Is this battery on it's way out?

[ZoNiE]

Look real close at that battery. You may see seams on top that indicate there is a flush mounted cover that covers the caps or has them integrated into it. Many "sealed" batteries really are not. They have to have a way to fill them when new... Auto manufacturers are guilty of this design.

 

[SternWake]

It could be worth looking for a batteries+ and seeing if they have any X2power batteries.


These are relabelled Northstar AGM,s, and batteries+ adds another year to the warranty to Northstar's 4, and they might be the same price as the Odyssey sale prices

Northstar and Odyssey both tout their thin plate pure lead technology, and their Specs on equal size batteries are nearly Identical.

Northstar however does not stress a 40% recharge rate when deeply cycled, though I found it performs better when it gets it.

Northstar also lists an Absorption voltage of 14.46 which falls more inline with what a Vehicle's voltage regulator might allow.

I can say I am finding my Northstar to be an Impressive battery, So far, after nearly 2 years and about 200 deep cycles to the 50% range, and about 2 dozen to 30%.

But it simply needs that high amp recharge to behave well.  I was up way too late last night and took it down to 55AH from full and it was reading 12.03v under an 8 amp load.  I combined an older 25 amp schumacher and my 40 amp Meanwell, and it was accepting 63 amps for close to 40 minutes before amps began tapering.

My alternator has delivered higher amperages, but never sustained them as long as the Meanwell could to complete the charge.

I Love it when there is no worry about feeding a battery too fast with rather extreme amperages.  This is what makes the lesser$$ AGMs much less appealing to me as they generally say no more than 30 amps per100AH capacity.

Since my Northstar is my Only battery at the moment, I am considering putting a Small Odyssey battery as an emergency jumpstarter battery where my group31 flooded battery previously resided.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Update:  I've been charging the battery as time and weather here allow.  Got it up to 12.5 volts.

Used my clamp-on ammeter with the key off and got a reading of 1.2 AMPS, which caused me to freak.  Then I realized that the under hood light had come on automatically. 

I've noticed that the light will go off by itself after a certain amount of time, so I waited for that to happen and re-read the parasitic draw test.  The meter bounced between 0 and .1 amps, which is a lot more like it.

Re-ran the starter draw-down test with the battery starting at 12.5 and going down to 10.3 before bouncing back up when the engine started.

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

What is your charging source?  Can you get the battery to 15 volts at the terminals and hold it there until amps taper to nearly 0.0x?


Regular flooded batteries do not come to a 'dead stop' where it requires very little, basically unmeasurable with basic tools, current, to hold them at high voltages when fully charged, but Maintenance free flooded batteries can, as well as AGM batteries.

10.2v cranking is not too bad really.  The battery is not healthy, but nor is it ready for hospice.  If you can get it upto 15v and hold it there until amps taper to nearly nothing I bet it would perform significantly better on the starter voltage draw down test.

As far as the parasitic draw, some newer vehicles have a relatively high parasitic draw for a period of time, like 15 minutes or so, after the key was pulled from the ignition then it tapers to the sub 0.10 amp range.

My 89dodge van has a 0.15a draw when the doors are open, even if there are no map lights on and bulbs removed from the one which points at the ignition key and on the headlamp switch itself.  I have to rotate the headlamp switch all the way CW to turn it off.

There is a time delay relay just eating up that 0.15 amps.  Tiny aluminum colored cylinder about 5/8 inch diameter and 2 inches long, just chewing up some battery whenever the doors are open but the headlamp switch not turned/ rotated/ Dimmed past the detente, to  OFF.

If I did not have a battery monitor I might never have noticed this parasitic draw,  I was certainly unaware of it for 7 years previous to it.

Last night I wired up a red LED light for my workshop.  I have some small alligator clamps on it at the battery.  To turn it off I just unhook the ground clip.  I let this clamp rest on the top of the dirty battery case, and the light turned back on, very dimly.  The LEDs draw so little current it was able to barely complete the circuit through the damp dirtyness on the battery top!

Keeping a battery top clean is wise.  Some say Pledge furniture polish is the ticket for this.  I put some silicone spray on a rag and wipe it down, as i do not have any Pledge furniture polish.  I think some car wax might be better at repelling dust accumulation, but battery acid/charging fumes eats all.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

What is your charging source?  Can you get the battery to 15 volts at the terminals and hold it there until amps taper to nearly 0.0x?

I have access to an old service station battery charger from the 60s we inherited from my uncle, who used to run an ARCO station.  It's a heavy ******* that's on wheels.

It has an analog ammeter, and a mechanical timer, a hi-low switch and a turn switch marked 1,2,3, and 4

I was running it on Hi-3 and the ammeter was showing 25 amps going in, which never seemed to drop.  I'd set the timer for 30 minutes, then would let it set for 30 minutes, and repeat to the point that it got about 2 and a half hours at 25 amps.

Today, I put it on again, but also hooked my multi-meter up.  On Hi-3, the voltage just kept going up til it was reading 16.4 volts, at which point I turned it down to Lo-4.  It dropped to 14.4 volts and about 15 amps.

Any suggestion on how to get the best use out of this dinosaur?  Thanks.

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

I have access to an old service station battery charger from the 60s we inherited from my uncle, who used to run an ARCO station.  It's a heavy ******* that's on wheels.

It has an analog ammeter, and a mechanical timer, a hi-low switch and a turn switch marked 1,2,3, and 4

I was running it on Hi-3 and the ammeter was showing 25 amps going in, which never seemed to drop.  I'd set the timer for 30 minutes, then would let it set for 30 minutes, and repeat to the point that it got about 2 and a half hours at 25 amps.

Today, I put it on again, but also hooked my multi-meter up.  On Hi-3, the voltage just kept going up til it was reading 16.4 volts, at which point I turned it down to Lo-4.  It dropped to 14.4 volts and about 15 amps.

Any suggestion on how to get the best use out of this dinosaur?  Thanks.

Regards
John

I bet the Ammeter on that wheeled charger is way off.  That current has to be going somewhere, and the battery is not taking 25 amp for 3 hours, not any car jar size battery anyway.

Be careful of heating of the battery beyond 120f.  Confirm voltage and amperage

My neighbor's alternator failed and he brought me his sealed wet battery which measured 9.2v.  I put it on my meanwell and it took 25 amps to instantly shoot upto 14.7v, but then as the battery woke up, the voltage dropped and the amps started increasing.  I noticed the battery heating and lowered the voltage as low as my Meanwell would go to 13.12v, and it was still taking 20 amps, but it was not heating up.

I slowly raised voltage upto 14.7v and about 8 hours later it was taking only 0.3a.

Those old wheeled chargers tend to be Amp sources with no Voltage control.

BLasting a battery past mid to high 15's with high amps is very abusive to it.  Generally high amps can get a battery to 14.5 safely, but then it should be voltage limited, and the amps required to hold 14.5 will keep declining.

When they decline to near  in between 1.5a and zeroAmps  at 14.5v, the battery is just about  as full as it is going to get.

At this point one can initiate an EQ charge on an abused sulfated battery to try and recover some capacity.

No more than 5% of th rated capacity(5 amps for a 100Ah battery) should be applied until voltage hits 16v, or if the amps start rising instead of declining, or Specific cgravity no longer rises, or if the battery starts heating excessively.

The Old wheeled chargers just blast right past any voltage limitations and it is like putting a funnel down the throat of a sick person who needs to eat, and pouring in the soup and crackers.

I'd not leave a battery connected to a vehicle whose charging source allows 16.4v.

If you use this charger again, you've got to bring the Fluke and a clamp on meter and monitor it.  If it is actually accepting 15 amps at 14.4v, then the battery is nowhere near fully charged, somehow.

 

[ccbreder]

The Battery is five years old and has been abused most of it's life. Replace the Battery.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Yup.  The battery was under 12 volts this morning, again.  I will be ordering a new Odyssey before the sale ends this month.

Thanks everyone!

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

Yup.  The battery was under 12 volts this morning, again.  I will be ordering a new Odyssey before the sale ends this month.

Thanks everyone!

Regards
John

That is a fast drop in voltage, whether it be from self discharge or parasitic drain, or a combination of both.

I'd investigate the possibility of a parasitic drain further.  If the vehicle sits a lot, the Odyssey will be no happier than any other battery with a parasitic drain on it.

When I got My Northstar AGM it read 12.84v on the shelf.  It was my engine battery for the ride home from the battery distributor, and I saw it was requiring very little amperage to hold it at 14.9v, and when back in my spot the voltage quickly levelled off to 12.86.

Northstar Says their fully charged rested voltage should be over 13.0v

At the time I had only a schumacher 2/12/25 amp charger.  I'd drop voltage with my headlights to below 12.6v and start the charger, but it would only run a short time before quitting and going back to float voltage.  It thought the battery was full as it took very little amperage to bring it to high voltages, and I wanted to see over 13.0 resting volts and was not getting it.

That night I discharged it to 50% or so and then recharged it at 25 amps with the schumacher.  From this point on the resting fully charged voltage has been 13.06v and it maintained that voltage for 3 weeks over the Xmas holiday last year, and it still had the very slight  engine computer parasitic draw on it.

The Odyssey might be similar in needing one deep cycle and a high amp recharge to wake up on initial usage.  I think Odyssey states their fully charged resting voltage is 12.84 or higher.

I do not know if my NS would have woken up on its own just used as an engine starting battery.  Originally I intended on using it as engine only/ emergency capacity battery, but now it is pulling double duty as I wore out my flooded 'deep cycle' and have not replaced it, mostly because th Northstar has impressed me so much pulling double duty.

Their tech manual has some good info specific to a 100Ma parasitic drain.  It is an Expensive high quality battery, so it behooves you to know how to keep the princess supermodel working as hard as a thick ankled farmgirl.

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/us-ody-tm-001_0411_000.pdf

The 4 hours held at 14.7v should not be discounted after any deeper cycle.  It is not easy to accomplish this with standard chargers.  Odyssey does sell their own line of charger$, which are rebranded Schumachers with a different charge algorithm, but they are very pricey, and max out at 25 amps, where the group31 odyssey needs 40 amps when cycled deeply.

Do not let that wheeled charger loose on the Odyssey unless you closely monitor it and do not allow it to exceed 14.7v.

One cheap solution to maintaining 14.7v is a adjustable voltage power supply such as this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...d_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=B00ENFBXQS

Despite The claims in the description, these have no safety measures built in.  A depleted battery can overload them.  I had one which smoked itself making 538 watts when rated for only 350.  If hooked to a battery which is charged enough that it cannot accept more than ~30 amps it should be OK.  These also go as high as 15.3v.

The next step up is the Megawatt.  The above product is a cheap clone of this product, which does have protections against overload:

http://www.amazon.com/MegaWatt®-S-4...d=1447613984&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=megawatt

Jim in Denver had one of these but the cheap sleeve bearing 60mm fan  failed and smoked the unit. his is the only failure I know about.

I own a Meanwell rsp-500-15 which I feel is a Step above the megawatt.  Mine will do 40 amps at any voltage from 13.12 to 19.23.  I've added extra ventilation and heatsinking, and a 10 turn potentiometer to control voltage and putt a wattmeter on the DC output to count AH as well as display voltage/amperage/wattage/. peak watts/amps and minimum voltage.

This little 40 amp power supply might not have the brute amps available of some of the huge wheeled  transformer based chargers, but it allows precise manual control of battery charging, and 40 amps is no slouch either.

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-My-newest-electrical-toy

I really love the Meanwell, and its ability to dial a voltage.  It will put out upto 40 amps until it achieves that voltage.  Once it has held absorption voltage as long as desirable, I then lower voltage to 13.6v and it can power all my DC loads while maintaining 100% charge.

It is the reason I can keep my NorthStar AGM happy and performing admirably.  I do not drive enough to fulfill the high amp requirement as often or for as long as needed, and my 200 watts of solar is far too little to meet the high amp recharge requirements.