help please with my solar shopping list

[bantamcattle]

howdy. i will be heading into PHEONIX in the next couple days with many things to do, with the main goal of getting all i need to complete my solar setup. so i would like some help so i can besure to get every little bit needed to hav solar charge up my batteries.
what i hav already:
-2 12v batteries. they are C&D Technologies UPS12-210MR. AGM deep cell batteries. both are rated at 53.4 AH and they hav small bolts instead of posts.
-many feet of large battery cable, some feet of a little bit lighter cable then many feet of 16 gauge speaker wire.

what i plan to get:
-a 200ish watt house type panel in the 200$ range off of Craigslist. currently there is one listed like this. if not Sunelec has 150w panel for 190$
-MPPT charge controller. it seems the Morningstar SS-MPPT-15L is my only option. a solar place in MESA advertises it on craigslist on sale for 159$ and Sunelec has it at 179$. i havent seen anything else under 200$.
-connectors. i hope to use my wires and hav some one put on the proper ends for me.

my questions:
-is this all i need?
-will this general setup werk and are the above mentioned parts compatible?
-on the top of my batteries one thing it says is "float charge voltage: 13.5 to 13.8 VDC @ 77 F". this seems to be different than other batteries i've read about and wonder if its an issue.
-where can i get help having cable connections made. maybe the solar store in MESA can help but if not where can i go. i assume the MESA shop atleast will hav the connectors but not sure if the can help mount them on cables. i can cut and strip cable and wire but not sure about soundly making connections on real thick cables.

additional information:
-i plan on dragging the panel out and setting it up at each campsite and not mounting anything permanently for awhile.
-my target is to get every thing for 400$

thankyu for any help and idea!

 

[wrcsixeight]

Y0u will need a fuse or circuit breaker between the charge controller and battery. &nbsp;The charge controller will state what rating to use.<br><br>Automotive Stereo shops can properly crimp ring terminals onto cabling.<br><br>ALso something like an Anderson powerwerks connector to easily disconnect the panel for travelling. Various sizes exist.<br><br>Many newer panels come with MC4 connectors, so a length of cabling with MC4 connectors installed that you can cut in half and run to the charge controller would be appropriate.<br><br>Some older panels use MC3 connectors<br>Some use junction boxes.<br><br>Crimping on connectors is not difficult, though the proper tool and technique are required.&nbsp;

 

[peacetara]

Unless you have wiring and fuses and stuff it will be more than $400, if you buy the items listed. But to answer your question that sounds like a good list. You do know that a 200W panel is fairly large right? They are kind of a burden to take in and out all the time.

Plus you will likely want some sort of 12 v cigarette plug and/or an inverter to 110v. None of these things are likely free. Tho since you already have the batteries perhaps you already have these things.

Generally wiring it all up is pretty straightforward. Solar panel goes to charge controller charge controller goes to battery. And the plugs connect to the battery.

Fuses traditionally go on the red/positive/+ wire, and switches(if you are doing any) also traditionally go on the red/positive/+ wire. You need at least 1 fuse between the battery and your plugs or inverter (the load). For awesome points you can put one on every wire path.

Don't forget you will need a ground wire, it goes from negative on the battery to anywhere on the frame of the vehicle (the big giant beams under the vehicle). Auto parts stores and Walmart(in the battery section) will carry this wire, complete with the ends you need(probably).

Since you have two batteries you will likely want them wired together. Sunelec (or wherever you buy the panel and controller) will likely sell you the cables needed for that, and show you the right way to wire the batteries together. Make sure they know the voltage of each battery, they also will have the wires to go from the panel to the controller.

Any electric supply place, or Home Depot type place will have the other wiring you need. As for what size wire to get, depends on how long you need the wire to go. The shorter the better with 12V systems, or you end up buying big thick expensive wires! There are wire size calculators that will do all the math for you, google for one and you will find lots. When using the Calculators calculate for 1% loss if you want to be awesome, 2 or 3% loss if you need CHEAP.

Overall wish you lots of success!

I also happen to be in Phoenix right now, if I can be of any help send me a PM.

With love,
Tara

 

[bantamcattle]

wow, thankyu for the smartness! wrcsixeight and peacetara, much appreciated!

-i do hav an inverter and 12v cig plug. (inverter is xantrax 400 with digital display)
-i dont know what a breaker box is but will research. i assume a fuse is more common. i also assume once its determined what size fuse i need, an inline fuse setup can be purchased at an automotiv store or speaker install place.
-i can do smaller butt connection on wires but not sure i hav the tools to deal with large cables, like 8 guage and 4 guage.
-the car audio suggestion is very good, thankyu.
-can the wire from the panel to the controller be the speaker wire i hav, with the proper connector (MC4 or whatever) on the ends?
-my batteries sit behind my drivers seat in my van. the floor there is just painted metal. can i chip away the paint there and ground to that metal or should i ground outside and underneath to the frame? outside grounding may require drilling that i cant do.
-i forgot to ask if its possible to include my starting battery on the charge controller to help keep it charged?
-i also hav a multi battery marine switch i never installed and not sure if that can be utilized in any way?
-yes a home panel will be very large, like 3ft by 5.5ft and weigh god knows how much but getting it connected and werking will be werk enough for me now and luckily i only move camp every 10-14days.

(Tara, i may PM yu as i tend to get quite overloaded and stressed on the PHEONIX runs and this one may be a bit more strenuous with solar set up, rotor replacement and 2 tires to replace, all the while trying to find resting spots each night. stressful!)

 

[peacetara]

A breaker box is similar to the things in your house, those big grey panels, you have to open the little door, and flip the circuit breaker every once in a while.&nbsp; a breaker box is the actual big grey box that circuit breakers go inside of.&nbsp; They are a LOT more expensive than fuses, but the upside is, you just flip a switch and suddenly it all works again (you don't have to replace the fuse).<br><br>BUT you need to be careful with either one, fuses (and circuit breakers) trip when you pull too much electricity thru the cable, in a well sized system they protect the wiring, so you don't start fires.&nbsp; (if you put too much electricity thru a cable that can't handle it, then they tend to get HOT, and eventually they can start fires).&nbsp; I don't know about you, but fires inside things is generally an awful idea!&nbsp; Fuses will be a lot cheaper startup cost, and if properly sized for your wires and load, would in theory never need replacing.<br><br>Regarding using Speaker Wire, for 12V, that will be a VERY short run (I'm guessing less than 5 feet) You'd have to use a wire size calculator to be sure, but I'm guessing your panel will be a touch farther away than speaker wire could reasonably handle.&nbsp; You will just want to buy the cable from the Solar panel place.&nbsp; You will almost certainly want outdoor weatherized cables, with a super good connector.&nbsp; I'd suggest for just starting out to just buy the cable from the Solar Panel seller people.&nbsp; They will get you the right cabling for YOUR panel (mc3, mc4, etc connectors), and will almost certainly be all weatherproofed, and ready for running outside.&nbsp; When I bought my cable, I think it was $40 or something.&nbsp; They aren't the cheapest cables in the world. <br><br>In a pinch, you maybe could do the grounding to the van floor, but it's my understanding that the van floor is not directly connected to the frame of the vehicle (if this is true, then it would be a bad idea).&nbsp; You want the ground to be connected to the frame, so I would strongly suggest NOT doing that, just to be safe.&nbsp; In my cargo van, there are some little holes you can just punch out, so I didn't have to drill thru the floor. I imagine there is a hole, or a place to punch out, if you dig around and look.&nbsp; Worst case you could maybe run it out the bottom of a nearby door I guess, until you find someone with a drill.<br><br>Around the starting battery connected up, it depends on the charge controller, you will almost certainly not want the house batteries electrically connected to the starting battery, so your charge controller would need to support 2 battery banks (some charge controllers do this).&nbsp; I have no idea if yours would.&nbsp; You could maybe use the multi-battery marine switch in a funky way to make it work, as long as you remembered to flip the switch whenever you are using electricity from the house batteries.&nbsp; Generally I would just recommend keeping the 2 systems completely separate, especially just starting out.<br><br>I think I got all the questions answered.. I'm betting wrcsixeight knows the answers to the things I don't.<br><br>Anyways, wishing you lots of successes.<br><br>With Love,<br>Tara

 

[wrcsixeight]

If you are going to use over say 125 watts through the inverter, the ciggy plug receptacle cannot handle it. &nbsp;The closer the inverter is to the battery over short thick wiring, the better for bigger loads.<br><br>If you get an inline fuse, get the ATC/ATO type, not the glass barrell fuse.<br><br>The wiring from the panel to controller and controller to battery should be at least 12 awg.<br><br>Speaker wire if it is this thick and copper i guess is acceptable.<br><br>MC4 connectors i believe need a special crimping tool. &nbsp;Better to buy wire with the connectors attached<br><br>Grounding to the body is less preferable than to the frame.<br><br>The charge controller would need an auxiliary out function to charge the engine battery. &nbsp;Wiring it so it charges both batteries without this feature would not allow the batteries to be separated with the engine off.<br><br>Large panels can be nominally rated at 24 or 36 volts. &nbsp;The MPPT charge controller needs to be able to handle these voltages. &nbsp;Not all can.<br><br>I use a marine battery switch, have been doing so for 11 years to isolate the engine battery or combine it with the house or run the vehicle off either

 

[bantamcattle]

super great, thankyu!

it really seems wise to purchase the premade wire from panel to charge controller. especially thinking of the weather proofing.

i'll leave off integrating my starting battery for now.

my van floor has tons of little holes i can punch wider and then search out a bolt on my frame.

the cig plug i use has 2 wires coming off the back that i attach directly to the battery to charge my phone. i hav no other 12v devices at this time.

as far as my inverter goes. i've been attaching it to the batteries with clips it came with when i use it then detaching. should i stick to this set up or should i be looking to wire it in more permanantly, maybe with thicker wire?

are there any wires that need to be shorter? i believe i have enough heavy guage cable (thick like whats on the starting battery) to connect my 2 batteries together, run a ground and run cable to the charge controller from the batteries. nothing is going to be mounted to start with so it may be nice to leave some wiggle room if i can.

so i atleast need a fuse on the positiv wire going to the inverter (this may answer my above question with yes i should hard wire my inverter and dump the clamps) from the batteries and then if i added another fuse, the next spot would be on the positv line between the charge controller and the batteries? (i can see myself doing 1-2 fuses total)

thankyu agin. this is a big help!

 

[wrcsixeight]

The MC4 connectors will attach close to the panel. &nbsp;They are locking and weatherproof, and I think all of them are 10 awg when bought already attached. &nbsp;They are not meant to be connected and disconnected repeatedly.<br><br>When Buying &nbsp;a premade MC4 cable , you can buy a 25 foot length in half and attach the cut ends to the charge controller to have a 12.5 distance between the panel or controller. &nbsp;Obviously other lengths exist. Generally these cables are stranded wire, but very thick strands, and inflexible.<br><br>Many charge controllers just use screws to crush the open wires in the receptacle. &nbsp;These can corrode and or loosen up with time. So either check these wires often or make it so they cannot be vibrated and stressed, and still check them on occassion.<br><br>The wiring between the controller and battery should be as thick as you can fit on the terminals of the charge controller. &nbsp;Usually this will be no thicker than 6 awg, though there are methods to use thicker wire, but whether it is worthwhile depends on the particular system.<br><br>Acquiring welding wire for the controller to battery connections is desirable for its flexibility.<br>The following company can make cables for you for a decent price with fast free shipping.<br>http://genuinedealz.com/<br><br>The clamps to the battery from inverter can be replaced with ring terminals which are more permanent and safer. &nbsp;A large fuse or circuit breaker on the (+) is required, to protect the wiring itself, not the devices one plugs into the inverter, or the inverter itself. &nbsp;The fuse should be close to the battery as is viable.<br>

<br><br><br>About charging the engine battery via solar, I prefer to move all loads, besides the engine computer itself, to the house batteries, so the engine battery never gets discharged, and thus never needs solar recharging current.<br><br>Via my manual switch, I can add the engine battery to my solar current, but rarely do so and never 'need' to.<br><br>Generally you want all DC wiring short and fat, within reason. &nbsp;If you want a little more length for some leeway in positioning devices, get a little fatter wire to minimize the voltage drop and increase performance. &nbsp;It is cheaper in the long run to oversize it once than undersize it and redo it later if upgrades are needed to accommodate more loads.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

 

[Moby T]

If you buy "house" type panels make sure you check the warranty. &nbsp;Most house type panels are not warranteed if used on anything mobile. &nbsp;Buyer beware...

 

[akrvbob]

EVerything on your list sounds good. Some thoughts:<br><ul><li>I've done business with sunelec.com--Great Outfit!</li><li>House panels are high voltage. Make sure that controller will handle the voltage coming out of your panel. It probably will but be sure first.</li><li>Buy an mc4 extension cable and cut it in half for cable.</li><li>That is a very small battery. Way too small for a 200 watt panel. It will float very early in the morning and most of the days power will be wasted. You would be better served by a pair of AGM golf carts in Series. I have Full River and have been very pleased. Best places for batteries is at Discount Solar in Quartzsite, AZ.&nbsp; No sales tax on batteries there. $260 each for Full River AGM golf carts. About 120 miles West of Phoenix.</li><li>I'm in Quartzsite now and you are welcome to stop in and we will give you a hand with installation. Leaving here in Feb. 4 for Yuma. Find a map to my camp on my blog:</li></ul><span style="text-decoration: underline; color: #0000ff;"><strong>http://cheaprvlivingblog.com/</strong></span><br>Bob

 

[bantamcattle]

thankyu much for the continued information.

i dont like that charge controllers connect with crushed wire. seems limiting but im sure it werk as others make it happen.

when i looked at the Morningstar website it mentioned that the charge controller im looking at can handle 12v, 24v and 36v but did hav a max input of 200w (im looking at 225w panel) but searching internet i found people using this controller with over 200w panels and doing just fine).

a panel pruchased on craigslist would probably be considered used and thus im not sure warranty benefits would apply.

this brings up the question of how to test a panel. i was thinking a multimeter could read the voltage and wattage outputs if there is full sun and i could get readings off weld points on back of the panel or maybe off the wires?

Bob, yor question about my batteries is good and opens up an area im not too sure about but first i wanted to double check that yu saw i hav 2 of those batteries? those 2 batteries cover my use quite well; when both are charged to 12.8v i get about 12 days out of them before they both reach 12.2v. now my usage would rise once i had solar but i dont mind being conservativ and do just fine going many days only charging my phone if i had too. (the biggest benefit to solar for me is that i dont hav to campout in a city for multiple days waiting for my batteries to charge at an auto parts store) thus the question arises if i'd be benefitted by a smaller simpler panel? Sunelec has a 130w 12v panel for 180$. would this panel meet my usage the same but simplify the instal aswell as allow me to get a cheaper charge controller? the panel im looking at is 225w which is overkill but is in the same general price range, so i've been following the recommended guidelines of buy as much panel as yu can afford and get a MPPT charge controller.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I'd recommend not maxing out the controller. &nbsp;An edge of cloud event can briefly add 60% to the rated output of the panel. &nbsp;It could be enough to release the magic blue smoke.<br><br>12 days to discharge to 12.2 from 100 amp hours of battery certainly does not call for a 200+ watt panel, but I understand you will just be setting it up when needed, so in that case I understand the desire for a faster recharge.<br><br>Are you house batteries wired to charge from the alternator? &nbsp;With adequate wiring from the alternator, and your listed usage, you might be able to forgo the solar unless you never drive.<br><br>While A digital multimeter is good for easily testing open circuit voltage of a panel, testing the current it puts out requires a little more effort, and is usually limited to 10 amps.<br><br>Clamp on DC ammeter like the craftsman 82369 is a full function digital multimeter and a clamp on ac/DC Ammeter. &nbsp;All you need to test current is to clamp the meter over 1 wire. &nbsp;But the panel has to be hooked to a discharged battery to measure.<br><br>In general, to test the panel before purchase, if you &nbsp;arereading the maximum open circuit voltage of the panel with it in full sun, it is working fine. &nbsp;Inspect the frame/ glass joint for water intrusion, and any discoloring around this edge.<br><br>After doing the math, the most I have ever gotten out of my 130 watt panel has been about 117 watts. &nbsp;This was on a cool day with good sun and hungry batteries. The ratings of panels are always optimistic.<br><br><br>

 

[bantamcattle]

well i was beginning to get swamped but it seems everyones input is learning me quite well!

it also seems my electricity usage is low. i called Discount Solar in Quartzsite and said i drain 100AHs of battery to 12.2v over 10 days and the guy just started laughing. he determined i would be fine with a 95w panel and a nonMPPT charge controller. their offer was 95w panel for 309$ and Morningstar 10amp charge controller (ss-10) for 66$. i then called Sunelec who hav 130w panel for 180$ and a Xantrax c35 charge controller for 93$. finally i called Solarpenny in Mesa and they hav 2 different kits that feature 100w panel, Morningstar 10amp charge controller and a 10ft cord for 250$.

im kind of smiling with the idea of needing less tho the install will be the same.

Bob, thankyu for the offer of help. i think the timing is off for meeting in Quartzsite tho my plan is to head towards Salome and enjoy the BLM land around the wilderness area between Salome and HWY10 but if i really fail at the install in PHEONIX i could maybe hed to Yuma instead, we shall see. hopefully it goes smoothly and if the panel and controller will be cheaper i can thus feel freer getting tools, supplies, help, relaxing dinner out!

 

[VanGirl]

Please read this article before you do all this. It is long and windy but the best information I have ever seen on mobile solar.<br><br>I have built several solar systems. Judging from your comments and component list you are going to run into some problems. Cable length and gauge is so very important. You also will need to set the voltage on the charge controller. You need a voltmeter to measure voltage levels as you go along.<br><br>I recommend that you solder not crimp all you connections. A propane torch works well for this.<br><br>Enjoy the read!!<br><a href="http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/" rel="nofollow"><br>http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/<br></a>

 

[Moby T]

Good advice VanGirl !!

 

[wrcsixeight]

<br><br>Strong opinions exist on whether soldering or crimping is better.<br><br>Here are some arguments for both sides.<br><br>http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26653112.cfm<br><br><br><br>

 

[Moby T]

Think the key word is "unmounted" such as a trailer hook up. &nbsp;Then crimp. &nbsp;If it is mounted, solder is better. &nbsp;If not, our computers would be huge with all the butt connectors inside...

 

[bantamcattle]

hi VanGirl, thankyu for the link, it looks like a great article but i am going to pass on reading it for now. i started reading it and felt like i was getting overwhelmed. in all honesty im looking to just get by. my previous 2 resupply runs to PHEONIX left me with severe headaches and my last single overnight supply in Buckeye left me sick too. im not doing good with the overnighting in cities, so im looking to lower the stress this time and take better care of myself. so i will be hapi with crimped or welded connectors. anyways i plan on using the factory made cable between the panel and the controller then use 8 to 10 guage cable between batteries, ground and inverter. i will figure the fuses i need and include them. i dont hav the tools to put ends on my big cables so an automotiv or car stereo or solar professional will be doing this for me. im feeling comfortable with the plan. is there something you see missing or at fault?

wrcsixeight - to answer yor question about using the alternator: my budget allows for about 500miles of driving per month. this usually looks like 1-2hr drive to campsite, sit for 2weeks then a 1-2hr drive to citi, then a 1-2hr drive to next camp. it would be cool and simpler if this charged my batteries but from all i've read it seemed like not the best route as my drives wouldnt be long enough to fully charge the batteries plus im not sure about the wear it may cause on batteries having the charge controlled by the alternator. also i like the idea of waiting for the sun to provide electricity should i need it as apposed to needing to charge the batteries and its not time to drive anywhere.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I would recommend using wire larger than 8 awg for the inverter if you ever plan on using it near its capacity.<br><br>You can certainly get away without hooking the house batteries to the alternator. &nbsp;I frequently do not bother bringing the house batteries into the alternator circuit, but do enjoy that option when the batteries are very low and the sunlight is scarce.<br><br>You can always add that option later, as the alternator can do a good job at lower states of battery charge with sufficient wiring to the house batteries. &nbsp;It is just fully charging via alternator which is the challenge and rarely accomplished.<br><br>Having solar is great.<br>Best of luck.<br><br><br><br>

 

[bantamcattle]

thanks wrcsixeight. usually its just my laptop, hair clippers and coffee grinder that go in the inverter but i hav used my desktop computer thru it before which would be the biggest thing but maybe my future holds a water boiler or rice cooker or maybe a dehydrator and maybe those are large draws, so i will keep the 6 AWG cable in mind for the inverter. wish i knew the cable sizes i hav, just guessing 8 and 10 but i will know for sure once intown.