Has anyone heard of Northstar AGM batteries?

[BigT]

Specifically the "Northstar NSB AGM 27F?  


The description makes it sound like it's designed to go under the hood as a starter battery.  Is that the right design for a solar-charged house battery?
It's also got the wrong terminals, but I imagine that can be changed when ordering.  
Kind of pricey too ($338.99 on-line).  

Also not sure what the difference is between the "10 & 20 hour rate" 91Ah/88Ah.

c[font='Source Sans Pro', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]NorthStar Ultra High Performance Batteries deliver superior cranking, unrivaled cycling, faster recharge and minimal maintenance.

Your car is more than just transportation. Whether you drive a luxury SUV, a classic muscle car or an off roader, NorthStar has the ideal battery to keep you up and running. If you need the best battery, you need a NorthStar.
[/font]

• AGM Technology delivers exceptional CCA ratings and reserve capacity cycling
  
• Quick starting every time with up to 2,150 pulse amps
  
• Cycles over 400 times to 80% depth of discharge
  
• Faster recharge than conventional batteries
  
• Proudly made in the USA at our state-of-the-art battery plant
  
• Housed in advanced plastics for durability, performance and heat resistance
  
• Approved for installation on its side
  
• No water levels to check or terminals to clean
  
• Ideally suited for new vehicles that use Start Stop technology
  
• OEM fit is ensured as all NorthStar batteries are built to exact BCI standards
  
• Approved as non-hazardous cargo for ground, sea,and air transport

[font='Source Sans Pro', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Product Name
NSB-AGM-27F
BCI Group Number
27F
Height with Terminal
8.74 in
Width
6.77 in
Length
12.4 in
Weight
68 lbs
Terminal Configuration
SAE
Pulse Cranking Amps
1,750 A
CA/MCA at 32°F
1,080 A
CCA at 0°F
930 A
CCA at -20°F
650 A
Reserve Capacity
195 min
Capacity 20 Hour Rate
91 Ah
Capacity 10 Hour Rate
88 Ah
Internal Resistance
2.6 mΩ
Short Circuit Current
5,000 A
Warranty
4 years full[/font]

 

[akrvbob]

It's not what you want for a solar power battery. Plus it is way overpriced!
Bob

 

[SternWake]

It's not what you want for a solar power battery. Plus it is way overpriced!
Bob

100% Agree.

And I say this as an owner of a NS AGM-27.  The marine version with both automotive posts and threaded studs

It is an awesome battery though.  It has both Hi CCA ratings and the ability to be deeply cycled.  When Fully charged it has a resting open circuit voltage or 13.06.  It sat for 3 weeks  over the new year unused, uncharged, connected only to my engine computer, and was 13.06v when I got back.

This battery, especially when spanking new, was able to crank my engine faster than 2 fully charged marine batteries  in parallel that were 1300CCA together.

It is now 18 months old with about 45 to 60 deep cycles on it, and that engine cranking violence has diminished somewhat but still is impressive.

When deeply cycled this battery requires at least 25 amps of current be applied unitil 14.46volts is reached at 77f.  14.46v is then to be held until it requires 0.4 amps or less to be held at 14.46.  This is the Ideal recharge regimen.

I cycled it for a week when newer, and recharged only by solar, and held at 14.6 for 1 to 4 hours a day, and it was obvious on cycle 7 that voltage was not holding as high as it was on day one. All batteries will exhibit this to some degree, but the downslope was much steeper with this particular AGM

On Day 8 I applied 25 amps in the morning, and then that night performance was restored.   Voltage held as high and even a smidge higher than cycle number 1.

 Now, I never plan on cycling this battery unless I have adequate drive time or am able to plug into the grid, and let my 40 amp  adjustable voltage charger loose on it.  I make sure it is fully charged always.  I try to not even cycle it shallowly.  About every 3 to 4 weeks I deep cycle it when I give my flooded battery an EQ charge@16v followed by and an all night float at 13.35v, and I hit The NS AGM with my 40 amp charger first thing in the morning(In combination with whatever my solar can make), and return it to engine starting duty when fully charged.  I've got 3 manual switches which makes this process simple as can be.

 Northstar and Odyssey AGM batteries do not make good 'solar only' batteries.   The asterix is, is if one had the ability to high amp recharge it every so many cycles, and the more amps the better.  Odyssey says 40 amps for their 100 AH AGM.  That is like a 4 to 1 watt to AH ratio, minimum.

Now I see on your other thread you can get this battery for 150$.  If new(ish), and in good condition, it will likely give you good service, even if solar only recharged. Cycles per dollar will be a good value, at 150$.  It is That if one is going to spend 340$ on an AGM battery, then one best make sure they can meet its needs, otherwise they will not get their moneys worth.  The very price of these batteries instills a false confidence. The fact is they will not perform well in a deep cycle low and slow solar only recharge.  They were never designed for it.

Top dog AGM is Lifeline, but they recommend 20 amps per 100AH of capacity, but list no maximum amperage, well 345amps or something unachieveably crazy.

Deka make an 'Intimidator' AGM. 

Copy and paste this into your browser:

Deka 8A27M Marine AGM Battery Group Size 27 Dual Purpose Marine Deep Cycle Application


 One can get these relabelled as duracells at costco, last I heard, for a very reasonable price  These have a 30 amp maximum per 100AH capacity. The Full rivers also place a limit on maximum amps, as well as some other Asian constructed AGM's and the AGM batteries sold on Amazon as wheelchair batteries vmaxx and UniversalBattery. They too have maximum amperages listed and they are in the 30% range.

I believe these make a better 'solar only' battery, not only for their lesser price, but this max amperage clause.  If one wires it to their alternator, one needs to use 6 or 8 awg and no thicker to actually limit what the battery can ask for.  If one buys a 'plug in' charger, It cannot exceed the 30% rate. But it should be close to that 30% number.  All of this requirements require less $$ to set up. The battery should give good to very good cycle life of 400 to 600 cycles to 50% Depth of Discharge.  MOre cycles are possible with shallower discharges, but if you never go below 85% depth of discharge, you bought more battery capacity than you need. This gives some people the warm and fuzzies.  It shouldn't.

I have no personal experience with Deka AGM's, but East Penn/Deka make good batteries.  These AGMS do not have the extreme CCA ratings of Odyssey or Northstar, nor the super low self discharge, nor the ability to accept huge amperages when depleted, but by and large none of this is required in Vandwelling.  The Lifeline AGM's do not have high CCA ratings, but they do have the thickest positive plates which is the hallmark of a battery designed around deep cycle service.

So one can make the high recharge rate AGM's work and work well, if they can occassionally ( every 7 to 10 cycles minimum) meet that high amp recharge rate, and a well wired alternator and an hour of driving can meet this.  In combo with Solar to minimize depth of discharge and returning amp hours used one will have a nice cyctem, but those who do not want to use the alternator and cannot plug into high amp recharge will not get good service from these high amp high$$ AGM's.

All batteries perform best when regularly fully charged.  AGMs seem to need this more so than flooded batteries.  Meet their needs and they are great batteries.  Expecting that  their price imbues magical resistance to improper charging, and you will weep for your lost dollars.

 

[BigT]

Wow, that's a lot of information to absorb! Thanks! I think I'm going to have to read that twice.

The $150 price is for new with the battery on clearance. Apparently Northstar wants to move this particular model .
I have a friend (more of an acquaintance) who's been in the battery business for 30 years who can get me deals (sometimes).
Problem is, he's giving me information and recommendations that nobody else is, like how this Northstar is perfect for my needs: something about how the plates are thinner, pure lead, and contain no calcium.

"The battery I've offered you is a pure lead design. Pure lead recharges faster than typical calcium plate AGM batteries. They are also a thin plate design which gives longer life."

I'll see what sort of price he can offer on the Intimidator 8A27M. It looks like it's a 92 Ah AGM. Will my 160 Watt panel be enough to recharge it sufficiently?

Bob. Why don't *you* like the Northstar? btw... Price isn't a huge issue. I'd just like to keep the cost of the CC below $150, if possible. I have problem getting a MPPT controller.

 

[akrvbob]

It's clearly not a deep cycle battery, at best it's a marine hybrid and for that price you should get a top quality deep cycle battery. That's what you want for solar power

However, you didn't say you could get it for $150 and at that price I would very seriously consider it even if it is a marine.
Bob

 

[SternWake]

Does the Northstar he is trying to sell have a blue case top?  These are  a few years old, and  current Northstars are all grey.  Still, for that price, if they recharged it every 6 months, it should still give good service.  I doubt they actually recharge old batteries that have been on the shelf for too long.


The Thin Plate Pure Lead techology is also touted by Odyssey, and goes against the 'thicker plates for deep cycle duty' mindset.  Their plate paste must be a lot denser and more durable, and when I spoke at length with an Odyssey engineer he claimed it was this reason why the high amp recharges were required when deeply cycled, and that lower amps for longer would just never penetrate the dense plates or return the battery to maximum energy density.  The guy at Odyssey told me outright NOT to use their group31  battery with 200 watts of solar, and that I'd get better service and lifespan  from a flooded battery for much less money.

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"The battery I've offered you is a pure lead design. Pure lead recharges faster than typical calcium plate AGM batteries. They are also a thin plate design which gives longer life." [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]This is salesman speak.  AGMs can indeed charge faster, if one has the higher amp charging sources to take advantage of this high amp acceptance.  This is not a factor with low and slow solar, and actually detrimental as AGMS do not enjoy the low and slow.  They like a quenching when depleted.  Solar cannot quench.  They do not want a garden hose to put out their fire, they want a firehose.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]It is also the plate paste material on those thin plates where all the technology resides.  Starting batteries have lots of thin plates for maximum surface area to deliver high cranking amps.  The Odyssey and Northstar batteries somehow have found a way to make thin plates still durable  when deeply cycled, and yield high CCA ratings.  Which is an Oxymoron in the deep cycle battery world.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]These TPPL batteries are basically a dual purpose design.  It is like an Ultra Marine battery.  Super high CCA and resistance to deep cycling, but the cost is they they need a high amp recharge when deeply cycled.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The Deka's CCA ratings are still higher than a flooded battery of the same size.  Almost all AGM's have higher CCA ratings than a similarly sized  flooded battery, the exception being Lifeline that does have the thickest plates in the AGM world.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The Deka intimidator is not in the same league as a Northstar, but it should do better on a Solar only recharge regimen.  I'd fear the Northstar being sold for 150$.  It has likely been sitting on the shelf for years for them to try and move it at that price.  They want it gone.  It might have never been out into use, and to a salesman that means they can call it new, but it is not new, simply unused, and this is not the same thing to a battery, even to a quality AGM battery that has low self discharge.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]These batteries in a Float only application are said to last 8 to 12 years.  The one the salesman is pushing you towards might have been sitting on the shelf for 3 years, and not on a float charge at the recommended 13.6v.  If the Northstar has a BlueTop, I'd probably avoid it, and if the salesman claims they put their older batteries on a charger every so often, I'd have a hard time believing them.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]My local battery distributor, whom I will no longer do business with, has salesman who know nothing about their products.  I had bought relabelled Crown battery assured it was their deep cycle battery, not a Marine battery.  Crown makes a group 31 starting battery, a 31 marine battery and a psuedo deep cycle 31.  The battery I got was relabelled as a deep cycle, yet when I did a capacity test on it it failed miserably.  When I weighed it it was 10 LBs lighter than the psuedo deep cycle battery.  They sold a marine battery as a deep cycle battery.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I was Livid.  I returned it, but the salesman just kept repeating that 'a marine battery is a deep cycle battery.  Look at the sticker!'  I got the manager and he tried the same tactics for 30 seconds before realizing I was not the average battery user who believes what a salesmans says.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'd even spoken with somebody at Crown battery, who knew the manager at the distributor, and was rather surprised that they were slapping a deep cycle sticker on the marine battery, yet still tried to persuade me they were not crooks.  If I wanted a Marine battery I would have gone to wally world and bought their group 29 for 40$ less.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]In the end it comes down to cycles per $.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]At that point I got a US Battery Group 31, and pulled out a bathroom scale and weighed it, and in came in as spec'd.  It has proven to be an OK pseudo deep cycle battery, but it requires high voltages for longer on a daily basis (top charging) to have respectable performance.  Kind of wasteful.  It is about done for.  i expect failure soon closing in on 500 cycles, which is all that can really be expected when deep cycling a psuedo deep cycle 12v battery in the 24/27/31 group sizes that was recharged properly.   A marine battery is less likely to go this long.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]So my experience is that salesmen know very little about the product they sell, and are hoping the customer is even more ignorant than themselves.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I am not sure the Deka 27 will be better than the older 150$ Northstar in a solar only recharge.  You will likely have to pay more for the Deka.  if both batteries were spanking new you'd get better cycles per dollar on the Deka via solar only.  Since the NS is only 150 this evens the playing field.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you were to hook the NS to charge via the alternator and meet the high amp  'quenching' recharge  requirement, then it would outperform the Deka.  The Deka listing a 30% maximum rate, in my mind, makes it a better battery for low and slow solar, but I have no proof if this.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you are building a battery box to contain a 27, build it just a little bit bigger(~ 1 inch longer)  to be able to fit the group31 instead, just in case you can get a good deal on one of those in the future. The 31's will give you a few more AH before falling below 50%.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]160 watts of solar for a 90AH Deka should be adequate, on a sunny day.[/font]

 

[BigT]

.  Price isn't a huge issue.  I'd just like to keep the cost of the CC below $150, if possible.  I have problem getting a MPPT controller.

btw, that should have read "I have no problem getting a MPPT controller."  


It sounds like a 30A CC can only handle 300 Watts of solar, a 20 Amp ~ 200 Watts of solar, and so on.  I was hoping to find a Renogy 30A, but they don't seem to make one.  Guess I'll go with another brand. 


SternWake.  I haven't read your latest reply yet.  Have to go back to work.  I'll read it tonight.  
I did see the line about "salesman speak" and thought the same thing.  :s  

 

[BigT]

 Wonderful.  I had written a reply to this, but when I tried to post it, 95% of it didn't show up.  (Great!)    Now I can't get it back!  

I'll post my questions later when I stop beating my head against my desk.  


Northstar and Odyssey AGM batteries do not make good 'solar only' batteries.   The asterix is, is if one had the ability to high amp recharge it every so many cycles, and the more amps the better.  Odyssey says 40 amps for their 100 AH AGM.  That is like a 4 to 1 watt to AH ratio, minimum.

Now I see on your other thread you can get this battery for 150$.  If new(ish), and in good condition, it will likely give you good service, even if solar only recharged. Cycles per dollar will be a good value, at 150$.  It is That if one is going to spend 340$ on an AGM battery, then one best make sure they can meet its needs, otherwise they will not get their moneys worth.

One can get these relabelled as duracells at costco, last I heard, for a very reasonable price  These have a 30 amp maximum per 100AH capacity. The Full rivers also place a limit on maximum amps, as well as some other Asian constructed AGM's and the AGM batteries sold on Amazon as wheelchair batteries vmaxx and UniversalBattery. They too have maximum amperages listed and they are in the 30% range.

These AGMS do not have the extreme CCA ratings of Odyssey or Northstar, nor the super low self discharge, nor the ability to accept huge amperages when depleted, but by and large none of this is required in Vandwelling.  

So one can make the high recharge rate AGM's work and work well, if they can occassionally ( every 7 to 10 cycles minimum) meet that high amp recharge rate, and a well wired alternator and an hour of driving can meet this.  In combo with Solar to minimize depth of discharge and returning amp hours used one will have a nice cyctem, but those who do not want to use the alternator and cannot plug into high amp recharge will not get good service from these high amp high$$ AGM's.

All batteries perform best when regularly fully charged.  AGMs seem to need this more so than flooded batteries. 
[/quote]

 

[BigT]

 Wonderful.  I had written a reply to this, but when I tried to post it, 95% of it didn't show up.  (Great!)    Now I can't get it back!  

I'll post my questions later when I stop beating my head against my desk.  


Northstar and Odyssey AGM batteries do not make good 'solar only' batteries.   The asterix is, is if one had the ability to high amp recharge it every so many cycles, and the more amps the better.  Odyssey says 40 amps for their 100 AH AGM.  That is like a 4 to 1 watt to AH ratio, minimum.

Now I see on your other thread you can get this battery for 150$.  If new(ish), and in good condition, it will likely give you good service, even if solar only recharged. Cycles per dollar will be a good value, at 150$.  It is That if one is going to spend 340$ on an AGM battery, then one best make sure they can meet its needs, otherwise they will not get their moneys worth.

One can get these relabelled as duracells at costco, last I heard, for a very reasonable price  These have a 30 amp maximum per 100AH capacity. The Full rivers also place a limit on maximum amps, as well as some other Asian constructed AGM's and the AGM batteries sold on Amazon as wheelchair batteries vmaxx and UniversalBattery. They too have maximum amperages listed and they are in the 30% range.

These AGMS do not have the extreme CCA ratings of Odyssey or Northstar, nor the super low self discharge, nor the ability to accept huge amperages when depleted, but by and large none of this is required in Vandwelling.  

So one can make the high recharge rate AGM's work and work well, if they can occassionally ( every 7 to 10 cycles minimum) meet that high amp recharge rate, and a well wired alternator and an hour of driving can meet this.  In combo with Solar to minimize depth of discharge and returning amp hours used one will have a nice cyctem, but those who do not want to use the alternator and cannot plug into high amp recharge will not get good service from these high amp high$$ AGM's.

All batteries perform best when regularly fully charged.  AGMs seem to need this more so than flooded batteries. 

[/quote]


OK, let's try this again.     Here's what I tried to post earlier.  

When you say "these have 30 Amp maximum per 100 AH capacity", are you talking about the initial charge rate required, or the amount of Amps/Ah you can safely use per cycle, or something else all together?  

To be honest, I hope not to draw much power from my battery, ever.  The plan is to only run my CPAP (.35A to 1.5A +/- .75A), a 12V fan (Low/Med/Hi ~ 1.25A/2.25A/3.0A) and a 12V LED reading light or two (.26A ea).  Even if I ran the CPAP, fan, and one of the LED lights on their highest settings, that would be less than 5.26A per hour or 40 +/- Ah in an 8 hour period.  
A more likely scenario would be running just the fan on low @ 1.25A (during hot summer nights), and the CPAP.  This would drop the usage closer to 12 - 15Ah per night.  CPAP alone ~ 2.8 - 12Ah on a 92Ah AGM.  That would be well below 20% of capacity.  

Would that be a low enough cycle draw for the 160 Watt panel to keep up, or would I still need to plug the AGM into a 120V charger once in a while?  
I'm not actually living in my van, I just use it for camping and naps at work during my 6hr split, so I likely wouldn't be using it on a regular basis for extended periods of time.  Also, since I still live in an apartment, a 120V plug-in charger would be a doable option.  

I sent an email to my "Salesman"/acquaintance, asking about the color of the battery cap on the Northstar.  
I've read about the blue ones being the older design.  Still, as you say, for $150 that could be a lot of bang for my buck.  

 

[SternWake]

Ideally, A deeply cycled AGM should get high amperages, but solar does not fit these 'recommended' profiles of instant high amperage.

Your intended usage will be cycling the battery 50% or more when peukert is factored in, and Ideally you'd have a 25 amp charger for the Deka and a larger charger for the Northstar.  If you were doing this every day for 2 weeks straight then the capacity loss from not getting a high amp recharge would become obvious, if you had been watching a voltmeter and noting the voltage on Cpap shut down every morning while it is still under load.

Since you get to go home and plug in and recharge, the 160 watts of Solar and a Sunny day should keep the battery happy enough during your outings.  If you 24/7/365'd the battery would not be that happy with that solar as its only recharge source.  A well wired alternator in addition to that solar makes the battery happier, but if you do not need 24/7/365, you can get away with less.

The last discharge cycle before going home,  it would be much better to take it off solar and plug the battery into the high amp charger when still depleted from the night before, meaning don't let the solar do the last recharge before you get home.

Your storage charge controller should have at least an adjustable float voltage, for when in storage.  Northstar recommends 14.46 Absorption voltage, and Deka is similar, but Northstar's float is 13.6v and I 'believe' Deka is 13.2v at 77F.

If the Northstar is new enough and healthy, it is a lot of bang for the buck at 150$.

 

[BigT]

Would it be better to skip the solar all together and just charge it off the alternator? I had originally hoped to avoid that because it would require running about 12' of cable, and because I have no idea how to hook it up. Solar just seemed so much easier, but now I'm finding it frustrating and stressful.

High output alternators are pricey too.

 

[SternWake]

If it absolutely has to be one or the other, go for the solar.


You can always add a solenoid and copper to connect alternator to Aux battery later

 

[BigT]

If it absolutely has to be one or the other, go for the solar.

It's interesting that you say that given the higher Amps required for AGM's would likely be provided via the alternator.  

I do no Boondocking at all.  This van is my daily driver, so the alternator would be running regularly.  

I'm curious why you recommend solar over charging off the van's electrical system. 

 

[BigT]

Edit: I found this thread just after I posted ^that^.

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-W...70-amps?highlight=charging+off+the+alternator

 

[SternWake]

Getting from 80% charged 100% state of charge takes hours no matter what.

The Solar has hours, the alternator does not.

The alternator, if well wired, can get a battery quickly to 80%, but that last 20% takes hours no matter what charging source is used.

Even if low and slow solar is not ideal for recharging the NS AGM at the higher desired rate, it is better to get that battery to near 100% daily, then recharge it quickly to 85% daily.

Like anything, before it is attempted, Wiring the alternator to charge an Aux battery seems complicated, but it really is not. If you can utilize both alternator and Solar the battery will live a long life.

If it is to be just the alternator, or just the Solar, my money is on the Solar keeping the battery happier for longest life, as long as the vehicle is not parked in the shade all day long.

I took 46 AH from my NS AGM last night at a higher rate than which was used to get the 91 AH rating. When the major load was removed( laptop streaming 'Justified, season 6'), voltage rebounded to 12.2 instantly, and while still under a 0.5 amp load (lights and fans).

Northstar says 50% is 12.11 volts, rested.

So despite me taking over half the capacity out of the battery, and taking it out at a faster rate at which it earned its 90Ah rating, and despite being 18 months old, it apparently exceeds its rated capacity.

I switched off my solar when I went to bed, and late this morning applied my 40 amp charging source and turned on My solar.

The Northstar gobbled up 52 amps for 45 minutes before amps began to taper as voltage closed in on 14.45. it took another 3.5 hours for amps to taper below 0.5 at 14.4, which can be considered full charge.

So right around 4.5 hours were required to return this battery to 100%, or nearly so, and that is with 50 amps available initially to charge it.

Are you going to drive 4.5hours each day when out and about and cycling the battery 50% the night before?

Did not think so.

Keep in mind my charging scenarios are for Ideal recharging a battery to 100% each day for maximum lifespan.

One does not need to seek Ideal if they are willing to compromise battery longevity. its all a trade off, and since you get to go plug into the grid after a week or two, you can get away with less ideal situations and not sacrifice too much longevity.

The ability to get a 100% recharge every ~14 cycles is just as important as seeking to get as close as possible to that 100% after each discharge. But the battery is not going to fall dead on day 15 either way.