Interesting Articles Relating to EVs

[RonDean]

Yes, you were defending Tesla. Also, I'm sure government entities fine IC manufacturers, too. Here is what you said:

The counties accused Tesla of violating state unfair business and hazardous waste management laws by improperly labeling waste and sending the materials to landfills that cannot accept hazardous material. The district attorneys' statements said Tesla cooperated with the investigation and acted to improve compliance with laws that were brought to its attention by the prosecutors. The settlement includes $1.3 million in civil penalties, $200,000 to cover the costs of the investigation, training of employees, and third-party waste audits... The "Waste produced or handled at the facilities includes paint materials, brake fluids, used batteries, antifreeze, and diesel fuel, the counties said."

I would point out that any of those could have as easily, or more so, been produced by many IC-related companies. I DO NOT see anything that shows there was a procedural or policy failure by Tesla rather than an employee screwup.

I just reread the above and do not see where I defended Tesla's violation nor did I see any explanation of exactly what individuals were responsible. Tesla was fined and they both cooperated and paid the fine. I'm totally OK with that. I might object to certain biased reporting though.

This thread was about EVs and not just Tesla. I believe I was putting the story in context. How about anyone on the ICV side agreeing that they should ALSO be fined for the environmental harm they are causing?

 

[Happy Camper]

 

[user 22017]

This thread was about EVs and not just Tesla. I believe I was putting the story in context. How about anyone on the ICV side agreeing that they should ALSO be fined for the environmental harm they are causing?

Of course and they are fined. Wasn't Volkswagen fined the largest amount ever or something like that? For tampering with ... something to do with emissions?

 

[Gr8ful]

The Environmental Impact of Battery Production for Electric Vehicles​

Whole life tonnes of CO2e for EVs=8.8, Gas Cars=5.6, 3.2 less than electric cars per Earth.org! WOW
https://earth.org/environmental-imp...l environmental cost of,only' account for 26%.

 

[Happy Camper]

Interesting article here.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/03/study-says-the-greenest-car-isnt-an-ev-but-the-next-four-are/

 

[RonDean]

Of course and they are fined. Wasn't Volkswagen fined the largest amount ever or something like that? For tampering with ... something to do with emissions?

Yes, VW was fined for hiding their true emissions, as I recall.

But I was talking about the Environmental Damage coming from ICV tailpipes that we seem to forget about or just accept. I think if we stepped back and looked at the big picture it might look slightly different.

1. We have one EV manufacturer that was caught disposing of waste improperly. They were fined and have taken steps to make sure it does not happen again. But the vehicles they produce do NOT pump pollution from tailpipes. Therefore, even after their transgression, do less harm to the environment than all the other manufacturers.

2. The vast majority of vehicles on the road are IC and DO pump pollution into the environment with every mile they travel. Given the number of miles they all travel and the number of IC cars and trucks on the road - that's a lot of pollution. EIA estimates that in 2022, U.S. motor gasoline and diesel (distillate) fuel consumption in the U.S. transportation sector resulted in the emission of about 1,023 million metric tons (MMmt) of carbon dioxide (CO2) and 464 MMmt of CO2, respectively, for a total of about 1,488 MMmt of CO2. The Feds are trying to make them limit such pollution but until someone like VW gets caught lying about it, we don't fine them.

 

[wayne49]

Of course and they are fined. Wasn't Volkswagen fined the largest amount ever or something like that? For tampering with ... something to do with emissions?

VW programmed the engine computer to detect when the vehicle was running an emissions test, then the computer would go into a very low emissions test mode, which would not be performing near normal driving mode on the road.

I viewed it as the test procedures were no where near normal driving, as they should have been. Emissions testing is never like normal driving, standing still, revving the engine with no load. Being a systems developer, it didn't take much thought to figure out what they were doing.

In Michigan, if a vehicle failed, they [emissions testing was/is done by private businesses] would have the driver drive around, then bring it right back into the test area, and it would usually pass. When the vehicle is shutdown, waiting in line, the engine cools down too much, and that can screw up the first test run. The vehicle owner/driver is their customer, not the Michigan DMV.

 

[Gr8ful]

Michigan DMV doesn't require emission testing & I've owned cars since 1975.

 

[Gr8ful]

Electric vehicles have almost 80% more problems than gas-powered ones, Consumer Reports says!​

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electr...ntly reported,and interior parts fit together.​

 

[user 22017]

Some excerpts from the Consumer Reports link:

Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) have an even worse scorecard, with an average of almost 150% more problems, the consumer group found. By contrast, ordinary hybrid cars are a "bright spot," with about a quarter fewer problems than gas-powered cars, the analysis found.

"This story is really one of growing pains," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. "It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology."

The five lowest-ranking brands were Jeep, Volkswagen, Rivian, Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler.

 

[RonDean]

Some excerpts from the Consumer Reports link:

Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) have an even worse scorecard, with an average of almost 150% more problems, the consumer group found. By contrast, ordinary hybrid cars are a "bright spot," with about a quarter fewer problems than gas-powered cars, the analysis found.

"This story is really one of growing pains," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. "It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology."

The five lowest-ranking brands were Jeep, Volkswagen, Rivian, Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler.

We were talking Env Damage and now it has become hybrid and EV mech problems. Seems like some"moving the goalposts" to me.

But, OK. Since hybrids have BOTH IC and Elec, I would expect them to have a combination of both vehicle's problems. So, no surprise there. And, as "Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. (said) "It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology." I can see that too.

On the other hand, EVs don't require all the gas and oil-related servicing ICVs do. A U.S. Department of Energy report from June 2021 explains that the estimated scheduled maintenance cost of a light-duty battery-electric vehicle is less than $. 07 per mile. Meanwhile, a conventional internal combustion engine costs approximately $. 10 per mile to maintain. That can add up too.

I know some folks like to measure everything in dollars and cents. I sometimes do that too. But on this subject, there is also global warming and human health which is more of a long-term cost and one that I think many are not considering. How do we factor in those costs?

 

[Happy Camper]

Yeah they are still working on optimizing the plug in hybrids. Regular hybrid have been around for plenty of time so they are generally easier to design. Both sides of the drivetrain get less wear.

Adding a larger battery that you can charge externally isn't as similar as you'd think. It changes a lot of systems and parameters. They should have it nailed down in a year or two.

 

[Happy Camper]

This isn't a climate crisis thread. It's just an EV thread. Hence the title of the thread.

Interesting Articles Relating to EVs

Just putting it out there. EV is another way to move things. Like any other vehicle. If you buy one for the climate, or get one for other reasons that's up to you. And your choice. Just like I eat meat. And others I know don't. We all have our personal preferences.

How about we get back to the interesting part of the thread title.

 

[RonDean]

This isn't a climate crisis thread. It's just an EV thread. Hence the title of the thread.

Interesting Articles Relating to EVs

Just putting it out there. EV is another way to move things. Like any other vehicle. If you buy one for the climate, or get one for other reasons that's up to you. And your choice. Just like I eat meat. And others I know don't. We all have our personal preferences.

How about we get back to the interesting part of the thread title.

Happy, I can't argue with that.
However, if some of us want or like EVs for environmental or climate reasons, that is certainly as interesting to talk about as maintenance costs and problems.

 

[Gr8ful]

As I've said all along EVs aren't ready yet especially the battery's & charging. They may or may not win out as when cars started Evs, IC & steam all competed. IC won & saved much of the environment as gasoline was a by-product of lamp oil & was being dumped in rivers & on the ground. I still think it will be 10+ years before EVs & buyers are ready in the U.S. as we don't have mass transit in rural areas & we have cold weather & travel long distances. Also why aren't the chargers on the car as each car needs one?

 

[RonDean]

My opinion is that in this country, companies produce products to make money. Period. If Henry Ford had been a successful buggy maker he probably would have never made the cars he did. If the Wright brothers had made more money making bikes, we would have had to wait for someone else to fly first. As long as the car makers can continue to make money and are not charged for the damage the cars may do, they have no incentive to change - unless made to by the governments that are supposed to be looking out for our best interests. Thus we have the regulations that Tesla and VW violated. That does not mean the technology to produce practical EVs does not exist. Although I am sure what we have can be improved. Ever watched the movie: Who Killed The Electric Car? It's an interesting watch.

On another subject, I wonder why gas stations have to provide pumps. If every car carried around a pump, the gas stations could get by with just a tank or open pit to hold the gas. Of course, the cars would be carrying around a pump they only need occasionally, it would increase the cost of the car, and the stations would have a difficult time figuring out how much was pumped and how much to charge. But still... just thinking out loud.

 

[Gr8ful]

On another subject, I wonder why gas stations have to provide pumps. If every car carried around a pump, the gas stations could get by with just a tank or open pit to hold the gas. Of course, the cars would be carrying around a pump they only need occasionally, it would increase the cost of the car, and the stations would have a difficult time figuring out how much was pumped and how much to charge. But still... just thinking out loud.

Happy I'm SORRY this doesn't fit your thread as not an article but I needed to correct the above. SORRY!

Ron, IMHO, It wouldn't increase the cost of the car as all EVs need a charging station at home. with one on the car you'd just need a 240 Volt outlet like many home garages do anyway. Towns, cities & businesses could add 240V metered outlets so you could charge your EV while shopping, dining, getting a haircut, seeing a show or movie or any other reason your away from home. Much better than the fiasco we all saw this winter with waiting hours or days in the cold to get a charge. A simple metered 240V outlet like a welder, range or water heater uses. People didn't have gasoline piped to their house or business when petrol cars came out but unless you're Amish almost everyone in America has electric already. Better yet have a charge meter on the car & when you visit a friend or family for the day plug in & pay them for what you used. It would go a long way to fix EVs biggest issue of short range without building huge heavy batteries which pollute like crazy & the PIA charging stations. I see some makers are putting solar panels on the top, trunk & hood, another good idea. As far as when petrol cars came our many farms still have elevated tanks or tanks in their trucks or on trailers to fuel equipment.

[mod edit: minor edit and reinstated at request of author--tx2]

 

[user 22017]

Happy I'm SORRY this doesn't fit your thread as not an article but I needed to correct the above. SORRY!

Ron, IMHO, It wouldn't increase the cost of the car as all EVs need a charging station at home. with one on the car you'd just need a 240 Volt outlet like many home garages do anyway. Towns, cities & businesses could add 240V metered outlets so you could charge your EV while shopping, dining, getting a haircut, seeing a show or movie or any other reason your away from home. Much better than the fiasco we all saw this winter with waiting hours or days in the cold to get a charge. ...

He's talking about gas pumps, silly.

[mod edit: minor edit in quoted post corrected here also--tx2]

 

[tx2sturgis]

I believe RonDean was using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point.

Two posts referring to it were removed due to content.




[mod edit: those two posts have been reinstated after a very minor edit for content --tx2]

 

[Happy Camper]

Another interesting article.

https://nypost.com/2024/03/05/busin...missions-are-worse-for-the-environment-study/