Lets discuss Wire Crimping/soldering

[bee]

This&nbsp;discussion&nbsp;started in another thread, but I didn't want to clutter it up.<br><br>When dealing with battery cable there are multiple ways of&nbsp;attaching&nbsp;end terminals.<br><br>I have up till now used the <strong>solder method.</strong><br>Pros:<br>lug terminals will not&nbsp;separate&nbsp;from cable. &nbsp;Great physical connection<br>solder prevents copper wire from corroding, so it keeps a good electrical connection longer.<br><br>Cons:<br>Takes a long time to make connection especially while you wait for it to cool back down.<br>I have heard that heating copper can make it brittle. Not sure if this is true.<br>People can screw it up, it takes some skill.<br>Here is the big one though I haven't verified it but it makes sense. &nbsp;I heard that it does not meet NEC code because if you are flowing high amperage (something wrong amperage) through the cable it can heat up and melt the solder allowing the connection to&nbsp;separate.<br><br><strong>Hammer crimp method</strong><img rel="lightbox" src="http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk98/russellbeyman/hammercrimper_zps25e24f01.jpg" class="bbc_img"><br><br><br>I bought the tool, but decided to go with soldering, I just didn't like it.<br><br>Pros:<br>cheap<br>fast<br><br>Cons:<br>mediocre connection<br>variable crimp quality<br>oxygen gets in and wires&nbsp;corrode<br><br>I just found out that these two methods above can be combined. &nbsp;Takes even longer but removes the NEC concern mentioned above. This is shown in the youtube video below.<br><br><br>[video]<br><br><br><br>The third method and maybe the best is with a&nbsp;professional&nbsp;hydraulic crimper.<br><br><br>The concept is that the multiple copper strands get squeezed together preventing any oxygen contamination over time. &nbsp;All the benefits of soldering without the downsides? <br><br>[video]<br><br>&nbsp;I have never used this method. &nbsp;I am hoping someone can fill me in on this and then we can make this part of the sticky.<br><br><br>

 

[wrcsixeight]

Crimping and soldering both have their places. &nbsp;<br><br>Both can be done right, but require skill, and the underskilled can do a hack job of either method.<br><br>The proper tools are required, as well as the skill to use them properly. &nbsp;Don't think you can just crush a connector with some pliers and have a viable long lasting connection. &nbsp;Don't think just because it is covered in silver colored solder, that the solder has properly bonded with the wire and the connector.<br><br>I use Harbor freight's hydraulic crimper on wires 8 awg and larger but have used it on 10 and 12awg with excellent results too, but this tool also requires a little finesse to get both a airtight and visually pleasing crimp, without 'ears'. &nbsp;It is also too easy to use all 30 tons of clamping force and have the copper shear off cleanly at the end of the connector/lug/terminal, as if it were cut with a lazer.<br><br>In general wires 10 awg and thinner I use this type of crimper:<br>http://www.networktoolsandsupplies.com/images/100-039a.JPG<br><br>I will solder connections on smaller wires, but my soldering gun is inadequate for thicker bundles. &nbsp;I need to remedy that.<br><br>In general, the plastic covered crimps, I remove the plastic and use heat shrink instead. &nbsp;Sometimes I use liquid electrical tape then heat shrink. &nbsp;Sometimes more than one layer. &nbsp;If I do use the crimps and leave the insulation on, it is just on something temporary, or something I am not worried about if it fails.<br><br>Connectors for crimping vary greatly in quality, from PVC covered steel to adhesive lined &nbsp;heat shrink connectors with a pellet of solder in the tinned copper that melts when you apply heat to shrink the heat shrink.<br><br>Avoid the connectors sold in large packs at harbor freight. &nbsp;Cheap high resistance steel. &nbsp;They do have some adhesive lined heat shrink connectors which are better, but I've had their connectors, properly crimped, heat up enough that I smelled burning plastic..<br><br>Too many methods to go into with soldering, and I am no guru with it. &nbsp;Still learning.<br><br>Couple tips, keep your greasy fingers off the gleaming copper.<br>Use rosin based flux, and not acid based or acid core solder, that is for plumbing<br>If you remove insulation on older wire and it is not shiny, make it shiny with a fine bristle brass brush before applying flux and then soldering.<br><br>It is relatively easy to get a twisted copper joint covered with solder. &nbsp;It is not so easy to get the wire hot enough so that the solder easily flows into the joint, without liquifying the insulation on both sides of it.<br><br>Do not forget to slide heat shrink over the wire before joining it. &nbsp;Make sure you do not get it hot before you intend to.<br><br>If using the liquid electrical tape under heatshrink, you should let the solvents evaporate before sliding the heat shrink over, which adds a great amount of time and is overkill anyway, in most applications.<br><br>If you insist on using electrical tape, the less you touch the sticky side with your greasy fingers, the better it will last. &nbsp;Do not stretch the last two wraps, and use a knife or scissors to cut the wire, do not tear it. <br>&nbsp;If you do use solder, wipe the joint with rubbing alcohol to get any flux residue off before covering with heat shrink, liquid electrical tape, or ughhh, regular electrical tape, and see if there any sharp strands ready to poke through any insulation you will add.<br><br>Also Do NOT buy electrical tape without the UL listing printed on the center cardboard roll. &nbsp;This is absolute junk, and just makes a sticky mess you will be dealing with at some point in the not too distant future.<br><br>My local 99 cent store sells UL listed E-Z fuse tape.<br>http://www.amazon.com/FUSE-TAPE-SUP...2879576&amp;sr=8-2&amp;keywords=e-z+fuse+tape<br><br>This stuff is impressive, and will never unravel. Super stretchy, and easy to use, but do keep your grimy fingers off the mating surfaces as much as possible.<br><br><br>

 

[bee]

Instead of electrical tape I just switched to linerless splicing tape. &nbsp;There is no glue residue to make a mess of everything. &nbsp;It should also be more water resistant.<br><br>Wrxcixeight &nbsp;About what gauge wire can that harbor freight press handle? &nbsp;The reviews vary from 2 gauge to 6 gauge as the maximum.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I've used it on 2 awg thick walled lugs, but it took a while moving the crimp 90 degrees compress a little more, then back and repeat. &nbsp;For a single compression, without moving the crimp 90 degrees, then 6 awg.<br><br>I consider taking the dies for 8+ awg wiring and grinding new hexes into them for viable large size dies. &nbsp;I am not sure how difficult this will be with an angle grinder.<br><br>HF would be smart to sell oversize dies. &nbsp;The tool itself has enough gumption to crush anything. &nbsp;Whoever designed the size of the dies was smoking crack

 

[blars]

One other problem with soldered connections is the solder can wick up the conductor making it stiff and subject to breaking in a high vibration enviornment, or where it flexes.&nbsp; Mostly a problem on larger wires.

 

[ccbreder]

I found some good information on this site; http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables

 

[bee]

Yeah here is another interesting link for using insulated connectors on small gauge wire. &nbsp;His testing shows you generally get what you pay for, which is depressing considering that he is using $600 crimpers.<br>http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125926<br><br>It looks like expensive crimpers can be found for reasonable prices used on ebay.<br><br>I think I am sold on&nbsp;professional&nbsp;quality crimpers. &nbsp;My next goal is trying to figure out how to do&nbsp;professional&nbsp;quality crimps on a budget. &nbsp;The harborfreight hydraulic crimper die issue is a deal breaker for me because I have a bunch of 1/0 gauge wire that I picked up cheap.<br><br><br>

 

[wrcsixeight]

I sense you are a DIY type of guy, but buying tools for one specific job is painful. &nbsp;This is HF's business model, sell a tool just cheap enough and barely adequate enough, that it is worth getting for a one time job completion.<br><br>Consider running a smaller gauge wiring in the route you plan on routing the 1 awg cable to get the length just right, then having a local boat/battery/stereo shop with the proper tools attach the Lugs/ring terminals for you.<br><br><br>

 

[bee]

Actually I think my plan will be to buy proper crimpers for small gauge which I will use many many many times. &nbsp;Then I will stick with soldering large gauge since I have experience with it and I think my skill is adequate.<br><br>This has&nbsp;truly&nbsp;been a learning experience for me. &nbsp;I am a mechanic buy trade, I even went to college for it. &nbsp;While I was taught proper soldering technique of small gauge wire never once did someone teach me the difference between crimpers for insulated vs non insulated terminals, or the different types of crimpers. &nbsp;I am kinda&nbsp;appalled&nbsp;by that fact. &nbsp;But hey now I know.<br>Glad this forum exists, just like you showed me that if a magnet sticks to a terminal I don't want it, clever.<br><br><br>

 

[wrcsixeight]

Well, I do use my plier crimpers on both insulated and non insulated connectors, but I know how to do it. &nbsp;I think a lot of the &nbsp;hand crimping tools are for those who understand the procedure, but not what is actually occurring in the vice's dies.<br><br>My Buddy has a set of ratcheting crimpers where you just stick the connector in the jaws, insert the wire and squeeze three times. &nbsp;But I am not seeing how this makes a good tight crimp when all it does is crush the connector, rather than fold the ends in on itself into and around the wire, then compress it.<br><br>Sure he can join wires faster with this 'idiot' tool. &nbsp;I'd bet a million my crimps are stronger and have less resistance all other factors being equal. &nbsp;I have used his ratcheting crimpers and pulled on the wire and had it come right out with not much force, perhaps 10% of the time.<br><br>I don't like soldering large wires just because the adjacent insulation melts, and the wicking of the solder making for an inflexible area next to the lug/terminal, but I guess with enough practice this can be mitigated. &nbsp;Also for the reasons listed by others, that if done improperly, huge loads can melt the solder and the wire falls out of the terminal because there is no mechanical connection.<br><br>I think it is also too easy to get a soldered joint to look adequate or even pretty, when it is in fact a cold soldered joint with high resistance and prone to heating and failure at the worst possible time and place.&nbsp;

 

[bee]

Even though I still plan on getting a pair of ratcheting crimpers, I think I understand what your saying. &nbsp;I could see them being completely useless with slightly undersized terminals. &nbsp;They&nbsp;definitely&nbsp;will not be able to replace common sense. &nbsp;If they do work, they will be able to do something that they can do best which is better&nbsp;repeat-ability vs other methods.<br>I currently use the cheap style crimper/strippers and they have terrible&nbsp;repeat-ability. &nbsp;I really want to resolve that problem hence my interest in the ratcheting style.<br><br><br>The solder method I have used on large terminals is what I will call the plug method. &nbsp;I call it that because you can buy pre portioned plugs of solder that you drop in the terminal, you use a torch to heat the terminal up nice and hot and then you slide the wire into the pool of molten solder and let it cool. &nbsp;I have done it with regular solder though not with the pre portioned plugs. &nbsp;I like the method because you don't burn insulation, you have less chance of solder&nbsp;creeping&nbsp;up the wires making it stiffer. &nbsp;You are not overheating the copper wires making them excessively brittle. &nbsp;I am not saying it is as good as a properly crimped connector but I think it is better then most crimped connections I have ever seen. &nbsp;The only requirement is that you have to use quality terminals otherwise the solder plug will leak out. &nbsp;The thicker quality terminals also cause it to cool slower which I am sure is also a benefit.

 

[Willy]

&nbsp;As posted on another thread, I just use sections of copper pipe that I crimp down with lineman's pliers (crimper on the rear). Cut to length with a tubing cutter and deburr the ends. For lug ends I just flatten the end and drill to size. Been doing so for years and have yet to have one 'let go'. I'll post some pics in a bit.. if I don't forget. ..Willy.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I was actually gonna make my own ring terminals for my solar controller connections <br>

<br>like how willy describes, but pricing buying the correct size ring terminals or buying a huge length of copper to make my own, then spending the effort to make my own, the former strategy won. &nbsp;If 'd had the proper size wiring on hand and didn't have to buy it, absolutely I'd make my own copper pipe ring terminals. &nbsp;I love the idea and think it is genius.<br><br>Bee, I do have one ring terminal attached by the method you describe, but I filled the ring terminal with my own solder after fluxing and then inserted the cold 2 awg wire. &nbsp;After it cooled, I removed it and stressed it, and the wire pulled out of the lug with a nice perfectly formed solder mold.<br><br>I then roughed up the interior of the lug, refluxed it, refilled it with solder, made it molten along with heating the wire, and then formed a solid connection that time, but I burnt the ***** out of the &nbsp;cable insulation and it took about 5 times longer than using my crimper, and a whole lot more cursing. &nbsp;I think inserting cold wire into a molten lug of solder is too much temperature difference.<br><br>My technique obviously needs practice, but I don't get any more, as i just spend my efforts on crimping and &nbsp;sealing rather than fluxing and heating and not trying to melt insulation.&nbsp;<br><br>I'd put my Klein crimped crimps.&nbsp;<br>

<br>against any ratcheting crimper crimps anyday, and I am not a betting man.<br><br>Note the dies on all these plier type crimps vary a little in design, and I am only really familiar with the product above on 10 awg and thinner wire, but on both insulated and non insulated connectors 10 awg and thinner, I have full confidence in connection quality/resistance, as long as the connectors are not HF brand, and not steel.

 

[Willy]

&nbsp;My lineman's pliers are made by Klein too, and a helluva tool it is too! Has the same crimper as yours does, but it's at the rear. ..Willy.

 

[highdesertranger]

klein makes excellent electrical tools i use those same crimpers and i have ratchet crimpers never use the ratchet anymore.&nbsp; highdesertranger

 

[bee]

Just to give an update. &nbsp;I bought a used amp ratchet crimper, arguably the best hand crimper you can buy. &nbsp;<a href="http://www.ebay.com/itm/111027413286?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&amp;_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.ebay.com/itm/111027413286?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&amp;_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649</a><br>It is designed specifically for double crimp terminals. &nbsp;I also compared it to the klein style crimper mentioned above.<br><br>Here are my findings.<br><br>The klein style crimper is way better then the cheap crappy crimp strip pliers I had been using previously. &nbsp;It makes a good connection that passes my pull test.<br><br>However!!! &nbsp;The ratcheting crimper wins by a large margin under certain conditions. &nbsp;Those conditions are, you must be using the right size wire with a proper double crimp connector. &nbsp;The ratcheting crimper applied much more force then the klein style and created a nice compact crimp. &nbsp;The strain relief crimp that it makes is star shaped making it more effective.<br><br>When using the ratchet style crimper with standard terminals you would buy at autozone or lowes it was useless. &nbsp;It failed even a mild pull test. &nbsp;You must use genuine double crimp terminals only, which most likely have to be bought online, or at a marine store. &nbsp;The only double crimp starter kit I found for a reasonable price is here http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NI1HR4/ref=oh_details_o00_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&amp;psc=1 &nbsp;They can be found cheaper at waytek.com but you have to buy in bulk.<br>&nbsp;<br>Verdict:<br>The ratcheting crimper works great but it is very limited in its versatility. &nbsp;Next I will be trying it with heath shrink terminals, but I don't have high hopes, it is very picky about what terminals you use.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Thanks for the update.<br><br>I recently had a chance to use some Thomas and Betts crimpers that my landlord owns. &nbsp;The dies are shaped differently than my Kleins<br><br>[/img]http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/6/Thomas-Betts-WT111M-rw-86623-151062.jpg[/img]<br><br>and was able to achieve some really professional looking crimps with the 14-16/ blue, insulation removed butt connectors with a little practice, but still like my Kleins better, probably cause I am used to them though.<br><br>I should say I am relocating the crimp within the crimping plyers at least 3 times usually 4 per crimp. &nbsp;First to push the split into the wire. Then relocate to push one side deeper into the wire, then the other, then a different part of the die to compress the whole crimp, and that is just one side of the wire connection. &nbsp;I do the same thing with the other end of the connector.<br><br>I can't really imagine just inserting 2 wires into a butt connector and squeezing.<br><br>But on a stress test with 18 awg wire &nbsp;pulling on the wire with considerable force, I break the wire, the wire simply cannot pull from the crimp.<br><br><br>