Heavy duty battery for minivan???

[Kathleen]

Just when my kids are visiting from UK my minivan battery died. There's no room to park it at my house and I was so busy multi tasking I did not drive it for 6 weeks in cold weather. I did know the battery would need to be replaced in the next 6 months.

Have to get a new one installed tomorrow so we can do some scenic travel while the weather is nice. The only CRVL video that's currently available that I have not watched is the one on the Solenoid and related info. No time to do it tonight.

So my question is do I need a heavy duty battery for my 2005 T & C Touring Minivan? I told my mechanic I want to run a small Dometic fridge and recharge laptop and cell phone, maybe a few other small items. He read the info re the heavy duty battery. It said "charges small accessories." Should I be paying for the heavy duty battery rather than the much less expensive one to get the extra power?

I remember watching the CRVL Kia Sedona Minivan video. It ran off the van battery with an inverter and other equipment. In case anyone sees this before tomorrow AM input would be appreciated. Pricey battery arrives tomorrow from a bigger city. Thanks!!!

 

[Surly Biker]

Sin e everyone else is asleep. I'll offer a couple thoughts. Are you sure that your existing battery is dead? By that I mean, if you have an alternator charger already in place, can you take it for a 30 minute drive and see if it comes to life?

If you're convinced your existing battery needs replacement, I can only say that you should be asking for a "deep cycle" battery not a starter battery. You can think of it like a deep cycle is capabale of long and slow delivery of electricity, while a starter battery wants to deliver a very short time of high output. Not sure what you mean by "heavy duty".

So if you were I. USA, I'd recommend a Lifeline 12V battery with a capacity any where from 100-250Ah, that might cost somewhere between $300-600. But first, make sure your existing battery cannot be revived.

I know this isn't much help. Respond if I can provide any additional help. I admit I don't truly understand your situation, usually sitting a battery for a few weeks won't kill it.

 

[Surly Biker]

Since everyone else is asleep. I'll offer a couple thoughts.  Are you sure that your existing battery is dead? By that I mean, if you have an alternator charger already in place, can you take it for a 30 minute drive and see if it comes to life?

If you're convinced your existing battery needs replacement, I can only say that you should be asking for a "deep cycle" battery not a starter battery. You can think of it like a deep cycle is capabale of long and slow delivery of electricity, while a starter battery wants to deliver a very short time of high output.  Not sure what you mean by "heavy duty".

So if you were I. USA, I'd recommend a Lifeline 12V battery with a capacity any where from 100-250Ah, that might cost somewhere between $300-600.   But first, make sure your existing battery cannot be revived.

I know this isn't much help. Respond if I can provide any additional help. I admit I don't truly understand your situation, usually sitting a battery for a few weeks won't kill it.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Let's start by defining a charge cycle.  A charge cycle is where you draw a certain amount of power from a battery, and then fully recharge it.  Hold that thought.

There are three types of batteries.  Engine starting batteries, RV/Marine batteries, and true deep cycle batteries.  Engine starting batteries are built with lots of THIN lead plates.  The idea is to get the maximum amount of square inches of lead in contact with the acid.  This provides the maximum cranking amps.  They are designed to start your vehicle - which may take them from 100% charge down to 95% charge.  The alternator then brings them back up to 100% while providing power to run all the electrical/electronic stuff on your car while you are driving.

Deep cycle batteries have much thicker lead plates.  They are designed to maximize the number of charge cycles you get from them.  They are designed to routinely be drawn from 100% down to 50% before being recharged.  Good ones will give you 1,000 or more such cycles.  If you started drawing engine starting batteries down to 50% before recharging, you'd be lucky to get 40 or 50 cycles out of them before the battery fails.

RV/Marine batteries are a hybrid between the two.  They were designed for use on boats, where they not only had to start the engine, they also had to power the anchor lights all night when the engine was off.  They are usually good for 400 to 500 charging cycles.

Bottom line here is that a "heavy duty"engine battery usually just means it has more cranking amps, NOT that it will stand up to more charging cycles than a standard engine battery.  For what you're trying to do, you should get an RV/Marine battery installed.

 

[Surly Biker]

Sorry, I reread your message and now I see that this is your starter battery that died.  I assume you and your mechanic are convinced if needs replacement.  Honestly, I think the answer your question depends on how you use the vehicle.  If you drive it every day, the alternator will be able to keep it charged.  If you sit for a couple days either the refrigerator running you are at risk for a dead starter battery.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would run a fridge, etc. on their starter and take the risk of being stranded .....

 

[SternWake]

The portable fridges have low voltage cutouts, and can be set to shut off before depleting the battery too far. Combine this programmed low voltage cut out, with the voltage drop on the cheesy ciggy plug receptacle and the wiring feeding it, and there is little danger to not being able to start the engine, just because of the fridge.

Of course the danger is then to the food inside, and the human wanting to eat it.

The Alternator can deliver high amps into a depleted battery, but a battery can only recharge so fast, with that 80% to 100% taking no less than 3.5 hours at ideal voltages.

The Vehicle does not allow ideal voltages.

So the alternator, will rarely, if ever, fully charge the battery, even if the drive is very long.

The battery is like a balloon, but when the battery and balloon is/are deflated, the balloon needs to be re inflated fully, or the skin gets crusty and hard to stretch, can't stretch as far to the same volume, and develops pin holes.

So to keep the Balloon/battery healthy, that balloon must be refilled to 100% regularly, keeping that skin supple.

And the alternator by itself, pretty much, can NEVER do this.

So the 'Heavy Duty battery' Stands little chance of lasting much longer than Wal-marts marine battery of the same group size, when the alternator is the only charging source.

A high$$ AGM battery Like one from Northstar or Odyssey, can be depleted lower, and still have a greater chance of starting the engine, but these batteries are not immune to the balloon analogy. they can charge faster to 80% charged, and will be somewhat faster than a marine battery in 80% to 100%, but not so much that it will make up for the nearly tripled price.

If you can squeeze in a Larger battery, you will have more useful capacity before that balloon skin refuses to stretch enough to be useful, but a high$$ AGM battery will not really last any longer than the cheapest marine battery, when the battery is never fully recharged, and that full recharge is not easy to accomplish Via the alternator.

The other issue is the voltage the Vehicle allows the alternator to hold. The voltage regulators are timid designed to only keep a slightly depleted starting battery, only slightly depleted. They fear overcharging so the voltages are timid

In 5.5 hours of driving, and holding a constant 14.5v, the 50% charged battery can get close to 100% charged.

But most vehicles drop the voltage to 13.8 or so after a period of time.

Getting a 60% charged battery to 100% at 13.8v would take about 24 hours of driving, or being plugged into the grid for 24 hours.

An Abused sulfated battery cannot be recharged fully at 13.8v, ever. Restoring some capacity/performance would require higher voltages, which the vehicle does not allow.

So this is why batteries in Vehicles that are deeply cycled and rely only on the alternator, never really last very long, and perform badly after the first few weeks of cycling and incomplete recharges.

Ask you mechanic to stuff in the biggest marine battery he can into the vehicle, and consider getting a jump starter along the lines of this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XQ9MGE/ref=psdc_318336011_t2_B000JFJLP6

And know how to use it.

Note that particular product is an example, not a personal recommendation/ endorsement

The jumper packs with compressors and other bells and whistles are OK, but the bells and whistles are low quality conveniences not to be relied upon for heavy usage.

 

[LeeRevell]

I have the same vehicle, as the Dodge Grand Caravan. I go through a new battery every one and a half to two years, with all the electrical and electronic stuff this van has. These batteries run smallish, and I wouldn't consider running a fridge off it. It simply is not designed for that useage.
My advice, worth the price you paid, is to install a proper "House" battery, and to get a small battery-maintainer charger to keep it topped off during longer periods of nondriving.

 

[Trebor English]

When I replaced the battery in my Windstar mini van I got a bigger battery than the original, the biggest that I thought would fit in the original spot. The standard size is also a reasonable choice. For a refrigerator, no.

Your original problem is 6 weeks with no charging. My Ford owner manual says that if you pull fuse #6 the van can sit 45 days, otherwise 2 weeks. That disables the remote unlock radio receiver and the AM FM radio memory but still leaves all the computers on in their low power mode. I got a $10 battery disconnect switch. When the battery is disconnected, after 2 months it is still good.

 

[LeeRevell]

Or, it takes two minutes to disconnect the battery under the hood.

 

[Kathleen]

When I replaced the battery in my Windstar mini van I got a bigger battery than the original, the biggest that I thought would fit in the original spot.  The standard size is also a reasonable choice.  For a refrigerator, no.

Your original problem is 6 weeks with no charging.  My Ford owner manual says that if you pull fuse #6 the van can sit 45 days, otherwise 2 weeks.  That disables the remote unlock radio receiver and the AM FM radio memory but still leaves all the computers on in their low power mode.  I got a $10 battery disconnect switch.  When the battery is disconnected, after 2 months it is still good.

The fuse info is extremely helpful. I'll see if my manual tells me which fuse to pull and ask my mechanic where it is. Because I can't squeeze it into my tiny parking stall where my sedan sits and I've been over the top busy, I have not had a lot of chance to use my vehicle. Have to go out of town to help a relative for 2 weeks soon. That means I either pull the fuse OR I leave a key with a trusted friend who can drive it every week for me. Probably a 10-15 mile run on the highway (65 mph speed limit) would keep it charged but very good to know re the fuse option. My 2005 has lots of computerized things: compass, trip mpg info, driver's seat, doors, and more which I have not had time to explore yet.

Everyone has said such informative things here, but as one quote says "You can't fix stupid" and some days I feel that's me. I wanted to do a setup like the CRVL Kia SEdona minivan video showed where you can run things off the battery, etc. with lots of extra components. I don't recall what kind of battery he used but he had an inverter and the other components that go with it.

So with those in place he was able to run the little size Dometic fridge that I want to use. I think he was driving quite a bit rather than boondocking for two weeks at a time so maybe that's what permitted him to keep that fridge going.

Hats off to all for answering. With the pricey battery arriving special delivery today I'm not sure what to do, as there were a number of different suggestions in response to my question.

If I could get the standard battery and set it up like the guy in the minivan video that's what I would do. There are plenty of other components I'll have to pay for to get the whole system running. If I don't need the higher price battery I'd rather skip it. If it will do the job I'll spring for it.

 

[Kathleen]

Sin e everyone else is asleep. I'll offer a couple thoughts.  Are you sure that your existing battery is dead? By that I mean, if you have an alternator charger already in place, can you take it for a 30 minute drive and see if it comes to life?

If you're convinced your existing battery needs replacement, I can only say that you should be asking for a "deep cycle" battery not a starter battery. You can think of it like a deep cycle is capabale of long and slow delivery of electricity, while a starter battery wants to deliver a very short time of high output.  Not sure what you mean by "heavy duty".

So if you were I. USA, I'd recommend a Lifeline 12V battery with a capacity any where from 100-250Ah, that might cost somewhere between $300-600.   But first, make sure your existing battery cannot be revived.

I know this isn't much help. Respond if I can provide any additional help. I admit I don't truly understand your situation, usually sitting a battery for a few weeks won't kill it.

Thx for taking the time to respond. I have to admit I've been so pressured to meet the needs of my two kids visiting from England that I didn't even ask my mechanic what kind of battery it was and how long it's good for: 5 years, lifetime....I will call him soon to find out. After a 25 charge for install and tax this "heavy duty" battery will be a little over 300 bucks.

I think all the computerized components were what killed it, as someone stated later in this thread. Does the deep cycle battery take the place of a regular starter battery??? Since this is an Interstate battery with a 5 year warranty and it's nearly at the end of the 5 years, I planned to replace it in the next 6 months. I've always had honest mechanics. They have told me "I cannot in good conscience replace your battery at this time." Once I listened to that and while in a dinky town on a holiday weekend the battery finally died. And the new one was a long wait and a high price under those circumstances. I don't want to repeat that so planned to get a new battery in the next few months anyway. Thanks again!

 

[Kathleen]

Let's start by defining a charge cycle.  A charge cycle is where you draw a certain amount of power from a battery, and then fully recharge it.  Hold that thought.

There are three types of batteries.  Engine starting batteries, RV/Marine batteries, and true deep cycle batteries.  Engine starting batteries are built with lots of THIN lead plates.  The idea is to get the maximum amount of square inches of lead in contact with the acid.  This provides the maximum cranking amps.  They are designed to start your vehicle - which may take them from 100% charge down to 95% charge.  The alternator then brings them back up to 100% while providing power to run all the electrical/electronic stuff on your car while you are driving.

Deep cycle batteries have much thicker lead plates.  They are designed to maximize the number of charge cycles you get from them.  They are designed to routinely be drawn from 100% down to 50% before being recharged.  Good ones will give you 1,000 or more such cycles.  If you started drawing engine starting batteries down to 50% before recharging, you'd be lucky to get 40 or 50 cycles out of them before the battery fails.

RV/Marine batteries are a hybrid between the two.  They were designed for use on boats, where they not only had to start the engine, they also had to power the anchor lights all night when the engine was off.  They are usually good for 400 to 500 charging cycles.

Bottom line here is that a "heavy duty"engine battery usually just means it has more cranking amps, NOT that it will stand up to more charging cycles than a standard engine battery.  For what you're trying to do, you should get an RV/Marine battery installed.

 

[Kathleen]

Thanks so much for the explanation. Very helpful to this neophyte. Are you saying then that I should have the Marine battery installed as my starter battery??? I'll have to ask if my mechanic can order one of those or learn if I need to go to the local RV place  to get one.

Thanks for taking the time to write that information!

 

[Kathleen]

Sorry, I reread your message and now I see that this is your starter battery that died.  I assume you and your mechanic are convinced if needs replacement.  Honestly, I think the answer your question depends on how you use the vehicle.  If you drive it every day, the alternator will be able to keep it charged.  If you sit for a couple days either the refrigerator running you are at risk for a dead starter battery.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would run a fridge, etc. on their starter and take the risk of being stranded .....

I DON'T want to run the risk of getting stranded. But I do want a small fridge as many in the van community are using. So for me it's a matter of understanding if I need just a standard starter battery with the under the hood extras attached to it and the inverter and batteries that maintain the power to run it. I wish the van battery died at a time when I did not have visitors champing at the bit to take them to remote locations. I have another vehicle to drive them but I wanted them to ride in the comfort of the van and so made a hasty and uninformed request to my mechanic to order the "heavy duty" battery which is arriving from out of town this morning. Not sure if I get charged a restocking fee for him to return that. He does not keep those things in stock.

Thanks for responding!

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Thanks so much for the explanation. Very helpful to this neophyte. Are you saying then that I should have the Marine battery installed as my starter battery??? I'll have to ask if my mechanic can order one of those or learn if I need to go to the local RV place  to get one.

Thanks for taking the time to write that information!

Substituting a Marine/RV battery for your engine starting battery, yes, that is my suggestion.

However, there is a downside.  Marine/RV batteries are usually only waranteed for 12 or 24 months, not the much longer period engine starting batteries are. 

Indeed, there is one guy here who recommends buying the engine starting battery with the longest warranty, from someone with stores everywhere, like Sears or Walmart, and letting them replace it under warranty when it fails in a year or two, which it almost certainly will if used as a deep cycle battery.

Don't know where your mechanic is getting his batteries from, but places like Sears and Walmart all sell the Marine/RV batteries.

 

[Kathleen]

The portable fridges have low voltage cutouts, and can be set to shut off before depleting the battery too far.  Combine this programmed low voltage cut out, with the voltage drop on the cheesy ciggy plug receptacle and the wiring feeding it, and there is little danger to not being able to start the engine, just because of the fridge.

Of course the danger is then to the food inside, and the human wanting to eat it.

The Alternator can deliver high amps into a depleted battery, but a battery can only recharge so fast, with that 80% to 100% taking no less than 3.5 hours at ideal voltages.

The Vehicle does not allow ideal voltages.

So the alternator, will rarely, if ever, fully charge the battery, even if the drive is very long.

The battery is like a balloon, but when the battery and balloon is/are deflated, the balloon needs to be re inflated fully, or the skin gets crusty and hard to stretch, can't stretch as far to the same volume, and develops pin holes.

So to keep the Balloon/battery healthy, that balloon must be refilled to 100% regularly, keeping that skin supple.

And the alternator by itself, pretty much, can NEVER do this.

So the 'Heavy Duty battery' Stands little chance of lasting much longer than Wal-marts marine battery of the same group size, when the alternator is the only charging source.

A high$$ AGM battery Like one from Northstar or Odyssey, can be depleted lower, and still have a greater chance of starting the engine, but these batteries are not immune to the balloon analogy.  they can charge faster to 80% charged, and will be somewhat faster than a marine battery in 80% to 100%, but not so much that it will make up for the nearly tripled price.

If you can squeeze in a Larger battery, you will have more useful capacity before that balloon skin refuses to stretch enough to be useful, but a high$$ AGM battery will not really last any longer than the cheapest marine battery, when the battery is never fully recharged, and that full recharge is not easy to accomplish Via the alternator.

The other issue is the voltage the Vehicle allows the alternator to hold. The voltage regulators are timid designed to only keep a slightly depleted starting battery, only slightly depleted.  They fear overcharging so the voltages are timid

In 5.5 hours of driving, and holding a constant 14.5v, the 50% charged battery can get close to 100% charged.

But most vehicles drop the voltage to 13.8 or so after a period of time.

Getting a 60% charged battery to 100% at 13.8v would take about 24 hours of driving, or being plugged into the grid for 24 hours.

An Abused sulfated battery cannot be recharged fully at 13.8v, ever. Restoring some capacity/performance would require higher voltages, which the vehicle does not allow.

So this is why batteries in Vehicles that are deeply cycled and rely only on the alternator, never really last very long, and perform badly after the first few weeks of cycling and incomplete recharges.

Ask you mechanic to stuff in the biggest marine battery he can into the vehicle, and consider getting a jump starter along the lines of this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XQ9MGE/ref=psdc_318336011_t2_B000JFJLP6

And know how to use it.

Note that particular product is an example, not a personal recommendation/ endorsement

The jumper packs with compressors and other bells and whistles are OK, but the bells and whistles are low quality conveniences not to be relied upon for heavy usage.

Wow, this is packed with information. REally good to know the fridges have shutoff mechanisms so you don't drain the battery. And yes, who wants to die of rotten food out in the boonies . I was considering using mine as a freezer, as I've seen in the CRVL videos, freezing a litre of water daily and putting that in my ice chest to keep food cold. Then you can keep high quality frozen food on board and have a space for fresh foods too, without the mess of melting ice.

I'm not thrilled with jumper cables any more. I lost a car (11 year old sedan) to the use of cables years ago. It fried my electrical harness when a friend hooked up the cables. The car worked perfectly the night before, would not start the next AM, so he hooked it up and jumped it. Didn't help. We both used cables all of our lives so unless he was nearly brain dead that morning I don't think he hooked them up wrong. But I lost a car and I hope never to have anyone other than a tow truck driver give me a jump again after that experience.

Before that, I always carried them with me. Several of you have suggested the marine battery so I guess it's time to call him and see what kind of "heavy duty" battery he ordered. Normally I try to learn as much as I can about what I need to do, but with my UK visitors here and many places to go, I just told my mechanic to order it and get it done. Thanks again for your thorough information!!!

 

[Kathleen]

I have the same vehicle, as the Dodge Grand Caravan.  I go through a new battery every one and a half to two years, with all the electrical and electronic stuff this van has.  These batteries run smallish, and I wouldn't consider running a fridge off it.  It simply is not designed for that useage.
My advice, worth the price you paid, is to install a proper "House" battery, and to get a small battery-maintainer charger to keep it topped off during longer periods of nondriving.

Hmmm, a small battery-maintainer charger to keep it topped off...sounds excellent and I don't think anyone else mentioned this. Where would I get such a beast? :-/ Standard auto supply or online order?

I feel like I've landed on a foreign planet where the residents are extremely helpful and friendly but I don't speak their language!!! :s Why did I not get the mechanical gene???? I can do art work up the wazoo, write grants for large sums of money, start major public works projects to benefit the community, organize events til the cows come home, but just say "mechanical" and I'm already lost!! :angel:  Thanks for telling me re this gadget.

 

[Kathleen]

Substituting a Marine/RV battery for your engine starting battery, yes, that is my suggestion.

However, there is a downside.  Marine/RV batteries are usually only waranteed for 12 or 24 months, not the much longer period engine starting batteries are. 

Indeed, there is one guy here who recommends buying the engine starting battery with the longest warranty, from someone with stores everywhere, like Sears or Walmart, and letting them replace it under warranty when it fails in a year or two, which it almost certainly will if used as a deep cycle battery.

Don't know where your mechanic is getting his batteries from, but places like Sears and Walmart all sell the Marine/RV batteries.

Hmmm, in that case I could cancel the battery ordered, buy the one locally that you recommended and have my other less expensive but equally competent mechanic do the install. I don't care if it's simple, I want someone else to do it right. He charges less per hour and the install won't cost much. Thanks for the tip re the warranty on a marine/rv battery and getting them replaced.

 

[LeeRevell]

In the years I have owned my minivan, I have tried all levels, from "silver" to "platinum", different warrenty year lengths, different manufacturers. I don't believe it makes any difference. A starting battery is a starting battery, period.
Switching to a Marine battery may give some advantage, but you will still risk killing it with a fridge.
My take..... use the correct battery for the intended use.
But we each make our own choices.

 

[John61CT]

There are many batteries now designed for deep cycling that are also perfectly capable delivering High cranking currents. In fact even a golf cart style deep cycling setup if size large enough will not have any problem reliable starting your engine. What a lot of people do is use the Yellowtop Optima product as a solid compromise between the two.

If you plan to ever set up a house bank for running your accessories comma you want your starter battery to be at least the same general type, for example AGM or unsealed deep cycle , choose one technology and stick to it for everything that is running off the same charging cycle.

There certainly are ways 2 keep two unlike sets of batteries charged from the one source, but they are more complex and expensive.

Other than the hybrid type like The Optimist, if you want to go for true deep cycle batteries do not go to Consumer Outlets like Sears or Walmart, they are a specialist product line and lot more expensive.

Beware that there are tons of batteries labeled deep cycle and so-called Marine that are really just overpriced Automotive starter batteries and the design for big loads and deep drawing down, they will just burn out very quickly.

Another consideration is to make sure that you are keeping your battery topped up 200% which does require many hours of charging. If you mostly do short trips , under a few hours per day, then you should use house current on an external charger at least once a week, or add solar panels, to keep an expensive battery in good condition to last for years.