Heating using vehicle heater, engine cycling.

[Michaelflat1]

Idea one [heated vehicle]:

Just a concept I came up with..

So for heating to work in a car we need two things:


1) Engine up to temperature
2) Electricity to power the fan
3) Kinetic energy to power the water pump

So to remedy this (for where you don't have the space for a heater):

Use an electric water pump, these can be fitted to cars aftermarket i believe.
As for electricity, try a high capacity battery (max out your battery space under the hood)
As for engine heat, that will naturally come, here is my electronic approach.

So you pull up to your "campsite" with a nice warmed up engine and charged battery, perfect

Here are the steps that need to happen to make this work.

You then use REST heating [water pump on and fan] for 30 minutes, or until thermostat satisified or battery drain.
Engine comes on to replenish battery (using alternator) and in the process it's waste heat is rejected back into the coolant.
Once battery is charged or water is up to temperature (let's use a lower temperature, like 60-70c instead of 90c) then it shuts off the engine and the cycle repeats to maintain temperature (or you use a timer). 

This could be accomplished using multiple relays and etc (to start the car etc.) and a temperature sensor to make this happen on a cycle.

So suppose I use an arduino to make this all happen, it could actually work pretty cool, as long as you aren't phased by a starting engine.

Pros:
Nice warm vehicle at all times
Uses less petrol than having the engine on all the night! (eek!)
You can use this on demand any-time (waiting in a car park for someone, enjoy 30 mins of heating  )

Cons:
Still relies on engine, so is costly for petrol
Extra wear and tear on alternator/starter motor
Isn't a mr buddy just a better option
And also is expensive to implement (a mr buddy is $80, a water pump is $60-70 not factoring in labour etc.)
Modern cars do this anyway (esp. prius) with ISS (IDLE STOP START)

I don't think i have ever seen it before, maybe for a reason  but new cars with idle-stop-start do this automatically (especially those with REST heating/FBH operation). And so it might be a heck of a lot easier to just get a car that does this anyway.  

This is just kind of a guide how to retro fit it.

I have a 2007 Honda Jazz and maybe will put a bed in it, so a heater would be nice, but where i live (UK) it hardly gets below freezing so all that's needed is a thick sleeping blanket.

Idea two [electric blanket]:
Use seated heaters (heated seats  )
On ebay there are some nice after market heated seat pads that you can put under your bum to stay warm. Maybe putting one of those under your bed would heat it up nicely. But some people have issues with breathing in cold air.
This is a fully electric solution so it might use more electricity than option above (but less fuel).
Will Prowse on YouTube had this idea, (where i nabbed it from  )

The electricity demand will be higher however, and it will be the only need to cut in the engine, so maybe you would run it off solar? Might require more solar than feasible on a vehicle roof.

 

[Michaelflat1]

I can't find how to edit the post but i did some calculations...

For heating, if the car were to have the engine idling for 12 hours straight (eek!) that would burn 0.5 litres/hour so around 6 litres of fuel in total (Honda Jazz 2007). This in my country (UK) would cost around £7-8 which is around $10 i suppose. Expensive!

If i halve the idle time then it could definetly cut the cost down in winter!

Do note that this method can also be programmed to work in summer, like this:
You pull up and turn on this feature.
The engine shuts off and the vents stay on (fan is still on, fresh air mode).
When the engine comes on to recharge the battery (or satisfy thermostat), air should be set to recirculation and air conditioning on (to reduce time it take to cool off). Then the cycle repeats.
However in really hot ambient temperatures you might wan't to forgo the ventilation cycle to keep the temperature down.

To make it simpler to understand i will include a scenario here..
Wakeups will be factored in and i will outline the process..


So, here goes:
It's a warm summers night (not meatloaf) and it's say 25c outside. You need A/C overnight to not wake up hot.
The car is cool at say 21c. You set the thermostat to 23c so the engine shuts off and the fans are on fresh air mode.
Temperature rises to 24c and the engine comes on, it charges the battery and runs A/C compressor [temp. wakeup]
Temperature falls to 21c, engine stops and vents come on.
[if im honest 25c i would just roll the windows down]

Higher temperature scenario:
It's 30c outside. AC is necessary.
Car is a nice cool 21c. fresh air is limited to save fuel.
Initialise timer
Temperature rises to 24c, engine comes on charging battery and running A/C compressor
Temperature falls to 21c, engine comes off and so do fans, there will not be an energy wakeup (hopefully)

cycle repeats for a while until the timer decides to refresh the air in the car.
Then for the next 2 cycles it runs like the cooler ambient temperature scenario, air vents are enabled for fresh air.
Then back to before.


Heating mode...

Nice warm car, warm engine.
You start the program and this happens:
Gradual temperature drop (or just keeps it same, unsure)
So the car's engine goes off and the water pump and blower fan comes on, until battery drained or thermostat satisfied.
On my car the heater doens't work below 50c coolant temperature, so if the coolant drops below this then that would be a coolant temperature wakeup.

So here goes, it's cold out and the car is cooling down, the car is off and all is dark and cold. The thermostat comes on and because coolant temperature is below threshold so does the car engine, until coolant reaches operating temperature (about 70-80c) and the engine goes off and the water pump and fan are still on heating. If the thermostat shuts off the heater then that is turned off. If heat is required again then the waterpump and fan are turned on again. If the coolant drops below 50c then the engine will come on. If the battery drops then the engine will come on, and a side affect will be that it warms up the car.

 

[user 423]

That is all doable but I would prefer (in a van anyway) a variation on an Auxiliary Power Unit like the ones truckers use. There are small,lightweight liquid-cooled motorcycle or generator engines (with electric start) that could be set up to circulate hot water to a heater inside.

Less fuel used and no wear/tear on your vehicle. Also less chance of being asphyxiated due to an exhaust leak.

Mounted on a cargo carrier at the back of the van it could be housed in an enclosure to minimize noise.

 

[highdesertranger]

a couple of things,

electric water pumps are nowhere near as reliable as mechanical water pumps.

electric water pumps have a high amp draw. they are meant to run when the engine is running.

factory fans have a high amp draw. they are meant to run when the engine is running.

you are going to kill your battery. then you need to recharge it. it's going to take 6-8 hours of highway driving to recharge it. highdesertranger

 

[Netter]

I can't find how to edit the post but i did some calculations...

How about a small generator running outside and having a small ceramic heater in the inside?

 

[John61CT]

Some of these are good ideas for hybrids, especially Prius.

For regular ICE vehicles, not at all practical.

 

[user 423]

How about a small generator running outside and having a small ceramic heater in the inside?

And charge your batteries at the same.

 

[highdesertranger]

Michael you only have 15 minutes to edit your post. highdesertranger

 

[tx2sturgis]

Engines that are idled (and not designed to do so) for long periods of time (compared to driving) tend to pollute their own oil with un-burned fuel...its called cylinder wash-down. This also accelerates wear and tear on all the components of the engine, due to the engine oil containing unburned fuel.

Downstream, the lower exhaust temperatures cause inefficient catalytic converter operation and higher emissions and short converter life.

And a host of other issues, including how in-efficient it is to run an engine and burn higher amounts of taxed road-fuel, compared to the amount of 'heat' you get.

I'll pass.

Propane heating is relatively cheap, mostly safe, well-proven, and does not damage the engine.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Engines that are idled (and not designed to do so) for long periods of time (compared to driving) tend to pollute their own oil with un-burned fuel...its called cylinder wash-down. This also accelerates wear and tear on all the components of the engine, due to the engine oil containing unburned fuel.

Downstream, the lower exhaust temperatures cause inefficient catalytic converter operation and higher emissions and short converter life.

While you are 100% correct, these issues have been greatly reduced via multi-port fuel injection. 

Cylinder-wash-down was more a carburetor-era concern and had even more to do with raw fuel down the throat (by product of the choke) during repeated cold start-ups.


Why not try to make the problem go away all together?

If you sleep with three sleeping bags, one under you, one for a cover...and the third for your dog and you, pulled right over your head...you can sleep toasty in -5 temperatures.

Try it.

Otherwise, one of these mounted in the rear corner of the vehicle would be my remedy.
https://www.ebay.com/p/5000w-Air-Di...m=253372516069&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Not sure why more vandwellers don't use these.
They are a lot safer than propane and they do wonders in tractor trailer sleepers, using very very little battery.
A half gallon of diesel or thin cooking oil will heat for a very long time.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I had not seen the diesel bunk heaters for that low price before...makes me wonder about safety and quality.

However, I have posted my thoughts on bunk heaters for vans many times and would hate to repeat myself to the annoyance of the members here.

Except John61CT....he's fun to mess with. 

 

[JD GUMBEE]

I had not seen the diesel bunk heaters for that low price before...makes me wonder about safety and quality.

John61CT....he's fun to mess with. 

True on the quality. By design though, there is no contact between combustion chamber and inside air. (On mine anyway, this one looks like it is the same way.)
Of course, the worst it could do is drip diesel...which, as you know, needs to be REALLY hot or atomized to burn.

I did not realize you had mentioned them before.
The gasoline models make me nervous...and I get that three different fuels in a camper could be a PITA, but for a vandweller in need of heat, there truly is no better solution out there. A 5 gallon can of #2 is no more difficult than a 20LB propane tank. Nevermind the heat you get from one of those, compared to catalytic propane heat.

(I remember the "turbo-whine" of mine spooling up when I would first get into my truck after home time. I only drove OTR for three years after being retired...the DOT and rip-off brokers irritated me so much, I sold it and walked away...but I loved being on the road and living in my truck. Was not popular with Mrs G though. She would not come with me full time. (Grand-baby considerations.)

Not sure about John61CT, but what's written in the past, can stay in the past. The past is Vegas...screw Switzerland LOL

 

[tx2sturgis]

I did not realize you had mentioned them before.

Yeah the subject has come up here many times in threads about them, but thread drift restrictions regarding this topic generally mean we will get 'thumped' for drifting too far.

Here are a few relevant threads:

https://vanlivingforum.com/search/?...cb987cca28f1c39b41&sortby=lastpost&order=desc

 

[highdesertranger]

does anybody have any experience with that heater or knows someone who does. that's dirt cheap compared to others. I am highly suspicious of it, when something from China hits the market at 10% of the going price my first thought is junk. but it might turn out to be a decent unit. highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

Especially when Planar is a Russian company.

Same feeling I get when I see Espat or Webasto sold from Russia or China.

But hey if you're set up to be able to start testing it soon as it comes in, eBay's etc guarantees...

 

[JD GUMBEE]

when something from China hits the market at 10% of the going price my first thought is junk.  but it might turn out to be a decent unit.  highdesertranger

10%??
You could always get an air to air Espar for around 5-700 dollars if you knew who to buy it from.

 

[highdesertranger]

so who's that? is it a secret? highdesertranger

 

[JD GUMBEE]

so who's that?  is it a secret?  highdesertranger

There are name brand heaters listed right on ebay with pricing very close to the range I quoted.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eberspache...ash=item1c99ba9514:g:XX4AAOSwwvBZmx~V&vxp=mtr
It's not a secret, but it would take me a few phone calls to one of the wholesalers my leasing outfits do business with. When they outfit thousands of trucks a year, they get better deals than retail.
If you really want one, let me know and I will find out an exact price.

Either way, the Chinese heater in the link is not "10% of the going price" of others as you stated. (That would make bunk heaters in the $2300 range, according to my math.)


The guy in Maine says there are three different types in his fleet.
When he looked at the paperwork on the one they have on the shelf, it (LOL) does not even have a name listed on it.
According to him, this has become more and more common over the last 10 years. Direct Chinese generic imports.

According to him, it is a crap-shoot as to which one is "the best."

A few things he did say:

They have a 5-7 year life cycle on the buses.
The heaters run every day, for 5-12 hours a day depending on what the buses are used for.
Problems are extremely rare, but most often, it is the feed filter/screen clogging up from dirty fuel or gelled fuel.
The ignition device can burn out, but they are easy to swap and not expensive.
They have only had two in the last ten years or so that have failed without being physically damaged. One was older, the other popped the circuit board and was nearly as much to repair as replace.
Other than that, the "injector" can become dirty, but he has yet to see one wear out.

Regardless of taking a chance on the china-direct unit or not, this style of heater is a lot smaller than the buddy heaters and in my mind, MUCH safer to leave running through the night as one sleeps.
The 12 volt load is minimal and the basic design has been safely heating vehicles since the 60's.
Not sure why more RV people don't use them.

 

[highdesertranger]

it's not for me it's for a couple I know that's doing a sprinter conversion. when I looked into them a few years ago the were 2k. also the couple said they were about 2k. I don't know that I would trust an ebay add for something like that. after doing a search is see them from about 700-2k so I will pass the info along. highdesertranger