How do I size this?

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VanKitten

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I started to try to figure out what I want for power

Made a list of 12v lights I want.   12v appliances, etc.

But...here is where I am having problems. Where do I figure out how many watts they add up to?

I read that one coffee pot is 1250 watts for 10 minutes is 41.7 amp hrs.    Wow...so that isn't going to happen...sticking with 12v appliances.   

So..   Where can I find a list of typical devices and their watts required?   Things like 12v cooler, 12v cooker, 12v potable heat, 12v fans.     I look on Amazon, but they do not tell me this info.   Where to find it?  

I am thinking I can get about 400watts equal 33ah?   So a 50ah battery should do the job, but is it enough?

Sorry I sound so novice, but no one seems to have a straight forward way to add all this stuff up
 
You may have to reevaluate your expectations of 12v electric heat. That's really not feasible. You can have a propane appliance that uses no electricity or something like an RV furnace that uses electricity only for the blower. 12v mini ovens exist (roadpro), these typically are used only while driving due to high draw, but you could probably get away with using one off your battery bank if you wanted. Just know that you aren't going to have something like a conventional oven that's 12v.

That was my brief warning/introduction, SternWake will be along shortly to drown you in the electrical maths.
 
12 volt coolers are a waste. On a 90 degree day you can only expect to have 50-60 degree beer and ruined meat.
Budget for a 12 volt fridge or plan on buying lots of ice, even in a good ice chest. 
We used ice for a long time and just recently bit the bullet and bought a fridge...delightfully life changing. Nothing like a swallow of 33 degree beer on a hot afternoon :)
 
I am convinced that ion lithium battery is the way for me to go. There is way too much to learn about without also having all the additional battery care and out gassing safety issues too

Still looking to find a typical list of 12v items and there wattage draw

A 12v refrigerator is ok with me....what does it require in wattage?

I think I will only have space to 2 200w panels, but I plan to put up a wind turbine whenever camped. Still do not know how much charge they will actually deliver.

I read a long dissertation written by SternWake on the topic of also using the truck alternator to charge the battery....sure wish I understood half of it! Is there somewhere to learn this stuff step by baby step? Maybe get a system configured for me, and I can learn more as I go?
 
RoamingKat said:
I started to try to figure out what I want for power

Made a list of 12v lights I want.   12v appliances, etc.

But...here is where I am having problems. Where do I figure out how many watts they add up to?

Kat, I'm not sure if this is what you're asking but, in a 12 volt D.C. system, volts times amps will give you watts (so watts divided by either of the others will give the remaining one). Most electrical appliances will have volts, and either amps or watts on the label. 
In an A.C. system, this method will also get you close (but not exact) to the same values.
1250 watts sounds like a full-sized S&B Mr. Coffee. You can find much smaller units designed for 12V dc automotive use.
 
trying to heat anything with electricity is inefficient no matter what voltage you use or what battery you have. that said, it can be done. first there is no average consumption. find out exactly what the appliance requires. go to the manufacturers web site if you can't find the info on the resellers site. add up all your amp hours(ah) or watts(w). convert with ohms law to ah, this is how batteries are rated. get a battery bank 50% larger than your total use(at a minimum) then size you recharging source to the battery bank. oh yeah get a compressor fridge and forget the cooler. highdesertranger
 
400 watts is a lot of power and you will be very pleased with it. But 50 ah of batteries is too low. I'd recommend 6 golf carts.

If you think charging lead acid or AGMs is hard, wait till you delve into LiPo--horrible!! There is ton of info on leaded acid and very, very little on LiPo, I would NEVER, EVER recommend them as your first battery bank, not even your 4th.

I know a little about solar and batteries and I would NOT even consider LiPo!
Bob
 
I find that interesting.

Everything a read about ion lithium says it is easier, faster to charge,  recharges at the same efficiency even for the last 15%, takes all the power you can give it without a "sag" in charging, no maintenance, no out gassing, smaller size for the same AH, lighter weight, more temp tolerant, 10x more cycles, doesn't loose efficiency until very deep discharge, doesn't hurt the battery to not recharge totally, etc.    safety issues solved years back.  only down side is big price.    

Do you have a place where I can read more?   If the claims being made are false, I want to know about it now.   I will not have the space for 6 GC batteries.   Not even 3.  Ion looked good for the weight and space considerations.    Have I been taken in by sales pitches?  Maybe I had better rethink this?
 
RoamingKat said:
I find that interesting.

Everything a read about ion lithium says it is easier, faster to charge,  recharges at the same efficiency even for the last 15%, takes all the power you can give it without a "sag" in charging, no maintenance, no out gassing, smaller size for the same AH, lighter weight, more temp tolerant, 10x more cycles, doesn't loose efficiency until very deep discharge, doesn't hurt the battery to not recharge totally, etc.    safety issues solved years back.  only down side is big price.    

Do you have a place where I can read more?   If the claims being made are false, I want to know about it now.   I will not have the space for 6 GC batteries.   Not even 3.  Ion looked good for the weight and space considerations.    Have I been taken in by sales pitches?  Maybe I had better rethink this?

1:  Anyone who is handy enough with tools that they can use a drill and cut, strip, and crimp wires can easily put together a perfectly adequate lead acid house system, with or without solar panels, for not a lot of money.

A lithium system needs professional installation.  A few VERY advanced DIY'ers may be capable of figuring it out on their own, but most of us are gonna need to pay someone else to do it for us.

2:  If one assumes that a lithium system is the perfect house system, then we are faced with the choice of spending a LOT of money for a perfect system, or spending a LOT LESS for a good enough lead-acid system.  Most of us here don't have the money to pay for a perfect system.  Or if we do, we'd rather have a good enough system and use the difference to finance our trip to Alaska or whatever.

3:  Don't know if you are familiar with the Technomadia site or not, but if you haven't read their articles on their Lithium battery installation, I'd recommend you go there and read them.

http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/ 

4:  Do keep in mind the old saying:  "You can always tell who the pioneers are.  They're the ones with the arrows in their back."
 
A 400-550w system is big enough with a like sized bank to run a microwave, just maybe no frozen lasagnas or turkeys. I put up to 550w because a 200w panel uses the same frame as a 275w panel. I'd go for the extra 150w.

We had 490w on a 250 Ah bank for a season.

120v coffee pot pulling 900 watts...no problem ( runs 15 minutes)
900w microwave pulling 1375w for up to 10 mins..no problem
TV and Satellite all day.. no problem

Now heating, cooling and cooking take more. Even with our larger system we can only do it on a limited basis. The smallest A/C available, a hotplate pulling 470w and a 200 watt heater are used but usually only when the weather is good.

Now most of our stuff in use now is 120v for a few reasons. First, the 12v stuff is slower and often more expensive for what it does. Second is the hassle of the wiring. Were i to run a 12v water heater I would have to run a heavier set of wires back to it. At 120v I can just plug it into a outlet and be done. Last is the difference in variety, 12v is very limited.

That said there are 12v cooking appliances and even heaters. They don't work exactly the same but they do function once you get use to them. You still have to account for the draw at the bank, how to replace it and the proper wiring. A 300 watt 12v heater still pulls a lot of power on a smaller system.
 
RoamingKat said:
I find that interesting.

Everything a read about ion lithium says it is easier, faster to charge,  recharges at the same efficiency even for the last 15%, takes all the power you can give it without a "sag" in charging, no maintenance, no out gassing, smaller size for the same AH, lighter weight, more temp tolerant, 10x more cycles, doesn't loose efficiency until very deep discharge, doesn't hurt the battery to not recharge totally, etc.    safety issues solved years back.  only down side is big price.    

Do you have a place where I can read more?   If the claims being made are false, I want to know about it now.   I will not have the space for 6 GC batteries.   Not even 3.  Ion looked good for the weight and space considerations.    Have I been taken in by sales pitches?  Maybe I had better rethink this?

What vehicle are you selecting that has room for 400 watts of solar but only room for one battery? I'm picturing like an inverted pyramid shaped vehicle with a vast roof and maybe one unicycle wheel at the bottom.
 
Lifepo4s are indeed superior, far superior
  
BUt they too have needs or they can be destroyed by a single overcharge or undercharge.

Their voltage remains very flat throughout their charge and discharge, except for the very ends, so one really has very little idea where the battery is in its percentage by looking at voltage.

So say one decides to forgo automatic low voltage disconnect systems and says I'll just be there and stop discharging before they get to low.  Well without being there the whole time, eye on a voltmeter, that too low would happen too quickly.

Recharging them, same thing, once they get near the top end, they can begin the damaging process of overcharging all too quickly, and thus a high voltage disconnect is needed too.

Each lifepo4 cell is 3.2 volts nominal and thus 4 are needed in series  to make a 12 volt battery, and each battery needs to be top or bottom balanced, meaning it needs to be the same exact voltage when wired in series with the other cells, or bad things can happen.  They will likely also drift apart with more accumulated cycles, so a rebalancing is likely required every so often.  This requires charging each cell individually, basically babysitting the whole time during this process.

So Lifepo4 is not just a drop in replacement for lead acid batteries that simply costs more initially.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats

Blars a member here is using them, and I hope I did not screw up too badly in the above paragraphs.

I've basically bought my last lead acid deep cycle battery.  next will be Lifepo4, simply because I need to get a good grasp on it.  Though I can make any lead acid battery work hard and last its manufacturer claimed cycle life through proper recharging, the challenge is now gone.

But a battery newb whose grasp of electrics is still in its infancy, dipping their toe in the Lifepo4 world, is why you have gotten the response you have regarding this superior technology.

Lead acid batteries are quite forgiving, when one considers their overcharging or undercharging. One event is not going to kill them.

Kill a lifepo4 bank by one single overcharge, and it is not a matter of driving to walmart and having one of their employees remove the old battery and slap in a new one, and ringing the 'just fine' bell over and over.

As far as a drop in 12v Lifepo4, I saw this the other day:


http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4...V-100Ah-1.28-KWh-10C-Rate-With-Balancing.aspx

They are claiming  1000+ cycles.  Does this mean 1001?  IDK, I hope not.

1100$+ for 100AH, and that does not include a proper charging source which can be configured to the lifepo4 needs/desires


Regarding electrical consumption.  
1250 watts at 12.2v is  ~103 amp load.   Add in inverter inefficiency and this will be about 120 amps. Unless the battery bank is quite large expecting the battery to maintain 12.2v under such a load is unrealistic.  As the wattage remains the same and volts x amps=watts, a lower voltage means higher amperage to power the load, so that 103 amp load at 12.2v is now a 113 amp load at 11.1 volts, and the inverter efficiency at lower input voltages gets worse, so the total load would likely be nearing 140 amps, which of course drags the battery voltage even lower, making the amp draw even higher.  Vicious cycle.

Add to this Peukert's law, which says the larger the load, the less capacity the battery has to give.  A healthy fully charged 400Ah battery bank under a 140 amp load is not going to be able to provide 400AH total, but more like 220AH  total, and only 110 of that before reaching that 50% mark one should never really take a lead acid battery to.

So, transferring your stick and brick mr coffee to battery power can certainly be done, but designing such a huge battery bank and all its accoutrements in order to properly recharge it and keep it happy for an acceptable number of cycles, is a huge investment and will still be a hard workout on the batteries.

When one considers that one can make coffee overpropane, and consume Zero electricity the 'I have to have my Mr. coffee' gurgling away before i get out of bed!" seems quite obviously ridiculous. 

Living on battery power is not simply a choice to carry around enough battery capacity and transfer stick and brick luxuries to it, but consideration of how much juice those wall outlets actually need to provide to power them, and how little energy that huge heavy expensive battery can actually store and supply, and all the very significant inefficiencies along the path from battery to heating element. 

If it were easy to power such things, there would not be an energy crisis in the world, and we would not be burning all the fossil fuels we can find and extract, and toxifying the planet in the process of extraction or burning them.

Easier to use less electricity in the first place, and a Mr Coffee machine  is a slutty selfish Ampwhore.
 
One member on another forum swears by them but hey doesn't talk about his LiPo's. It's his LiPo's and their management system.

A LiPo isn't a battery, it's a pack of them like your laptop runs on. The difference is a electric car uses hundreds or thousands of them. The management system doesn't just monitor the voltage of the pack but of each cell to keep them balanced. Each cell also has a protection device to cut it off if it fails somehow.

It's the same as when you open the old square 6v batteries to find a buttload of AAAA batteries inside. Well minus the fancy management system.
 
Lithium is as great as they say. But there are very few of them actually being used and then only by people who are really into electronics.

The learning curve is steep and severe and the the cost of one small mistake is you lose the extremely expensive batteries.

Lithium are as good as they say, and they may be in your future but I totally believe they should NOT be anybodies first battery bank. You're very likely to kill that battery, let it be a cheap one, not the most expensive one you can find.
Bob
 
RoamingKat said:
I find that interesting.

Everything a read about ion lithium says it is easier, faster to charge,  recharges at the same efficiency even for the last 15%, takes all the power you can give it without a "sag" in charging, no maintenance, no out gassing, smaller size for the same AH, lighter weight, more temp tolerant, 10x more cycles, doesn't loose efficiency until very deep discharge, doesn't hurt the battery to not recharge totally, etc.    safety issues solved years back.  only down side is big price.    

Do you have a place where I can read more?   If the claims being made are false, I want to know about it now.   I will not have the space for 6 GC batteries.   Not even 3.  Ion looked good for the weight and space considerations.    Have I been taken in by sales pitches?  Maybe I had better rethink this?

In the 4mos. i've been a member here I have learned  a lot about solar panels...controllers...inverters...battery banks...enough to realize i'm very ignorant about these things and will be desperate for help when/if I ever get to the point of setting up a solar system.  

I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of  "sales pitches" of course no one is going to say "our products are over priced and you can get what you need for less else where".  

If I have my info right there are several people here I would trust about solar set ups and batteries and you are hearing from some now.   After all they have no vested interest in selling you a higher priced battery.

I am curious about what you're rigging out that there is no room for larger?  batteries...of course I don't know the sizes of the different batteries that have been mentioned.

           Anyhow good luck on your build       :)        Texas Jbird
 

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