Is this battery on it's way out?

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Optimistic Paranoid

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So as I mentioned in another post, I just bought a 2012 F250.  It starts fine - in our current warm weather.  There was no voltmeter in the dashboard, only an idiot light, so I bought one of those digital voltmeters that plugs in to a cigarette lighter socket.  The readings on that were disturbingly low.

I took it on a 20 mile trip yesterday.  I let it sit 24 hours, and for good measure, put the headlights on for 30 seconds, then let the battery recover for 5 minutes.  Took direct readings from the battery with my Fluke multi-meter.

The reading was 12.32 volts.

One of those state-of-charge charts would call that only 70% charge.

I then started the truck and checked again and got a reading of 14.35 volts, so there is nothing wrong with the charging system.

The battery is the original Ford factory battery.  The build date on the truck was January 2012, so the battery is just about four years old.  It is, of course, sealed, so there is no way to check the cells with a hydrometer.

I put the question to the experts here:  should I dump this battery and get a new one before the cold weather comes in?  Or is this more or less normal for a four year old battery?

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
So as I mentioned in another post, I just bought a 2012 F250.  It starts fine - in our current warm weather.  There was no voltmeter in the dashboard, only an idiot light, so I bought one of those digital voltmeters that plugs in to a cigarette lighter socket.  The readings on that were disturbingly low.

I took it on a 20 mile trip yesterday.  I let it sit 24 hours, and for good measure, put the headlights on for 30 seconds, then let the battery recover for 5 minutes.  Took direct readings from the battery with my Fluke multi-meter.

The reading was 12.32 volts.

One of those state-of-charge charts would call that only 70% charge.

I then started the truck and checked again and got a reading of 14.35 volts, so there is nothing wrong with the charging system.

The battery is the original Ford factory battery.  The build date on the truck was January 2012, so the battery is just about four years old.  It is, of course, sealed, so there is no way to check the cells with a hydrometer.

I put the question to the experts here:  should I dump this battery and get a new one before the cold weather comes in?  Or is this more or less normal for a four year old battery?

Regards
John

Voltage alone is not a good indicator of battery health, especially if one does not know its state of charge to begin with.

Maintenance free flooded batteries are strange ducks too.  They have a lot higher percentage of calcium in the plates which helps reduce water usage.  They figure the battery will die before needing to be watered, and they are usually right.

Also maintenance free flooded batteries come to a dead stop, kind of like AGMS when fully charged, meaning they accept little amperage at absorption voltage when fully charged.  When Cycled deeper, maintenance free flooded should have an absorption voltage of 15v at 77f, and be held there until amps taper to nearly 0.1.

If your fluke records minimum voltage, put it on your battery and start your cold engine and see what the minimum voltage is.  If under 10.5 then consider replacing it.

My NorthstarAGM full charged does not drop below 12.0v cranking my cold engine, but my Flooded battery would drop to 10.7v when fully charged.

The starter is a mini load test, and with repeated starts and observations of a voltmeter, one can watch their battery age.
 
IIWM, I'd be replacing the battery BEFORE you get stuck somewhere, not WHEN you get stuck.

It's normal behavior for a 4 year old battery in a vehicle BUT you have no way of knowing how mistreated it was before you bought the van.

But then I consider being able to start the van EVERY time I want it to start of paramount importance. Just because I'm retired now doesn't mean that I don't want to go where I want to go, when I want to go there!!

Also, just because the build date on the truck was Jan 2012, doesn't mean that the battery was built in December. It could have been sitting for quite a bit longer than that before it was installed in the vehicle.
 
SternWake said:
If your fluke records minimum voltage, put it on your battery and start your cold engine and see what the minimum voltage is.  If under 10.5 then consider replacing it.


The starter is a mini load test, and with repeated starts and observations of a voltmeter, one can watch their battery age.

My Fluke doesn't record, but I can watch it while my brother starts the truck this weekend.  Thanks for the idea.

Regards
John
 
Once a starter battery goes dead, it will very soon fail again. Your old battery is not worth the time for any more troubleshooting. It is worth the core trade charges for a new battery. Get the best you can afford from a national brand so it is easy to replace if you have problems latter. Walmart is a good choice.
 
The battery in our f150 is over 10 years old and protest on colder mornings. I know it will need replacing but it keeps starting the truck. I know better than to let it get run down because at this point that would be a death sentence. The last battery I replace in one of the Expeditions was fine until the panic button got pushed, then the starter stuck and we needed a jump. Even after a 45 minute ride home it couldn't start the truck. Overnight on the charger did no better.

So it'll will be a cold morning when the battery will fail. The battery will be weak and just the attempt at starting the truck will take it too low. Luckily Walmart is just down the street.
 
you said you bought the truck but not when. Certainly that battery is not all that old but, if you bought the truck this year, then you have no idea if that battery has been abused.

Maybe something was left on once twice three times bringing the battery down, then recharged and they figure it's OK but the discharges can be really hard on it.

I know money doesn't grow on the trees but I'd replace it for piece of mind.

I bought a 2006 Chevy HHR and it was starting up and running just fine on the original battery, but when I had a chance to take a vent cap off and check it I saw plates not water!
There is a new battery in there now.
 
I just bought the truck, so I've no idea of it's history.  (It's got 40,000 miles and cosmetically it looks brand new, but that proves nothing re the battery.)

I'm curious to see what results I get running the starter test Stern suggested.  I plan to do that before I do anything else.

But my inclination is to just buy a new Odyssey AGM, since they are 20% off this month.  Honestly, just because I really want to.

But if the Ford battery checks out as reasonably good, we may repurpose it to one of our other, less critical family vehicles.

I'll let you all know what happens.

Regards
John
 
Today's vehicles start so easily, the starting battery has a very easy job, it really only runs into difficulty when discharged lower than 85% and the owner expects the alternator to top it off which it will never do unless driven for hundreds of miles as it takes time to fully charge any lead acid battery.  Even in this treatment it could be a good 2 years before it cannot start the engine.


A previous battery of mine spent 23 months being shallowly cycled but chronically undercharged, then was relegated to engine starting duties only, and it lasted another 5 years, and it was still quite capable of starting my engine.

But my engine cranks for a second or less before catching.  But disconnect the coil wire and crank for 3 seconds and it slowed considerably.

My friend has a yellowtop Optima battery from 1999 in an Astro DD.  The thing reads 10.6 volts, never any higher.  I told him it had a shorted cell about a year ago and to replace it before it strands him.  He pointed out it starts his engine just fine and he will replace it when it no longer can.   He never gets tired of pointing this out to me, and I point out that it simply has a shorted cell and can fail any time and to at least carry jumper cables, but he refuses. 

The point is that a starting battery, when it does fail to start the engine when the lights have not been left on overnight, is very seriously degraded.  For most it is just fine, until the day they hear the dreaded starter click.  There is no inbetween for such people.  One day just fine, then the next it is not and most all reports of starter battery longevity, good or bad, are by people with absolutely no Clue as to the health of their battery. One or Zero, and no shades of grey between the two.

A deep cycle/marine battery actually deeply cycled, that is similarly compromised, would be much more noticeable to the user with a simple voltmeter, but the starting battery has to seriously degrade, or be subjected to very cold temperatures before it reveals to the average user that its time is nearly done.

One can certainly wait until it is about ready to fail, but when it actually does fail is an unknown. My weak starting battery was never a concern, as i had a house bank that could always contribute enough CCA to get me going.  Right now I do not have a house bank, I have a single 90AH AGM for both house and engine starting duties.  I cycle it to 50% or more 4 to 5 nights a week.  It has no issue starting my engine even when depleted.
  I have no bad weather buffer, unless I just never use my laptop. 
I've gone full circle.  in the beginning I only had a 85AH starting battery.  I went upto 345AH of capacity at one point, and now am back down to 90AH, and never had more confidence in my system.

But back in the day, I simply had NO IDEA the state of charge of the battery, how much of it I was using, and how much I could use.  Now I do.

And I have multiple very capable charging sources and the ability to actually attain a 100% recharge which makes lead acid batteries so dang happy .

Maintenance free flooded starting batteries are strange ducks.
 They are marketed toward people who when asked when they last changed their oil reply:
 "Changed it to What?"

I have 2 digital voltmeters on my Dashboard.  One is disconnected as I only have one battery, but I can gauge the state of charge of my AGM battery by how low voltage falls when cranking my  cold engine.  Fully charged and it does not drop below 12.2v.  50% and it drops to 11v, 30% and it falls to 10.2v.

My flooded battery's numbers were much much lower, and it cranked the starter much slower too.

While voltage is not a great indicator of battery health or state of charge, it is a very useful tool for guessing at it.  One on the dashboard that actually says 12.7 or 14.3 is quite useful and informative. The stock ones which have an analog gauge with 11 on one side and 18v on the other, one cannot discern the difference between 12.8 and 13.6v, and this is the difference between a functioning charging system and one that is not, so many stock voltmeters are basically worthless.

I recommend people interested in their batteries put a digital voltmeter on their dash whose voltage sense lead is right on the battery terminal.
Get a 3 wire version, not a two wire version.

This one is able to be calibrated:
http://www.amazon.com/SMAKN®-Digita...28918&sr=8-24&keywords=3+wire+voltmeter+smakn

The 2 wire version does not have a separate voltage sense wire, so unless you wire it directly to the battery(+), it cannot read accurately.

The voltmeters one plugs into a ciggy lighter can read much different than one whose voltage sense lead is right on the battery terminal as there might be other loads on the circuit feeding the ciggy receptacle.

My only complaint with my dashboard voltmeters is they are only one decimal place, and are green, and too bright at night.  I put two layers of window 35% tint in front of them to tame them.
I have a red one to swap in. 

 They only come on with my ignition, and they seem to have a 3 to 4 times a second refresh rate, though I see a ~500Millisecond refresh rate listed on similar products.  Mine is definitely more than 2x a second.

Anyway a digital voltmeter right on the dashboard whose sense lead is right on the battery(+), will allow the driver to see when their starting battery is weakening to the point replacement is wise.  It also allows one to see the wacky behavior of their vehicle's voltage regulator, and if one has a voltmeter for their house battery, one can see the difference between depleted house battery and fully charged engine battery.   When the two voltmeters agree, usually the house bank is nearly fully charged, but this also depends on the size and length of the circuit.

While there is certainly bliss in ignorance, ignorance can come back and 5 finger prostate exam you.
 
I've said this somewhere else but I don't have a link, I would not recommend an AGM as a starting battery for a vehicle that was not designed for one. My Ford E-150 could not keep that battery fully charged and I had in my opinion a shorten life span. I also had two unexpected drain it dead events during it's time in the van and there again, pricey battery was killed prematurely.

I decided personally to go back to a FLA battery that was actually cheap. I can keep an on on water and hydro readings.

Mike
 
Funny this came up.I just returned the battery out of the van I bought to Walmart today.The sticker said 11/13 .It would still crank the van unless I left it sit for a week or more.They gave me a new one with no hassle.
 
MikeRuth said:
I've said this somewhere else but I don't have a link, I would not recommend an AGM as a starting battery for a vehicle that was not designed for one. My Ford E-150 could not keep that battery fully charged and I had in my opinion a shorten life span.

Well, Mike, if this were just a starter battery, I would say you are probably right.  However, I intend to build this into a dual use on and off road vehicle.  This will include an electric winch.  A good heavy winch can pull 200 to 300 amps while it's running.  This is more than the alternator can provide, so the battery must make up the difference.  FLA starter batteries don't do well in this situation, so it's fairly common for off-roaders to go with AGM batteries.  They last a lot longer under THAT kind of use abuse.

Regards
John
 
Well, I went out this morning to test my battery under starter load.  Hooked the multi-meter directly to the battery.  It was bouncing between 11.99 and 12.00 volts.  The truck has been sitting for a couple of days.  Clearly the battery voltage is lower than it was a few days ago.

When my brother turned the key, the meter dropped to 9.7 volts just before the engine started.  Repeated the test and saw 9.7 volts a second time.

Time for a new battery.

Thanks again, Stern, for the starter load test tip.

Regards
John
 
well if the battery started at 12.0 volts, it was nowhere near fully charged and dropping to 9.7v from that state is not unexpected.

The bigger issue is why the battery lost so much voltage in a few days of sitting. Either it is self discharging at an extreme rate, or you read surface charge the last time you checked, or there is a parasitic load on the battery. If you are not afraid to lose any radio stations and disconnecting the battery is no big deal, put the DMM inline on the battery cable and measure parasitic current.

If you had taken it hot off the charger, and measured only 9.7v when engine starting, only then would I condemn it. CCA ratings are determined by the battery's ability to maintain at least 7.5 volts for 30 seconds of engine cranking, at 32f

But you just want to buy that Odyssey 2250/group31 at 100AH and 1150 CCA. I completely understand.

The speed with which these high$$ thin plate pure lead AGMS can crank a large motor is impressive indeed. My single Northstar group27 at 930CCA spins my starter faster than 2 group27 flooded marine batteries in parallel for ~1300CCA could.

I'd really recommend anybody reading to avoid maintenance free flooded batteries.. I know a lot of newer vehicles are sold with them, that does not mean they need to be replaced with one however
 
Those batteries are on sale all month.  If I've got a parasitic draw, I want to find it first.  Thanks for pointing that out.

BTW, I've got a Fluke i410 clamp accessory.  Would that be sensitive enough to find a parasitic draw without disconnecting the battery?

Regards
John
 
I do not know about the fluke. I suspect so. My Sears clamp on meter was able to accurately read a 0.08amps load from a T-10 base LED bulb
 
All this trouble shooting on a 5 year old battery that has been overly discharged is a waste of time. Get a new battery and clean cable ends. Then test all of your circuits. Pay special attention to losses through connections. SW many posts will give you the techniques to test things. But get a new battery.
 
ccbreder said:
All this trouble shooting on a 5 year old battery that has been overly discharged is a waste of time. Get a new battery and clean cable ends. Then test all of your circuits. Pay special attention to losses through connections. SW many posts will give you the techniques to test things. But get a new battery.

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong.  But I've got all month to take advantage of the Odyssey battery sale.  And rather than viewing this as a waste of time, I view it as a learning opportunity.  Besides, I like to KNOW what's going on, and I've never believed in solving problems by throwing money at them and hoping I guessed right.

I'm almost certainly going to wind up getting the new battery.  But if I can establish the old one is still good, we'll probably use it in one of our tractors or something.

Thanks.

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong.  But I've got all month to take advantage of the Odyssey battery sale.  And rather than viewing this as a waste of time, I view it as a learning opportunity.  Besides, I like to KNOW what's going on, and I've never believed in solving problems by throwing money at them and hoping I guessed right.

I'm almost certainly going to wind up getting the new battery.  But if I can establish the old one is still good, we'll probably use it in one of our tractors or something.

Thanks.

Regards
John

You would probably make a great vehicle diagnostician with your desire to know what is going on and not throw parts at it and hope for the best.   I have been fortunate enough to have had the formal diagnostic training and it is pretty cool.

I have looked for the Odyssey battery sale online and don't seem to be able to find the info.  Could you please let me know how I might take advantage of the sale?
 
29chico said:
You would probably make a great vehicle diagnostician with your desire to know what is going on and not throw parts at it and hope for the best.   I have been fortunate enough to have had the formal diagnostic training and it is pretty cool.

I have looked for the Odyssey battery sale online and don't seem to be able to find the info.  Could you please let me know how I might take advantage of the sale?

Their website isn't really all that well designed, so it isn't obvious.  Go to:

http://shop.odysseybattery.com/c/batteries?pp=12

Pick Auto/Truck or Marine

If you go for Auto/Truck, you'll have to choose Extreme Series or Performance Series.

Every battery that comes up will show the regular price and the sale price.  Pick a battery and it will come up with the option to add it to cart

BTW, the Marine batteries seem to be heavier and have more amp-hours that the Auto/Truck batteries


Regards
John
 

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