Hurray for insulation

[SoulRaven]

Newbie here. I am just starting to convert my cargo van to dwell in for the next 4-5 months most likely. Looking at the avg. temperatures I am going to have to deal with in the No. California area: http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCA0987

Was thinking something like this: http://erowe3.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/my-van-start-to-finish-6310/ (same model van as what I have!)

Fortunately the climate is very nice here. I was going to start on insulation this weekend. It's still pretty warm out now and will be for the next month at least. I was under the impression that the insulation would be useful vs. the heat as well.

Unfortunately, in a cargo van, you are pretty much stuck doing a very expensive and time consuming insulation job, because unlike most window vans they are not move in ready.

Your goal should be to cover & insulate every single spot of bare metal in the back of the van. That bare metal will conduct the heat/cold miserably, and also create huge condensation problems.

If you are going to follow up with paneling, try to get something that is moisture proof, as this will save you a lot of frustration in the future.

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I agree on the insulation concepts of thermal mass and since my wife and i camp in the Pacific Northwest where cold is the issue (we've only had a handful of days in the mid 80's where we made camp) we went ahead and built the van accordingly. That meant good venting available rain/shine, and soft walls built up from multiple layers of non-moisture-absorbent insulators such as Reflectix/Bubble-wrap/Mylar. Over that we placed marine grade fabric hull liner. The differential is about 10 to 15 degrees warmer inside at night than outside, or interestingly, a measured 5 to 10 degrees cooler during the day. I don't really know the why or how but it makes for a comfortable place to bed down at night.

BUT, as stated, we went into this knowing we'd be camping in the PNW. If it had been in hot dry areas i would have done the research for those areas and gone forward accordingly.

One night in June up at the caldera lakes near Bend Oregon we went to bed noting the clouds rolling in. We woke up to about 4" of snow on the ground. We slept through the night with only our fleece blanket on top of us with windows cracked and MaxxFan open. Hadn't a clue it snowed until i opened the door to get out the next morning.

Thom

Those figures are quite close to my own, 20° warmer on cold nights, & 15° cooler on hot days (parked in the shade) than the outside temperatures in my stock window van. (No added insulation).

 

[riffraff]

Thanks Off-Grid. Reflectix looks pretty cheap. I'll at least do that where I can.

I've seen the idea of using fiberglass frowned apon in other advice. The link to that start-to-finish conversion spent a lot of time discussing the insulation procedure and they used fiberglass. It doesn't look hard from the pictures but having no tools or experience working with any of that stuff.. I'm sure it's going to be a challenge. Maybe I can con some Lowe's worker to help me out like they do in their commercials =)

 

[SoulRaven]

In my opinion, insulation is the best investment you can make when converting your van, because most of us live in an area where there is more cold than heat. Then you do need a source of heat, but the insulation will quickly pay for itself in savings in fuel.

The only time that you shouldn't have insulation (in My Humble Opinion) is if you live very far south and cold stops being an issue and heat is a big issue.
Bob

If you're starting with a cargo van, which personally I think is a poor choice, you really have no choice other than to insulate it, if you want any chance of making a comfortable living space.

That being said, having spent time in my stock window van at temps below -40&deg;, I doubt that any amount of insulation could have kept my heating bill below the $40/month range that I had. Under more normal conditions, the <$5 month that I spend on heating, would take a very long time to justify the cost of adding insulation.

I find it interesting that most ice fishing shacks & tents are uninsulated, but heated. Many Alaskan cabins are also uninsulated but heated, with no inside walls at all, only bare studs, and the outside walls. I can't help but to think that these people know something that we're missing.

The newest trend seems to be building ice fishing huts similar to a hoop house style of greenhouse, covered in clear plastic. They say they require minimal heat to keep them comfortable, both day and night. This tends to lead back to my original theory that if your structure keeps out the wind and the rain, then it is doing it's job. Other than that, Mother Nature will always be working to equalize the indoor & outdoor temperatures, and without a good source of heat, she will always win.

 

[Seeker]

It was probably 90 degrees today while working on my van. I had 2 of those Shumacher 120 AC to 12 DC converters (these http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-PC-6-120AC-Power-Converter/dp/B0012BL8LG ) running my roof vent fan and my endless breeze fan on high and I was quite comfortable.

If I could run my fans on battery at that speed I would not need air conditioning or insulation.

I stay in Florida a lot so I am still debating insulating or not.

 

[riffraff]

Not only does insulation slow down temperature changes, it also slows down sound waves. Thats another hurray for insulation.

for someone who snores and might be parked on the street... this is a nice bonus.

 

[SoulRaven]

Thanks Off-Grid. Reflectix looks pretty cheap. I'll at least do that where I can.

I've seen the idea of using fiberglass frowned apon in other advice. The link to that start-to-finish conversion spent a lot of time discussing the insulation procedure and they used fiberglass. It doesn't look hard from the pictures but having no tools or experience working with any of that stuff.. I'm sure it's going to be a challenge. Maybe I can con some Lowe's worker to help me out like they do in their commercials =)

I'm a big fan of plastic lumber, and FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic), because they are moisture proof, and moisture is your constant enemy while living in any sort of mobile residence. I am also a huge fan of PVC conduit instead of wood framing, for the same reason.

Helping a friend complete a camper van, we used absolutely no wood or paper products at all, trying to keep everything as moisture resistant as possible. We were lucky enough to stumble upon some honey oak woodgrain paneling made of that plastic cardboard material, at a flea market, for $3 per 4' x 8' sheet. We used that over the original headliner, and wall panels below his windows, to give his van a cozy cabin feeling. We then purchase 3 sets of plastic drawers to be placed side by side for his kitchen cabinets, and I added some of the same paneling for a facing to them, so everything matches. We will be adding a heavily varnished wood counter top over the drawers to create a very sturdy and heat resistant work space, so he can place his camp stove on top if desired. He will use a water jug with a spigot, placed on top, and use one of the top plastic drawers as his slide out sink.

I have had good luck at both Lowe's and Home Depot at having them cut & even drill different pieces for me at a very nominal cost. They have been very helpful, and can make your project so much easier.

 

[SoulRaven]

It was probably 90 degrees today while working on my van. I had 2 of those Shumacher 120 AC to 12 DC converters (these http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-PC-6-120AC-Power-Converter/dp/B0012BL8LG ) running my roof vent fan and my endless breeze fan on high and I was quite comfortable.

If I could run my fans on battery at that speed I would not need air conditioning or insulation.

I stay in Florida a lot so I am still debating insulating or not.

A house battery should be able to run your fans easily enough, and there are multiple ways of charging your house battery depending upon your lifestyle.

I have been charging my house battery mainly while driving, and then if I'm remaining parked for over a week or so, I charge it with a home made 12v DC gas generator. Although some people swear by solar panels, I spent more time swearing at mine.

 

[SoulRaven]

I haven't spent much time in northern winters but have been able to observe neighborhoods where some homes have a buildup of snow on the roof while a neighbor may have little or none. The difference being that the home with less snow has less insulation and that enough heat is being lost through the roof to melt all that snow.

This is the first time I have heard someone advocate that no insulation at all or even a thin sheet of plastic could be superior to a properly constructed/insulated habitation. Are winter jackets overrated as well?

I think that perhaps the answer lies in your heating costs. A van is small and very easy and cheap to heat.

In my off grid cabin, the roof is plywood with a metal roof over that. It is definitely one that melts the snow off the roof. My cabin is 20x30, yet even in the middle of winter I never use more than 10 gallons of kerosene in a month, which translates to $30-$45 per month. My current cabin has no insulation, but huge South facing windows, so very little heat is needed during the daytime, mainly only on overcast days.

In my previous cabin, which I lost due to a wildfire, it was 20x20 and heavily insulated, yet cost me over twice as much to heat, and was nearly impossible to cool in the summer. I purposely built my current cabin very cheaply, due to the possibility of losing it in the same way, yet I built it to take advantage of Mother Nature rather than trying to defeat her. The end result is a much more comfortable cabin with lower operating costs. If I lose this one, I will be going with an even more Mother Nature friendly hoop house style greenhouse, which will be even cheaper to build & maintain, and should lower my heating & cooling efforts even more.

As far as winter coats go, that is a totally different concept.

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Not only does insulation slow down temperature changes, it also slows down sound waves. Thats another hurray for insulation.

Sound may be a better argument for insulation than heating/cooling is. Since I don't really care who hears me, I find a simple pair of ear plugs works great for keeping other people's sounds out.

I guess some people worry about sound escaping from their homes, but I have never found this to be a problem, since I'm not noisy to start with. When I had an extremely insulated step van, I still found myself using ear plugs though. I hate it when you pull into a nice quiet place, then about 2am the night life starts in, but with ear plugs and a sleep mask, I can ignore almost anything.

 

[66788]

Insulation works both ways. Once your winter home-on-wheels is heated, it'll take more time to lose that heat to the outside cold.
Same in the summer. After the AC cools the van's interior and insulation, it'll take longer to transfer the outside heat back in.
It's all about increasing the time required for the transfer of heat. An uninsulated van will get hot or cold a lot quicker.

I lived on the beach in Costa Rica in my 1984 Westfalia and I recall waking up each morning to a scorching heat at 6:30 AM. The blazing sun would make the inside of the Westy intolerable. My Dodge van has 1 1/2 inches of styrofoam and insulates very well. I do believe I could have slept a lot longer in the Dodge van than the Westy.

 

[akrvbob]

I'm not a fan of fiberglass insulation for vans. R13 requires 3 1/2 inches of space and if you compress it it loses it's R value. That's 7 inches of space if you put it on both walls. That's too much lose for too little gain.

I recommend Polyiso which is a type of styrofoam. It is R6 per inch so 2 inches on each wall gives you R12. Much better!! I just used 1 inch and think that is enough.
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Off grid 24/7 I lived in Alaska 45 years and built my house (R19 in the walls and R38 in the roof--the minimum recommended) and a remote cabin and lived in a box van for 6 years. NOBODY I ever talked to suggested in any way that less insulation was better than more. 100% of all the people I knew and talked too said the more the better. Maybe they are all wrong and you're right though, anything is possible.
Bob

 

[akrvbob]

I'm not a fan of fiberglass insulation for vans. R13 requires 3 1/2 inches of space and if you compress it it loses it's R value. That's 7 inches of space if you put it on both walls. That's too much lose for too little gain.

I recommend Polyiso which is a type of styrofoam. It is R6 per inch so 2 inches on each wall gives you R12. Much better!! I just used 1 inch and think that is enough.
= = = = = = = == = =

Off grid 24/7 I lived in Alaska 45 years and built my house (R19 in the walls and R38 in the roof--the minimum recommended) and a remote cabin and lived in a box van for 6 years. NOBODY I ever talked to suggested in any way that less insulation was better than more. 100% of all the people I knew and talked too said the more the better. Maybe they are all wrong and you're right though, anything is possible.
Bob

 

[66788]

The only time that you shouldn't have insulation (in My Humble Opinion) is if you live very far south and cold stops being an issue and heat is a big issue.
Bob

I respectfully disagree with you Bob. Even in the desert a well insulated vehicle will not transfer the heat from the sun into the vehicle quickly provided there is adequate airflow to take out any built up heat. If you can be at the same temperature as the outside air while sitting in the direct sun, that's a winning situation. As was said by another poster in this thread, just getting out of the direct sun seems cool on a hot day. Insulation coupled with adequate airflow is the answer.

 

[akrvbob]

I've spent a lot of time in the desert in an insulated van and there is another issue to consider. I agree that if you do everything right you can keep the inside and outside temperature the same during the day. That' a good thing.

The problem is when the sun goes down and the insulation keeps doing its job, which is to hold the heat in. The thermal mass of the van releases it's heat as fast as it can escape from the openings in the van. If you are lucky, by bedtime the van has cooled off and you can sleep.

But the desert gets cold at night in the winter and by early morning the van will have cooled off and you will wake up cold. Since you threw off your blankets at bedtime because the van was still warm, you have to wake up enough to pull the blankets back on.

Now, I still recommend insulation and I will always have it in my rigs, but it does have disadvantages. Holding in the heat in the evening after a hot day is a disadvantage.
Bob

 

[SoulRaven]

Off grid 24/7 I lived in Alaska 45 years and built my house (R19 in the walls and R38 in the roof--the minimum recommended) and a remote cabin and lived in a box van for 6 years. NOBODY I ever talked to suggested in any way that less insulation was better than more. 100% of all the people I knew and talked too said the more the better. Maybe they are all wrong and you're right though, anything is possible.
Bob

Obviously we come from different backgrounds, and while what you and many others tend to suggest is perhaps best classified as commercial knowledge. I tend to associate with many other off gridders, and much of their knowledge as well as my own comes from the school of hard knocks and trial and error until you get it right.

Insulation, and heating/cooling methods happens to be subjects where I have quite a lot of hands on experience, ranging from extremely cold climates to the extremely hot desert climates plus the extremely humid climates as well.

Experience has taught me that anything you gain from insulation on one end of the spectrum, you will lose on the other end of the spectrum because of that same insulation. ie: If you gain an extra hour of warmth on one end, you will spend an extra hour on cooling on the other end because of that trapped heat. Insulation exponentially increases the amount of air that needs to be heated or cooled.

All too often commercial interests influence the way people think and act, and it is frequently not in their own best interest. History has proven that many so called technological advances, were not advances at all. It was not too many years ago that it was thought that an air tight home was the way to go, but history has proven that it was only a marketing tactic and in reality it was detrimental to both you and your house's health. Today, the most energy efficient homes are built with less insulation and more ventilation than the previous generation of homes, and instead take advantage of passive heating & cooling technologies.

The quicker that your living space can be heated or cooled, the more energy efficient it will be. Insulation, by design, is slow to heat or cool, consuming much more energy than heating or cooling that same amount of space without the insulation. In moderate conditions where no external heating or cooling devices are needed, insulation can and will help keep the temperature normalized. In less moderate conditions, where heating or cooling is needed, that same insulation will fight to keep the room temperatures steady, actually working against your heating or cooling devices, and consequently using more energy to achieve your desired temperatures.

Frank Lloyd Wright, a somewhat famous architect got it right when he said "Insulation is for idiots, only proper design can cut your utility bills while keeping you comfortable. Fighting nature is an exercise of futility, only being in tune with her can lead to ultimate success." Wright was recognized in 1991 by the American Institute of Architects as "the greatest American architect of all time". I guess he didn't know what he was talking about either...

 

[Seeker]

My opinion only. I would think for 2 identical structures van or house. When using mechanical devices to heat or cool. Once the correct temperature is arrived at. It will require less energy to maintain that temperature with an insulated structure.

Since heating a van with propane is easy I think if majority of time is spent in cold weather insulation would be best.

For me living in the deep south and having no added air conditioning I am now thinking would be better off without the insulation. I had to wait way into the night in that old brick house that baked in the sun to cool down.

For now I will try to park somewhere where I can create shade by adding tarp or that shade cloth. I will also experiment with the plywood on the cargo racks which would make a nice observation/party deck if the solar panel was not in the way. Are any of the framed solar panels strong enough to stand on?
A SEEKER