travelaround
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Then what is your suggestion for a solution? That is what I want to know.
Interesting article on homeless in their vehicles
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geogentry
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A lot of things have been tried. The reason these people congregate into the cities is that's where the shelters are, the soup kitchens, the dumpsters they search for possessions and food, and the populace where they Panhandle.
Prior changes in the laws and Healthcare have placed many people who are not mentally competent to care for themselves on the streets. There are the many young who have run away from intolerable homelife. Addicts of one kind or another are also on the streets.
I don't have a solution to cure all the homeless. I don't know that there is a solution. Incarceration just will not work. There's neither the facilities nor the money to follow that path. I suspect that is why it is not being done.
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Prior changes in the laws and Healthcare have placed many people who are not mentally competent to care for themselves on the streets. There are the many young who have run away from intolerable homelife. Addicts of one kind or another are also on the streets.
I don't have a solution to cure all the homeless. I don't know that there is a solution. Incarceration just will not work. There's neither the facilities nor the money to follow that path. I suspect that is why it is not being done.
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"Homelessness" is a symptom of a problem that I doubt gets solved here. The problem of the "Competitive More for Me Society". Western/European way of living has spread like a virus. All in the name of Progress, attempting to conquer and dominate everything/everyone, including Nature, in its path...all for a profit or to push an agenda.
My answer, be mindfully kind and compassionate to everyone you meet, including yourself.
My answer, be mindfully kind and compassionate to everyone you meet, including yourself.
geogentry
Well-known member
MaTaLa -
Interestingly enough estimates place the homeless in Russia at 10 times the amount in the United States.
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Interestingly enough estimates place the homeless in Russia at 10 times the amount in the United States.
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@geogentry
Unless I'm mistaken capitalism is rampant in Russia, since the breakup of the USSR, with even less regulation of the greed than here. As least here attorneys do it with a pen, there they do it by coercion by any means, lol.
I guess I'm saying that, historically, once a country became Westernized simple ways of life were/are eradicated, it seems to me.
Unless I'm mistaken capitalism is rampant in Russia, since the breakup of the USSR, with even less regulation of the greed than here. As least here attorneys do it with a pen, there they do it by coercion by any means, lol.
I guess I'm saying that, historically, once a country became Westernized simple ways of life were/are eradicated, it seems to me.
Satellite5812
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MaTaLa said:
I agree. I think the only thing that could end homelessness is to fund more healthcare programs/shelters for the mentally ill and addicted, more training/shelters for homeless youth, and a UBI, so no one loses their footing because of hard times or unexpected emergencies. Unfortunately, society is headed in the opposite direction because of greed.
It sickens me that the same greedy bastards who vote away such public services then complain about the "eyesore" of homeless camps that result. While cities are spending money to make sure the homeless have nowhere to sleep (big rocks or fencing under bridges, "armrests" in the middle of park benches) instead of using that money towards real solutions.
Ticklebellly
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travelaround said:
I figure those sleeping on the sidewalk are city residents using the sidewalk, as they have a right to do.
Seems some are more interested in the cosmetic appearance of the streetscape than the people who, often, have nowhere else to go or be.
travelaround
Well-known member
I care about both... the city's cleanliness, and the health of the people.
travelaround
Well-known member
San Francisco Has a Homeless Problem
https://www.city-journal.org/san-francisco-homeless-problem
From the article:
"The “streets are so filthy,” National Public Radio reports, “that at least one infectious disease expert has compared the city to some of the dirtiest slums in the world.” A resident living in the South of Market neighborhood has documented an increase in Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. A year ago, the local NBC affiliate surveyed 153 blocks in downtown San Francisco over three days and found that while “some streets were littered with items as small as a candy wrapper, the vast majority of trash found included large heaps of garbage, food, and discarded junk,” as well as “100 drug needles and more than 300 piles of feces throughout downtown.”
Do you really think I'm wrong to think this should be cleaned up and people given a place to live off the city streets?
This was not an issue in SF in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties - and now people are starting to think that homeless encampments on city streets are normal. I don't think that's normal. I think that's shocking.
https://www.city-journal.org/san-francisco-homeless-problem
From the article:
"The “streets are so filthy,” National Public Radio reports, “that at least one infectious disease expert has compared the city to some of the dirtiest slums in the world.” A resident living in the South of Market neighborhood has documented an increase in Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. A year ago, the local NBC affiliate surveyed 153 blocks in downtown San Francisco over three days and found that while “some streets were littered with items as small as a candy wrapper, the vast majority of trash found included large heaps of garbage, food, and discarded junk,” as well as “100 drug needles and more than 300 piles of feces throughout downtown.”
Do you really think I'm wrong to think this should be cleaned up and people given a place to live off the city streets?
This was not an issue in SF in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties - and now people are starting to think that homeless encampments on city streets are normal. I don't think that's normal. I think that's shocking.
"This was not an issue in SF in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties - and now people are starting to think that homeless encampments on city streets are normal. I don't think that's normal. I think that's shocking."
Could it be that during those years the city government didn't allow homeless to sleep on the streets? The police must have harassed/arrested 'vagrants' or run them off the streets. What attracts the homeless to San Francisco? They must be attracted to the big city atmosphere with better opportunities for survival. There are homeless in Denton, Texas. I see them around the old courthouse square sitting on the sidewalks during the day. But, not many and they don't hang around long. Probably bored. In the little Texas community I live in the homeless are just passing through, collecting money at the entrance to Walmart. It's flyover country
and it's just a stop on the way to better places.
Could it be that during those years the city government didn't allow homeless to sleep on the streets? The police must have harassed/arrested 'vagrants' or run them off the streets. What attracts the homeless to San Francisco? They must be attracted to the big city atmosphere with better opportunities for survival. There are homeless in Denton, Texas. I see them around the old courthouse square sitting on the sidewalks during the day. But, not many and they don't hang around long. Probably bored. In the little Texas community I live in the homeless are just passing through, collecting money at the entrance to Walmart. It's flyover country
and it's just a stop on the way to better places.
geogentry
Well-known member
@travelaround
I for one do not doubt you are honestly concerned about the streets of that City and of the people on the streets.
I believe the problem lies with Society. Society has become inured to the plight of those displaced individuals that are labeled homeless.
It is not uncommon to see the citizens of a city walk by the homeless, who find themselves on the streets, as though they were invisible. They don't wish to be bothered as they march on there errand of some unknown task with their $5 cup of Starbuck coffee. Many who do seek meaningful help are thwarted by the bureaucracy that they run up against. In many cities to receive Aid of any significance you must prove you are a resident of that City.
I have seen agencies that attempt to provide simple necessities to the homeless have their budgets slashed because the residents of that area have complained to the city about the number of homeless that go to that building, until they are no longer able to help.
Society is most certainly aware of these people. One day out of the year they march forward from the comfort of their home to deliver clothing and blankets. One day out of the year they go forth to feed the homeless a holiday meal. But what of the other 363 days?
There's an idiom that I learned a long time ago and try to keep foremost in my mind. Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes.
Until Society stops trying to pass off the responsibility, and the cure, for these conditions to some faceless government agency they will continue. And I suspect worsen as the number a people displaced by the greed of the few continue to grow.
Mother Teresa was once asked about feeding the hungry and the homeless. Her reply was that we grow enough food in this country to feed everyone very well. We just have not learned how to share it. That is a prime example of exactly what is wrong.
I don't have solution to cure this problem. Because I don't know how to wake Society up enough that they will do something about it rather than have someone else take care of it for them.
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I for one do not doubt you are honestly concerned about the streets of that City and of the people on the streets.
I believe the problem lies with Society. Society has become inured to the plight of those displaced individuals that are labeled homeless.
It is not uncommon to see the citizens of a city walk by the homeless, who find themselves on the streets, as though they were invisible. They don't wish to be bothered as they march on there errand of some unknown task with their $5 cup of Starbuck coffee. Many who do seek meaningful help are thwarted by the bureaucracy that they run up against. In many cities to receive Aid of any significance you must prove you are a resident of that City.
I have seen agencies that attempt to provide simple necessities to the homeless have their budgets slashed because the residents of that area have complained to the city about the number of homeless that go to that building, until they are no longer able to help.
Society is most certainly aware of these people. One day out of the year they march forward from the comfort of their home to deliver clothing and blankets. One day out of the year they go forth to feed the homeless a holiday meal. But what of the other 363 days?
There's an idiom that I learned a long time ago and try to keep foremost in my mind. Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes.
Until Society stops trying to pass off the responsibility, and the cure, for these conditions to some faceless government agency they will continue. And I suspect worsen as the number a people displaced by the greed of the few continue to grow.
Mother Teresa was once asked about feeding the hungry and the homeless. Her reply was that we grow enough food in this country to feed everyone very well. We just have not learned how to share it. That is a prime example of exactly what is wrong.
I don't have solution to cure this problem. Because I don't know how to wake Society up enough that they will do something about it rather than have someone else take care of it for them.
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travelaround
Well-known member
It isn't an easy situation to solve... but here's one city that is trying... San Diego.
Just saw this news article this morning.
San Diego homelessness level drops on costly clean-up effort, mayor says
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/san-diego-homeless-count-down-on-costly-clean-up-effort
Very encouraging!
I do think it would be better to have private apartments for homeless people, but the beds are a good start, and the storage locker facility is something I hadn't thought of. I'm glad to see a city is doing something about this rather than just relying on church sponsored shelters and soup kitchens.
Just saw this news article this morning.
San Diego homelessness level drops on costly clean-up effort, mayor says
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/san-diego-homeless-count-down-on-costly-clean-up-effort
Very encouraging!
I do think it would be better to have private apartments for homeless people, but the beds are a good start, and the storage locker facility is something I hadn't thought of. I'm glad to see a city is doing something about this rather than just relying on church sponsored shelters and soup kitchens.
The "cure" to being homeless is to find a way for each individual to be able to be secure in knowing they will have the basic needs of life. What is required to do that is different for each person. Society, it seems to me, is what influences most people to alter their perceptions and change their beliefs of what are the "basic needs of life" as opposed to reality. The majority of the society in this country has placed it's values on material wealth rather than every person's health and personal improvement. I believe this site is an attempt to help change those values on an individual basis as well as help those that this society has decided they can not afford to help. I hope Bob Wells created it so that many people would come here by choice rather than desperation but that both could be served.
WalkaboutTed
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I take deep interest in this subject, due to personal experience. As a working mom, I was homeless more than once and very close to homelessness multiple times. There were no drugs or alcohol involved, just rent raised, child support not paid, too expensive or the lack of childcare, enrolled in nursing school full time, or not enough working hours available. And I love the "If you can't afford them, don't have children" comments. I could afford the kids when they were born, but circumstances changed later due to factors beyond my control.
Many homeless are on the street, in tents, in vehicles or doubling up with family members and others for multiple reasons. At my worst, I was in a low rent, extended stay motel, but I was a hairsbreath from living in a tent. I consider myself lucky that I never had to live on the sidewalk. I got out of those situations by luck and hard work. The luck part is what many homeless folk have never gotten.
It's easy to demonize the homeless and issue blanket statements like "get them off the sidewalks" or "force them into shelters", "put 'em in jail, a work (concentration) camp or the poorhouse (though those no longer exist)" or "run them out of town". It's easy enough to be intolerant of the poor. I was on food stamps and Medicaid and WIC for about a year and the withering glances and rude treatment from strangers who had no knowledge of my situation were discouraging and hurt a lot. But regardless of what punishments the non-homeless want to impose, we have this pesky little impediment called the "Bill of Rights". We've managed to suspend that in multiple cases with American Indians, the Japanese during WW2 and now the current camp situation on the Southern border. We can't do that to the homeless-yet. God bless the ACLU!
Given the fact that the powers that be, of all political persuasions, are not willing fix the growing income inequality, the shrinking affordable housing stocks, a pitiful social service net, enough drug and alcohol treatment facilities and a myriad of other factors, the homeless situation is going to get worse. Did you realize that once a person is evicted from housing for any reason, almost universally, they will not be be able to rent again for seven years until it's off their credit record? And once someone has a criminal record, they will often never be able to get into any Fair Housing units-forever? Let's criminalize homelessness even more!
As far as the large percentage of the homeless addicted to drugs or alcohol? If I were living that way, I think I would want to be impaired enough to be able to tolerate the hopeless conditions on the streets. If you didn't have chemical impairments to start with, it will occur, given enough time on the streets. And the "Get a job!" prescription? Good luck with that when your clothes are dirty, you smell from no showers and you can't provide any address to a potential employer. Who wants to go to a shelter with crazies, the possibility of assault, bed bugs, scabies and poor treatment? Or, if you live in your car and you want safe parking, it only comes with the proviso that you go into the system and have to split up with your pets, significant other, your kids? Or if you go into a shelter, there's a good chance that you will have to give up your few possessions or even your car. No, the system is there to break the participants.
Many people refuse to consider even providing bathroom or handwashing facilities under the belief "if you provide services, like feeding pidgeons, more homeless will come for the luxurious services the homeless receive". Maybe when, that in addition to Hep A, TB, typhus, bed bugs, scabies, rat infestations, that when the Plague starts happening outside the homeless community, the idea of fixing at least part of this dysfunctional system might be considered. Most Americans are only a few missed paychecks away from homelessness. But rather than contemplating that, refusing to think of that possibility and looking down at the homeless is a better solution.
But I think that it's likely the suspension of the civil rights for the homeless will happen before meaningful change will occur. God forbid that we have UBI (Universal Basic Income) or Housing First should be adopted. Bootstraps only!
Ted
Many homeless are on the street, in tents, in vehicles or doubling up with family members and others for multiple reasons. At my worst, I was in a low rent, extended stay motel, but I was a hairsbreath from living in a tent. I consider myself lucky that I never had to live on the sidewalk. I got out of those situations by luck and hard work. The luck part is what many homeless folk have never gotten.
It's easy to demonize the homeless and issue blanket statements like "get them off the sidewalks" or "force them into shelters", "put 'em in jail, a work (concentration) camp or the poorhouse (though those no longer exist)" or "run them out of town". It's easy enough to be intolerant of the poor. I was on food stamps and Medicaid and WIC for about a year and the withering glances and rude treatment from strangers who had no knowledge of my situation were discouraging and hurt a lot. But regardless of what punishments the non-homeless want to impose, we have this pesky little impediment called the "Bill of Rights". We've managed to suspend that in multiple cases with American Indians, the Japanese during WW2 and now the current camp situation on the Southern border. We can't do that to the homeless-yet. God bless the ACLU!
Given the fact that the powers that be, of all political persuasions, are not willing fix the growing income inequality, the shrinking affordable housing stocks, a pitiful social service net, enough drug and alcohol treatment facilities and a myriad of other factors, the homeless situation is going to get worse. Did you realize that once a person is evicted from housing for any reason, almost universally, they will not be be able to rent again for seven years until it's off their credit record? And once someone has a criminal record, they will often never be able to get into any Fair Housing units-forever? Let's criminalize homelessness even more!
As far as the large percentage of the homeless addicted to drugs or alcohol? If I were living that way, I think I would want to be impaired enough to be able to tolerate the hopeless conditions on the streets. If you didn't have chemical impairments to start with, it will occur, given enough time on the streets. And the "Get a job!" prescription? Good luck with that when your clothes are dirty, you smell from no showers and you can't provide any address to a potential employer. Who wants to go to a shelter with crazies, the possibility of assault, bed bugs, scabies and poor treatment? Or, if you live in your car and you want safe parking, it only comes with the proviso that you go into the system and have to split up with your pets, significant other, your kids? Or if you go into a shelter, there's a good chance that you will have to give up your few possessions or even your car. No, the system is there to break the participants.
Many people refuse to consider even providing bathroom or handwashing facilities under the belief "if you provide services, like feeding pidgeons, more homeless will come for the luxurious services the homeless receive". Maybe when, that in addition to Hep A, TB, typhus, bed bugs, scabies, rat infestations, that when the Plague starts happening outside the homeless community, the idea of fixing at least part of this dysfunctional system might be considered. Most Americans are only a few missed paychecks away from homelessness. But rather than contemplating that, refusing to think of that possibility and looking down at the homeless is a better solution.
But I think that it's likely the suspension of the civil rights for the homeless will happen before meaningful change will occur. God forbid that we have UBI (Universal Basic Income) or Housing First should be adopted. Bootstraps only!
Ted
RoamerRV428
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great throughtful posts on the board!!
a lot of 'those considered homeless' we see on the streets do have families with available homes and personal finances that want to help them but the person refuses help for whatever reason. It isn't just build a home and they will come, many won't. If family members can't get their own blood off the street for whatever reasons as hard as they try.....then....
a lot of 'those considered homeless' we see on the streets do have families with available homes and personal finances that want to help them but the person refuses help for whatever reason. It isn't just build a home and they will come, many won't. If family members can't get their own blood off the street for whatever reasons as hard as they try.....then....
Satellite5812
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WalkaboutTed said:
*shudders* I'm afraid you might be right. I can almost see the homeless concentration camp on the horizon. Certainly seems we're heading that direction.
Even finding good places to park has gotten more difficult. Just comparing my west coast route between this year and last year, there are already far fewer places that allow overnight parking. And I got told to "move along" by the cops a handful of times.. that had never happened before, ever!
travelaround
Well-known member
@Walkabout Ted... I've also been homeless or close to it several times in my life... the last time was when I moved to Idaho in 2013. I came within one day of being homeless on the street with no car to sleep in... but that very day, got approval to move into the subsidized senior apartments I now still live in. I've lived in the past in a tent in the Oakland Hills, or sleeping on the ground near a lake outside Fresno. That is part of why I also feel strongly about solutions to help end homelessness... which in a prosperous country like the United States shouldn't be happening.
You brought up something I've been keeping back and that is the epidemic of bed bugs and scabies in homeless shelters... something I didn't know about until a few years ago when a homeless friend of mine got scabies from a homeless shelter. This explains part of why a lot of people want nothing to do with living in or using those shelters and why I think they need private apartments or tiny homes of their own.
You brought up something I've been keeping back and that is the epidemic of bed bugs and scabies in homeless shelters... something I didn't know about until a few years ago when a homeless friend of mine got scabies from a homeless shelter. This explains part of why a lot of people want nothing to do with living in or using those shelters and why I think they need private apartments or tiny homes of their own.
geogentry
Well-known member
While relocating recently I happened to listen to a segment on NPR. They were interviewing a doctor based in Los Angeles. And he said that last year he saw several cases of bubonic plague and he expects to see a great many this year. I found it kind of hard to believe that the Black Death has returned. But then camping in a few places in California I've come across posters warning that the small wild animals are carriers of the plague and caution should be used.
It's obvious what will happen if there's any kind of major outbreak of the plague in any major city. The homeless will immediately get blamed and that is when they may become residence of a camp. Homeless problem solved in the major cities
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It's obvious what will happen if there's any kind of major outbreak of the plague in any major city. The homeless will immediately get blamed and that is when they may become residence of a camp. Homeless problem solved in the major cities
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wandering_artist
Member
txmnjim said:
My take on the article was that it was dealing with the involuntary need to live in a vehicle. I think that to integrate both sides of the coin (i.e. our choice to live in an RV, van, car, etc., vs a family losing everything and having to live in any kind of vehicle) into one article would take away from the very seriousness of the issues of homelessness and lack of housing for mid-to-low income people in this country. I think the people the author was referring to in the article, for the most part, do want a permanent roof over their heads (aside from the brief mention about those who chose this life.)
What I think could have been added to the article is a brief mention that those who chose this life are not homeless, our homes just happen to have wheels.
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