Hesitant starting / misfire problem - 1993 Ford E-350

[Vagabound]

Hi,

This case has history, but I'm going to keep that brief in an effort to keep this intro short.

I discovered not long after I bought this truck about 8 months ago that it had a very serious pinging problem anytime it was taxed, and most often when climbing any type of slope.  This more or less limited me to driving only on flat ground.  Not feasible.

In an effort to fix that problem, and following some codes after seeing a "check engine" light a few times (OBD I), a few months ago I ended up replacing all spark plugs (but not wires), and replacing the EGR valve and the EVP sensor that sits on top of it.  Also, some spark plug wires were zip-tied together by the previous owner, possibly causing some cross-feed between wires.  Removed all of those zip ties and secured the wires separate from each other.  Also manually adjusted the timing (it was slightly off).  Upon test driving, the pinging problem was gone.  That was a huge relief.  Not sure which thing fixed it as circumstances didn't allow fixing only one thing at a time.

On to the current problem ...

Since buying the truck, it has started really well.  Easily, quickly, every time.  That was true _until_ that maintenance above.  Now it has a hesitant start once every four or five times starting.  And on the last road trip to Colorado, it seemed that the hesitant starting problem was getting progressively worse.  However, since arriving, it is still there, but not getting worse.  

Although I'm not sure that it really matters, a few times when it was hesitating starting, I stepped on the gas and I think it helped.  Might have been coincidental.  And I can feel, through the steering wheel and otherwise, that it is missing / misfiring, at least sometimes.  

In any case, that is the background.  In an effort to troubleshoot and fix this hesitant starting problem now, I want to replace the plug wires.  Basic preventative maintenance and a potential cause of the current problem.

Two questions to start:

1.  Do you think that an estimate of $260 to replace the plug wires only is reasonable on this vehicle or that I'd be getting scalped.  I'm leaning towards "scalped", though I don't really know.  Just an impression.

2.  Given the background above, what would you check to try to identify and fix this hesitant starting problem (items and sequence if you know it)?

Thanks for any help,

Tom

 

[Gary68]

a set of wires is $40-60 so.change one at a time

the pinging under a load is indicative of the timing being to advanced,you might of retarded it a little to much

 

[Almost There]

The $260.00 fee might not be too bad considering that, depending on the size of engine, the seats have to be pulled to get the doghouse out and there's still one or 2 plug wires that are going to be somewhat difficult to access IIRC. More time is spent on pulling things apart to get at the wires and putting it all back than actual time changing them.

When you said manually adjusted, did you mean without a timing light? Also, when it was adjusted did you make sure that it was tightened back down firmly, I've seen timing go off 'all by itself' because of failure to tighten properly.

 

[user 423]

How old are the dist.cap and rotor? (or does it have coil on plugs?)

 

[user 2252]

To begin with, you should do a compression check on all cylinders. This will determine if the mechanical components of a 4 stroke, internal combustion engine (quickly, the rings and pistons inside a cylinder that contain the explosion of a mixture of fuel and air, with valves that open and close, (to let in a mixture of fuel and air, close, then compressed to be ignited by the spark plugs thus transferring or converting this explosive energy to mechanical movement or turn the wheels to make it go. ( Whew! for those of you that know what I mean and for the ones who don't.) You could have the finest spark plugs and spark plug wires that money could buy and they would be useless if you can't contain the explosive energy that happens inside that cylinder. (now, imagine 6 of those cylinders or, or 8!)

If the piston rings are worn, gases will leak from the cylinder, if the valves won't seal, the explosive energy will escape through the leaks instead of being focused to push the piston down, transferring that energy to the crankshaft, on through the transmission (think about that word for a minute) and on to the rear wheels.

Once the mechanical condition of the engine has been determined to be good, then we can look at all the other stuff that's used to make it all work. (spark plugs, wires, ect. ect.)

OK, ok, you asked what would I do to fix it.

 

[Vagabound]

Gary:  Understand, thanks.  I was trying to avoid spending all day cussing and messing with the doghouse, which probably won't come out without removing a seat.  So, in your opinion, of all the things done so far, you think that adjusting the timing likely stopped the pinging?  Part of the reason that I'm dreading letting anyone (including me) screw with it now is that I'm afraid the pinging will return.  That would be bad.

Almost There:  By manual, I did not mean without a timing light.  I just meant that we did it with a timing light and tools vs. letting the computer adjust the timing as is normally the case.  The distributor was tightened.

slow2day:  That is a sticking point -- I'm trying to remember.  During that maintenance, we spend considerable time talking about the cap and rotor, but in the end, I'm not sure what happened with them.  My best guess is that we re-used both, after some wire brushing, rather than replace them, because they seemed to be in good condition from just a visual check.  As for age, no way to know.

gsfish:  I get your point, but if it was really a 15-minute job, I'd have done it already.  Elevation difference between CO and home is about 3,000 feet.  And about 6,000 feet between CO and where I'll be for the next six months.  Does that mean that part or all of this job should be delayed and done at sea level?

Vonbrown:  I sort of got lost in the explanation of the function of an internal combustion engine, and lost your main point.  I suppose it is that a cylinder compression test should be done before replacing the wires.  That said, I don't see how the compression problems that you described would lead to the symptoms in my original post.

Thanks to all.

Tom

 

[user 423]

Vonbrown:  I sort of got lost in the explanation of the function of an internal combustion engine, and lost your main point.  I suppose it is that a cylinder compression test should be done before replacing the wires.  That said, I don't see how the compression problems that you described would lead to the symptoms in my original post.

Since it's a '93, it's probably high miles. Whenever you buy an old vehicle with an unknown history,it's a good idea to see 'what you have'. Ideally, you would do a compression test (or leakdown) to see what condition the valves,rings are in. If the readings aren't so good then 1 or more cylinders can affect the running condition. On vans w/balky doghouses, it's a good idea to do everything at once. Not doing a complete tuneup or replacing just some items is a half-assed job and in the long run will cost you more. If you plan on keeping it, document the date/mileage of every maintenance item completed.

 

[jonsun]

I got to gfish's comment and stopped. I think he's dead on. timing is very tiny in changes. like 1/3" is 10 degrees or something there about. need to get a timing light and set it.

 

[Gary68]

i'm not sure what type of ignition you have

the old is vacuum advance where you set the timing and make small manual adjustments when needed and vacuum from the engine advances it when you give it throttle

the new is a fixed timing and a crank sensor send a signal to the ecu that makes all the adjustments but still has distributor cap and rotor

the newest is a coil per cylinder,full computer,no cap or rotor

o.k. had a look and found this for a 93 5.0

'The computer can only adjust the timing if you set the base timing to 10* BTDC.
The computer has to have a starting point (called base timing) and it adjust the timing from that point.
The SPOUT shorting bar is a in line jumper in the SPOUT wire that runs from the computer to the ICM.
You remove the SPOUT so that the computer has no control over the timing while you adjust the base timing.
This information should be on a sticker under your hood.

ICM = Ignition Control Module (TFI)
SPOUT = SPark OUT adjustment (timing) from the computer."

 

[bullfrog]

How many miles has this engine gone? Did a mechanic check it out when you bought it? Is it showing any signs of wear such as oil in the intake or blow by or adding oil regularly? Why did you have to reset timing, had someone set it incorrectly or was it due to wear? Lots of unknowns here. As Vonbrown was trying to say a compression check or cylinder leakage test may have given some indication of wear and would have been easily done when spark plugs were changed, how did the old spark plugs look, all the same, any odd ones as far as deposits or color. Check engine light came on you said did it set any codes? You may be money ahead to go to a tuneup shop with a good reputation if you are near one to get everything set to factory specs and engine compression and leakage tests run. Otherwise start doing a lot of research on how to get every thing set to factory specs. Once you do that then we can start trouble shooting and looking for problems caused by wear. We can make lots of guesses here like does it have a converter in the exhaust could it be starting to plug up? Have you put the engine under a load in the dark and looked for arcing plug wires using a spray bottle to mist lightly with water causing a miss? All these things are good guesses but what we need is to know is that every thing is the way it should be from the factory to begin with. One of the problems today is people want quick fixes by changing a bunch of parts. You will be much better off to take your time and learn how things work then you can replace only those things that are not working to factory specs. Unfortunately today a lot of replacement parts are not as good as what came from the factory so the less you replace the better off you are.

 

[jonsun]

Did I say that? I'm smarter than I thought!!

Guy

sorry, meant gary68

but pinging comes from 3 things, too much advance, too rich, or gas with too low octane

 

[jonsun]

ok bullfrog makes a good point about arcing plug wires too...and too rich can mean plugged air flow such as a catalytic converter

 

[Vagabound]

Somewhere back there I mentioned that I set the timing with a timing light, and with help from someone who knew a lot more than me. That doesn't mean it was done right, but at least the pinging stopped.

Tom

 

[user 423]

1.  Do you think that an estimate of $260 to replace the plug wires only is reasonable on this vehicle or that I'd be getting scalped.  I'm leaning towards "scalped", though I don't really know.  Just an impression.
Tom

Update: I just bought a '93 E150 with the 5.8 motor. I've found that access to the plugs & wires on this thing is pretty bad and overall the engine is much more difficult to work on than my '91 Dodge. So the $260 price is not so bad if it includes the wires + distributor cap and rotor (which you really need to replace at the same time so you have a good electrical path to the new plugs).

 

[Vagabound]

Gary and Bullfrog:
Thanks for the detailed and informative replies. Sometimes in this forum they get posted a little late or out of sequence and I've already read it and gone beyond it and so I don't know they're there unless I go back and look over the old posts. That's what happened in this case.

Gary: Although I don't know for sure, I think my ignition is the second type, "new" as you listed them. It is certainly not the third type. It does have a distributor cap and a single coil.

Bullfrog: Sort of drowning in the questions, but I get your point. In my experience, a baseline is very important if you can achieve it.

gsfish said:
As Gary68 says change one at a time, can't go wrong. Fifteen minutes later you will be $200 richer. Would be a good time to change out the distributor cap too.

Yesterday, 9:30am to 5:30pm ... so, you nailed it! 15 minutes! ;-)

Distributor cap had already been changed a few months ago. The rotor was cleaned up a few months ago but kept in place. I did not change it yesterday because I want to change one thing at a time related to this problem.

I changed the oil and the oil filter, changed the air filter, and most importantly, replaced the spark plug wires. Not sure I'd use that same brand of wires again because they seemed shorter than the ones that were on there and sometimes barely fit. I'll attach a photo of that brand from O'Reilly.

Slow2day is exactly right about the complication involved in doing the plug wire change on this vehicle. Huge pain in the ass and what took most of the time. Removing the passenger seat took a long time because it probably hadn't been done in years. Then the doghouse needed to be removed. After that, the plugs are still not easy to reach as a couple of them are right in the middle of the engine along the firewall and not easily accessible from either side. 

Of course I changed the wires one at a time. To solve the problem of not being able to get the new wire in place through very tight engine spaces, I tied a string on the old wire before I pulled it through the engine space. Then I attach that same string to the new wire and pulled it back in the opposite direction. That didn't always work as planned, but it helped a lot.

When removing the old wires, I noticed that one of the wires was sitting loosely on top of its spark plug, not properly connected. Probably the reason for the missing and maybe even the occasional hesitant starting. The new wires may or may not have been necessary considering that, but I wanted to replace them anyway as preventive maintenance.

So far, the engine seems to be running better. I haven't driven it enough to know whether the missing is completely gone, but there's a road trip coming up in the very near future so I'll find out.

Thanks again to everybody for all your suggestions in this thread. I'll post an update when I know more.

And, gsfish, all total, about $250 richer and somewhat wiser.

Tom

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[AbuelaLoca]

Vagabound, because I have a similar van, I'd like to relate an issue I have.... The "overdrive" button on the end of the wiper lever. When I press that button it's like I'm driving a totally different van with the hesitations (I call them hiccups and coughs) and not wanting to start. Press the button again and it drives like a dream. I don't know if I should worry about it or not!!! :-D

 

[Dennis]

Seems like I remember taking the tire off passenger side when I had a 1995 E-250 with the 5.8l to make it easier to change the last couple of plugs and wires out.

Be ready to learn or invent some new words if you need to change out the IAC motor/valve and have no one to help you.

 

[Vagabound]

AbuelaLoca:
Interesting. I guess you know that the button is just a toggle. Toggles back and forth between regular Drive and Overdrive. Not sure if you should be worried or not, but I can tell you that your van should drive well in both of those positions. Something's not right. Do you have any idea which drive is working and which one is not? If only regular Drive is working, your engine should be louder than you think it should be when you're at highway speeds and you'll get even worse gas mileage.

Dennis:
I didn't pay attention to whether an absent Tire would help or not. I'll have to take a look at that sometime. Thanks.

IAC = I'm Always Cussing ?

Tom

 

[user 423]

The 'absent tire' refers to removing the right front wheel so you can get to the first 2 plugs through the wheel well. It won't help you now but for future reference, here's some interesting reading on a Ford forum:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/516809-1995-e150-conv-van-tuneup-time-what-a-joy.html

Do you have a code reader for your van? My CEL came on and the van died on me several times just one day after I bought it! I bought an Innova 3145 OBD1 reader ($30 at Autozone) and found that I had knocked off a vacuum line when checking the tranny fluid. It ran fine after reattaching it to the fitting and I'm so relieved it was nothing serious. I've got all the parts to do the tuneup on mine, so I'll be tackling that soon.

 

[Dennis]

Tom, yeah IAC can stand for I'm Always Cussing also. lol I meant Idle Air Control in this case. Haven't had occasion to test it again but I believe one other person out front that can stick an arm down and place a finger on that side would turn that into just a few minute job.