Leaving religion behind...

[Seraphim]

The existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven. An atheist believes that since God cannot be proven, and has never manifested Himself, he doesn't exist.


An agnostic believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


The believer also realizes God cannot be proven, but doesn't accept a lack of manifestation as evidence God does not exist - they argue faith is the basis of any religion.

I'm not sure what the word is for someone who believes God can be scientically proven. Or disproven.

 

[Seraphim]

But the term agnostic is about knowledge. Theism and atheism are terms about belief. A theist can be either gnostic or agnostic: Gnostics believing certain knowledge is necessary for someone to achieve eternal reward, while agnostic theists believe only faith ( often interspersed with good works) is necessary.

 

[mockturtle]

I wasn't raised in a Christian family.  My father was an agnostic, my mother is still, at 89, a diehard atheist.  My sister is a Jewish-Buddhist and my brother is some kind of pantheist.  I was both an atheist and an agnostic most of my life but became a Christian at the age of 37.  It wasn't so much that I chose Christ but that He chose me.  Faith is a gift from God, not something we develop on our own.  I still consider myself a free-thinker, have read the Classics and enjoy intellectual discussions.  

 

[HarmonicaBruce]

A "True Believer" needs no proof either way, he/she has their faith.  A true Atheist is the same.

Most of us tend to fall somewhere between the two extremes.

What are you saying?  Do you think most of us are not true believers, and still not atheists?  Somewhere between?  How can you be between believing god exists, and insisting god doesn't exist (all while NOT defining god).  Do you mean most people are like agnostics, they say something like "we can't know", or something similar?  

As Lee stated - that's a weak semantical ploy.

It's just a rough outline, not a complete product.  If it's such a "weak semantical ploy", find a fault with it.  You can't, because no one can, because it's solid.
 

...and where's the math?

In math, everything is defined, other than "set" and "element of a set".  Until we have a definition of "god", any discussion of god is non-sense.

The concept of "imaginary", i.e. "not real", yet still existing, it pure math.  
  

Why am I even bothering to respond to this...?

You'd be better able to answer than me.

 

[Seraphim]

More semantic games...

 

[Seraphim]

Mockturtle

My mom was Catholic and my dad Lutheran, back at a time when the two certainly didn't marry lol. Rather than offend one side or other of the family, they offended everyone and married in a civil ceremony. They agreed not to influence their kids one way or another, so religion wasn't discussed in the house. I grew up a conservative Protestant, and considered the ministry. I also loved science, having won our senior year science fair in the Earth Science category. Amazing how many people couldn't understand how such an intelligent potential scientist could actually be a theist - as if the two were mutually exclusive. I still see it a lot, from people who assume intelligence negates faith - or vice versa.

 

[Seraphim]

Also amazing how some people think a belief in - and understanding of - science should negate faith.

 

[HarmonicaBruce]

More semantic games...

Seriously, higher math is nothing but semantic games.  It's the highest form of human thinking, the only field of intellectual inquiry that has NEVER been wrong.

Also amazing how some people think a belief in - and understanding of - science should negate faith.

Everything about science requires NO faith, other than faith in the scientific method, and faith in our own free will.  Scientific method means we prove things, we don't have "faith" that they are true.  Faith means "belief without proof".  Actually, it means belief, even in the face of proof to the contrary.

 

[Wabbit]

2 - This begs the question, define god.

Would you agree that for the purpose of clarity, we could define "God", as "Creator"?

3 - The one thing we do know about "god" is that "god" is in fact, a word.

Ok, lol and we could also agree that it spells dog backwards, but that is not what people are really talking about when the topic of god comes up.

4 - So we can re-state the question, what does the word "god" mean?

No need to restate anything if we can accept that "Creator" is what we are talking about(or some other meaning we agree to)

5 - This begs the question, what do words (in general) mean?

No, it doesn't beg the question. This is kinda a stoner question/statement(no offense meant, just a turn of phrase). Words are how we humans communicate.

6 - Words mean what most people think they mean.

OK...sure.

7 - The word "god" means, and always has meant, the unknown.

This is non sequitur, as earlier you stated(and I agreed), that god was known and it was known as a word, which we all knew. So this is where I no longer follow your logic. However, if we can backup and say that not only is god a word(duh lol), but it is also something else and that something else is going to be referred to as ____________, fill in the blank

8 - We'll never know everything, so god exists, and by definition, we can never know anything about god.

I do not know if we(sentient beings) will "never" know everything, most likely not, but I do not know that as fact. God exists as a "word", I am not discussing whether god exists as a "word", I am talking of a more substantive type of "God", "Creator", or whatever people want to call it to themselves. So for me, god does not automatically exist. Once again you contradict what you said earlier when you say that we can never know anything about god. It's a complex discussion for me, but I do not think poorly of anyone who wants to keep it simple. It is something that when some people think about to much, can lead to some head spinning thinking lol.

God exists, in people's imagination.  Imaginary numbers exist, but they're not real.  However, they are useful.
God is a metaphore.  

The first part of this I have no problem agreeing with, however, when you say that god is a metaphor, hopefully you mean to say that for you, god is a metaphor. Some people don't think god is a metaphor. To me, whether god is or isn't a metaphor, is just someone's opinion. One they are entitled too.

I pray, when I can't think of anything else to do to improve my situation.  Sometimes 
it results in an improvement.  Of course I suspect the improvament would have happened without my prayer.
  
That's just the outline, there's lots of filling in to do.

I think that praying when you can't think of anything else to do, sounds pretty healthy. I am sometimes confused when I hear football coaches asking god to help them win the big game lol. I think that if god heard that, god would be like "Win it yourself!" What if the other team is praying too?!? Poor God!

Hopefully none of this is found disrespectful, not meant to be but sometimes I am told that I lack social skills...lol. Take care.

 

[mockturtle]

My husband was a scientist with a PhD in biochemistry.  He also became a Christian later in life.  It did not negate his belief in science.    Science is, IMHO, merely the study of nature, which is God's creation. 

 

[Ed Hawley]

By definition, vandwellers are non-conformists and independent thinkers. I'm curious if others here, like myself, reached a point in their lives where they cast off religion as with other societal norms? If you are religious, this thread is by no means directed toward you. Most of my friends are somewhat religious, and many of them very much so. I am not here to challenge the religious beliefs of anyone.  But I do enjoy meeting (online and off) other people who decided at some point in their lives that religion no longer had meaning for them.  To state it more plainly, I have identified as an atheist for several years now.  I'm just curious if others on this site have put religion behind them along with other trappings of "normal" society?

Hi Tim, i have not really like organized religion. :dodgy: Having one person telling me what to think doesn't work, I like to think for myself. I do believe in God, as I understand him, and I talk to him every day. Having to go to church isn't anything I want to do, for me it is a waste of time and energy. I do not think myself as an atheist because I do believe in God, but I don't have to sit in a church to talk to him. :angel: Believe in what you want and thank you for not pushing you beliefs off on me or anyone else. Ed

 

[Chancebond]

Science without religion is blind. Religion without science is foolish! -Albert Einstein

See, science proves the existence of God! It is up to you to figure out which one is right! (Hint: Jesus) Lol

 

[Seraphim]

My husband was a scientist with a PhD in biochemistry.  He also became a Christian later in life.  It did not negate his belief in science.    Science is, IMHO, merely the study of nature, which is God's creation. 

That's kind of the thought process I achieved as a kid, and the feeling never left me.

Bryan

Not disrespectful. I often question what people attempt to justify with religion, what they expect of their religion, how they came to develop their own beliefs. When she got older, and after dad passed away, mom started re exploring her Catholic religion. I'd point out something in the Bible, and she say she never knew that. She told me, growing up in a Catholic school, the students didn't read the Bible, the priests and nuns told them what to believe. Again, I think this is the explanation for most people who lose their faith. They are taught that something is 'this way', and when they figure out that's not necessarily so, they lose faith in everything they were taught. I feel faith is something one discovers (or not) through a personal journey and study. Questions are a natural part of the process, and I don't stint on asking them. My family is still hard core Christian Right, and I love asking them questions - they don't always appreciate it though. My son learned early not to come home from church and say, "This is accurate" without having researched the topic and was prepared to back it up somehow. First time I said, "Prove it" he got pissed, then he jumped into some studies in earnest just to prove me wrong. It became a competition, then researching something became a habit.

So never be worried about questioning something. Actually, I wrote a poem about the topic of God being on both sides. I'll see if I can find it. Started out:

"What sin did the children of Jericho sin..."

Ended up about being unable to be sure which side of the wall God was actually on.

 

[LeeRevell]

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking science somehow negates or disproves God. Others claim God doesn't allow for the concept of Evolution.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have always been very 'into' science, enjoying study of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc. I am a firm believer in the PROVEN concept of Evolution (it is no longer a theory!). I have no problem resolving my religious views and my scientific views. Each comfortably augments and supports the other perfectly.
Were I locked into a fixed church situation I may have thought differently, but I too consider myself a Free Thinker.

 

[Seraphim]

I suppose I consider everything in science a theorem, as would any good scientist (IMO); It's valid as long as nothing comes along to disprove it, and the more evidence for its validity, the stronger the theorem. Don't get me wrong, I believe the process of evolution accounts for the biological status quo, but I'm hesitant to proclaim any theory as 'proven' - theorems undergo constant modification as new information is uncovered. And mathematics is the most theoretical of all. That's how they remain viable. We are constantly learning. Perhaps one day we'll know everything and can claim things are 'proven', but I doubt it lol.

 

[mconlonx]

Define 'portable belief'

In my head, this is a religious belief based on the teachings of some sect or other, usually focused on a regional gathering place or building, but in this case, taken with an individual on the road to different locations. 

 

[Seraphim]

Thanks.

 

[mconlonx]

Thanks.

Really, what I'm wondering is how a religious social scene transfers to the road. As I mentioned before, I grew up Catholic, saw the sense of community withing the larger secular community and found that a lot of people leaned on that for the majority of the social scene. Same with some of the other churches in town -- Methodist, Baptist, Congregational, etc. 

Does that community extend to travelers, on the road? When you head into a strange church in a new location, are you greeted as one of the flock in an inclusive sense, or is there some outsider ostracizing involved? How much do traveler's lean on churches or church social services -- take advantage of free meals/food pantry? Ask for a spot to overnight in a church parking lot? Meet up with others and accept invitations to dinner/a place to stay, shower, rest?

 

[kyonu]

Interesting topic. As a like-minded viewer, here are my thoughts:

I am a scientist. Not a PHD or conformed educational speaker, but I perform science in my aboriginal life in the modes of realizing or experimenting with every day objects and habits. I love learning new things, and it keeps my life meaningful.

As such, being an atheist, I must exclaim: if there is a God, so be it! I will not doubt if there is one, and I can change my views. Growing up with a heavily Christian family, I realized about age 17 that there is no way that a believer, when faced with the truth, will change their belief. That is the Christian way, and it helps a LOT of people. And that's okay, but not for me.

I found that certain people need religion. It helps them, gives them personal empowerment to overcome their daily lives. It helps depression, addiction, self-loss and more. Some people *need* religion in their lives, or their lives are lost. This, I think, is the point of religion; to give hope to those have have none. I believe the original people who developed the scriptures intended for it to be a helping hand in times of need since, as we know as fact, that time in history was perilous.

Fast forward to nowadays, I found I do not need a helping hand. I am capable of creating my own future and giving myself my own life to live. Since society is bound to religion and created, controlled and even pushes toward religion, I did not want to be a part of it. Today they are almost synonymous, and I do not need either if that is the path society takes.

For all it's worth, I find religion has its uses, and what it does it does well. It is controlling, but some people need that in their lives. If people didn't, imagine where we'd be today! I also find that because society uses and abuses religion to fit its needs (in very many cases, but not all), it will never be free of oppression in any way. In this definition oppression isn't a bad thing, because without it, some people would be lost. Oppression in these terms is just a "verb" describing a word best fitted to the needs of the majority. Of course there is bad oppression, but then there is just sated, sentient oppression.

With those thoughts in mind: I do not favor those who seek to control with religion but obviously vow against its teachings (such as politics, etc), but favor those who use it for its intended purposes. People who take religion for what its truly worth are great people, and a joy to hang around.

It's not for me, but it is necessary in a society driven by laws and requirements. My $.02

 

[mockturtle]

The expanded theory of evolution has not been 'proven'. In fact, IMHO, it has more holes than Swiss cheese!