling, did not require a tall pole and was quiet as well.

The below link might be worth checking out for more wind power info:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/categories/wind-power-generation

I'm also hoping that a ribbon based wind generator becomes a massed produced reality.  For a bit of info on that tech see the link below.

http://www.instructables.com/id/HOW-TO-build-cheap-VHS-tape-WINDBELT-generator/

The main battery charging issue with most wind turbines is that you must not disconnect the electrical load on the dynamo.  To prevent overcharging the battery bank a shunt is used switch the current to some kind of diversion load.  Often the diversion load is a DC water heating element.  Other than the need for a diversion load with most wind power systems, a lot of the battery charging issues are pretty much the same as having a solar system.

 

[TMG51]

Why removable? You'll get the best wind while you're driving...

I'm pretty certain you mean that as a joke but just to clear that one up before anyone gets any ideas, it is of course impossible to recoup energy from wind while driving. That wind is created by your own energy (the gas in your tank) and you cannot get more energy out of a system than you put into it - the drag of the wind on the turbine is removing more energy from your forward momentum (gas in your tank) than it is adding to your batteries.

The only way you could have "free" wind energy while driving is if the turbine were somehow only present and catching wind while you're coasting downhill and not spending energy on motion. While you're at it, devise a method to recoup energy from heat on your brakes...

Anyway, not directed at you, that was just a general statement before this thread got weird.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

http://mellomikeadventures.us/2014/05/review-of-windwalker-250-rv-wind-turbine/

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I've been reading HOME POWER magazine for more than a decade now, so I think I have a rudimentary understanding of wind power as well as micro-hydro and solar.

I confess that I don't see the attraction of wind power for a mobile lifestyle. At least not a land-based one.  I see it's advantages for live aboard cruising boats.

As has been pointed out, you can't deploy it at Walmarts or Truck Stops.  Commercial campgrounds probably won't let you use it on their sites.  It's obviously not going to work for Urban Stealthers.

Boondocking in National Forests?  Won't all the trees get in the way and block the wind?

The only place I can see using it is in the deserts, and solar panels work just fine there.

Solar panels have no moving parts.  Wind Turbines have bearings and brushes that are going to wear out.  The wind turbine that Spiff referenced has a 90 day warranty.  Solar panels typically come with a 20 or 25 year warranty.

And solar panels will provide power to your house batteries even while you are driving down the road.

Sorry to be so negative, but really, what's the point?

What advantage does it have over solar that would compensate for all of the negatives I just listed?

Regards
John

 

[LeeRevell]

A few random thoughts....

Not everyone covets "stealth". 

It can get quite breezy in the forest.  Especially a southern pine forest.

Wind power works at night, and on cloudy/rainy days.

Not all wind systems use the classic "windmill" design.  Wiki up the Cousteau wind ship "Alcyone".  An interesting technology.

 

[VanKitten]

The reason I have watched the development of Archimedes is because it is a nautilus design not the windmill sort.   It is small and compact.  It makes very little noise.   It is supposed to be productive even down to just 5 mph wind.   Is not effected by turbulence....so it doesn't need to be place high up...just at roof line is good enough.  And self correcting on position.   If I was going to buy a house at this point, I would get this for power.

And for what I want...I do not expect to spend all my time in areas where there is enough sun to power the batteries, at least not all the time.   I am thinking an SUV..so not much roof space, and I am thinking to take up a bunch of that with a roof top solar water heater for showers, etc.    

Removable so it can be stowed easily.  And so that I can secure it when I am not around.  It is enough of a curious looking device to attract attention.

Stealth isn't a concern for me.   But, it is small enough to stow over night...so, I could blend in if needed.    

Wiring is an interesting issue.   Using quick release connections, I was going to come through the bottom with wires...and just connect/disconnect at the top and drop the wires through the pole to snap together.  

Charge controller?   Fuses?  Do I need to have one for portable solar panel and one for the nautilus?    I had planned to have a control panel that lets me charge via the engine, the panel or the nautilus.   I worry how big this is going to get if there are devices dedicated to just one input.  

thank you for the link, I will follow it and see what else I can learn.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Wind power works at night, and on cloudy/rainy days.

Yeah, I get that.  But isn't there some minimum wind speed needed to produce workable power?

I'm sure there are some places - the coastline of the Pacific Northwest, for example - where wind would be more reliable than solar.

But I suspect that somebody who wants to travel widely across this country and Canada - as opposed to staying in one locale - would be better off with solar.

Still, I'm going to stop dumping negative psychic energy into this thread and drop out so you enthusiasts can get on with your discussion.

Regards
John

 

[GotSmart]

 

Wiring is an interesting issue.   Using quick release connections, I was going to come through the bottom with wires...and just connect/disconnect at the top and drop the wires through the pole to snap together.  

Charge controller?   Fuses?  Do I need to have one for portable solar panel and one for the nautilus?    I had planned to have a control panel that lets me charge via the engine, the panel or the nautilus.   I worry how big this is going to get if there are devices dedicated to just one input.  

Look up the charge controllers.  Some can take power from multiple sources.

Connections.  There are some that can just plug in. You instal a weatherproof box, and just plug it in like an extension cord. 

Fuses.  Those little pests are always a great idea so one problem does not destroy everything.

 

[highdesertranger]

couple of points that have already been made. ALL wind turbines make noise. there is NO silent wind turbine. now if you can put up with the noise is a whole other point. as TMG pointed out you can't use one in motion and get more useable power then the gas it takes to overcome the added drag. much better to just use the alternator. highdesertranger

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Got a friend who bought a wind turbine for his RV and was very disappointed with it.
I think you get more bang for the buck with solar.

 

[akrvbob]

I have a friend who has been using a wind generator for years and is very happy with it. He's set it up at several RTRs and it is noisy for sure but I would take it any day over a cheap genny. Setting it up takes less than 1/2 an hour and is very easy. In the desert it produces power a LOT! I did a post on it here:
http://www.cheaprvliving.com/installing-wind-generator/

Bob

 

[blars]

Another thing that surprises many first looking into wind power is the maximum wind speed most generators have to produce power. to avoid damage, they need to feather the props or apply brakes. Combined with the other factors, I consider them impractical for most people.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I like the idea of windpower, I think that every house should have one, like a tv antenna. On a van, the set up, take down and storage bothers me, surely there is a way to leave them set up and all you have to do is turn, flip or raise a pole.

 

[johnny b]

Noise is by far the biggest complaint along with the inefficiencies of low wind speeds. However, some of the new designs of both horizontal and vertical blades are addressing those issues. But like any technology, the 'better mousetrap' is out there waiting for the sales volume to bring down the cost. Adapting home/commercial successes to the mobile lifestyle can also be difficult.

On the issue of rooftop power while driving, I've investigated a bit and think an auxiliary power source could be done. I'm not talking about perpetual motion amounts of power but a small "Ram Air Turbine" that could give 20 amps or so into the system while on the road. Aircraft, both big and small use "RATs" in case of total loss of engine power.

This is an example of a RAT on a Cessna:



It is 8 1/2 inches in diameter and produces 6 amps at 28 volts at 85 mph.

I think something similar could be made from a small car alternator....experimenting to find the correct blade angles to produce the RPMs needed would be the biggest pain. I started investigating this because I did not want to run a fat ass cable from the front of my van all the way back into a trailer where my electric is.


I doubt the drag from a 8-10 inch fan in the air stream would be too much for a V8 vehicle. I mean if you want to talk drag, stick a commercial ladder rack and a couple of extension ladders on the roof...that doesn't stop a van in its tracks. 

Gizmag had an article (of course I can't find it now) that showed a concept of a half dozen 'ducted fan' style RATs mounted on a rack like an off-road light bar. Looked like a great idea, but alas there's that overwhelming dilemma of "demand" justifying investment.

 

[SoulRaven]

I believe if I was trying this endeavor, I would use a VAWT (VerticaL Axis Wind Turbine) because it could be permanently mounted and work both while driving and while parked. No rotating into the wind required.

 

[GotSmart]

Noise is by far the biggest complaint along with the inefficiencies of low wind speeds. However, some of the new designs of both horizontal and vertical blades are addressing those issues. But like any technology, the 'better mousetrap' is out there waiting for the sales volume to bring down the cost. Adapting home/commercial successes to the mobile lifestyle can also be difficult.

On the issue of rooftop power while driving, I've investigated a bit and think an auxiliary power source could be done. I'm not talking about perpetual motion amounts of power but a small "Ram Air Turbine" that could give 20 amps or so into the system while on the road. Aircraft, both big and small use "RATs" in case of total loss of engine power.

This is an example of a RAT on a Cessna:



It is 8 1/2 inches in diameter and produces 6 amps at 28 volts at 85 mph.

I think something similar could be made from a small car alternator....experimenting to find the correct blade angles to produce the RPMs needed would be the biggest pain. I started investigating this because I did not want to run a fat ass cable from the front of my van all the way back into a trailer where my electric is.


I doubt the drag from a 8-10 inch fan in the air stream would be too much for a V8 vehicle. I mean if you want to talk drag, stick a commercial ladder rack and a couple of extension ladders on the roof...that doesn't stop a van in its tracks. 

Gizmag had an article (of course I can't find it now) that showed a concept of a half dozen 'ducted fan' style RATs mounted on a rack like an off-road light bar. Looked like a great idea, but alas there's that overwhelming dilemma of "demand" justifying investment.

Maybe Bernie could give us all 'Free' mobile power!  

Keep your political opinions off the board.   :dodgy:  They seem to be as misinformed as the grasp you have of aerodynamics.  :huh:

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

On the issue of rooftop power while driving, I've investigated a bit and think an auxiliary power source could be done. I'm not talking about perpetual motion amounts of power but a small "Ram Air Turbine" that could give 20 amps or so into the system while on the road. Aircraft, both big and small use "RATs" in case of total loss of engine power.

The airplane 'ram air turbines' use gravity (i.e. the plane falling out of the sky) to power it.  2nd law of thermodynamics (paraphrased): you will get less power out than you put in.  If you put a turbine in the airstream, you will get less power out than the power required to turn the blades.  It can be done but it will cost you gas milage.  One reason you haven't seen it done on cars and trucks is that an alternator is simpler and more efficient.

I think something similar could be made from a small car alternator....experimenting to find the correct blade angles to produce the RPMs needed would be the biggest pain. I started investigating this because I did not want to run a fat ass cable from the front of my van all the way back into a trailer where my electric is.

When I was racing (and I think NASCAR still does this) the alternator was driven off the pinion shaft on the rear axle.  Should be possible to make a system running off of the trailer wheels/axle.  Another option is to convert to 110V at the alternator, run 12 ga wire back to a battery charger.  Not real efficient, but if you do a lot of driving who cares.

 -- Spiff