Free Lithium Batteries From Used Laptops

[Boyntonstu]

I have been making Lithium batteries using 18650 cells harvested from laptops for a few years.

I made several 48 V 18650 batteries for my electric bikes, a 12 V battery for a drill, and a 16 V battery for a portable air compressor.

BYW 18650 means 18 mm diameter and 65 mm in length.

The 18650 size battery was used in the Tesla Model S car.

http://blog.evandmore.com/lets-talk-about-the-panasonic-ncr18650b/

I have some videos on YouTube about the subject.

Below is a video showing a Cadillac version of what can be achieved with these free cells.

Most of us do not use custom racks.

We just a solder together a bunch of batteries and use duct tape to hold them together.

To whet your appetite on what can be achieved using free 18650's check this out:

[video=youtube]

 

[Zil]

Yes. And if they become over charged, or deeply discharged? Things can go bad without battery management.

 

[Ballenxj]

OK, You have piqued my curiosity. From what little I know about Lithium batteries, especially laptop, they do not have a very long life span. You say you are harvesting used ones? Do you have a method for rejuvenating them?
Interesting subject for sure.
Interesting that the Tesla S uses these same batteries? As an aside, I have been for a ride in one of those cars, and aside from being very nice, it was one of the quickest cars I've been in on the street.

 

[MikeRuth]

OK, You have piqued my curiosity. From what little I know about Lithium batteries, especially laptop, they do not have a very long life span. You say you are harvesting used ones? Do you have a method for rejuvenating them?
Interesting subject for sure.
Interesting that the Tesla S uses these same batteries? As an aside, I have been for a ride in one of those cars, and aside from being very nice, it was one of the quickest cars I've been in on the street.

Typically you are not rejuvenating them, your taking the packs apart, testing the individual cells for performance. Those that pass a capacity test are used and the others are junked. 
this is nothing new, been going on quite a while. 
Looking at that system I'd think that other than the batteries, there is quit a bit of investment and time putting this together. Less expensive than say using good old Lead Acid batteries? I wonder.

 

[Boyntonstu]

Typically you are not rejuvenating them, your taking the packs apart, testing the individual cells for performance. Those that pass a capacity test are used and the others are junked. 
this is nothing new, been going on quite a while. 
Looking at that system I'd think that other than the batteries, there is quit a bit of investment and time putting this together. Less expensive than say using good old Lead Acid batteries? I wonder.

Zero cost except for labor.

[video=youtube]

 

[Scott7022]

MikeRuth Wrote:
Typically you are not rejuvenating them, your taking the packs apart, testing the individual cells for performance. Those that pass a capacity test are used and the others are junked.
this is nothing new, been going on quite a while.
Looking at that system I'd think that other than the batteries, there is quit a bit of investment and time putting this together. Less expensive than say using good old Lead Acid batteries? I wonder.

Zero cost except for labor


Really? I'll take a couple of those control circuits, charge controllers, and circuit breakers if you have a free source. I'll even pay the shipping and send Russian Vodka.

The BMS and external battery managment software and computer is probably close to a grand, close to that in wire, shunts and fuses. The cells are harder to get with people converting them to resell to the vaping crowds....

Neat I admit, not practical in a mobile environment as the shaking is going to wear through the plastic covering the cell. Short and THAT'S A FIRE.

 

[Boyntonstu]

Very Old Laptop Batteries:

[video=youtube]

 

[Boyntonstu]

Your post about a whole house huge battery is correct if that is what you want in your van.

"18650 DIY Powerwall Built from used laptop batteries! 4480 cells with 40kWh of storage can power my home for days charged with 4500watts of Solar. "

I posted this monster setup to inspire people about what can be done with free batteries.

Do you want  3,333 Ahr battery in your van?

I have used this 48 V  12.4 Ahr bike for over 4,000 miles.

All drones use Lithium batteries and they are as rugged as hell.

The ride on my present bike using Li- Polimer batteries and my mountain bike using Lithium-Ion batteries was a rough as could possibly be.  No failure on either bike.

For my needs,  no  fancy charger, no balancing, just a 48 V constant Voltage battery source.

I will share some of my experiments, builds, and methods of working with Lithium batteries.

There is a learning curve, but it is doable to many people.

O.K. Here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=59MJHR5_-pE

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=59MJHR5_-pE[/video]

 

[highdesertranger]

what do you do with the bad batteries that can't be used? highdesertranger

 

[Boyntonstu]

what do you do with the bad batteries that can't be used?  highdesertranger

Important question. Thanks.

Do not throw them into the trash.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-properly-dispose-of-laptop-batteries

Places that take them include Best Buy,  Lowe's, RadioShack, Staples and The Home Depot, all of which run free recycling services.

 

[Boyntonstu]

Here is how I measure individual cell voltages and how I can balance the cells.

Cost? A few bucks.

BTW  I have used Lithium batteries for hundreds of cycles without any problems.

The reason why they last so long is because I never charge them beyond 4.0 V per cell.  (12.0)

In the case of my electric bikes, I discharge them to 3.8 V per cell.  (11.4 V)

I am willing to forgo maximum power output for maximum life. (cost)

Do the research first!

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=9pCAmZV1ZbU

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=9pCAmZV1ZbU[/video]

 

[jonyjoe303]

They make good powerpacks, I made a 65 ah 11.1 volt one out of 90 x 18650. I actually took the old 17 ah agm that was in a jumpstart unit and was able to cram all 90 batteries in there. 65 ah lithium pack is comparable to a 130 ah lead acid. 
For comparison a goal zero 400 lithium costs 599 dollars and is a 10.8 volt 39 ah powerpack.

If you recycle batteries, I usually use batteries that have at least 1800 mah of power in batterypacks, anything below are still good and you can use in flashlights or smaller battery packs. A good charger that will charge/discharge/test 18650 is the opus btc 3400 , it can charge/discharge 4 cells at 1 amp per cell. After you charge them to 4.2 volts, let them sit or 3 hours, any that don't hold voltage I label as below standards. Any cell that reads 1800 mah or higher have years of life left in them. 

You can solder them together, or tab weld them if you got a welder. For safety put a 5 amp fuse on every cell (tesla uses fuses on every cell in their battery packs), if a cell shorts out it will blow the fuse without overheating. When it blows the fuse that cell is bypassed, the battery pack can still be used. Treat the lithium like you would treat any other high power source/battery to minimize hazards. If you do sloppy wiring/connections/don't use enough fuses that will create hazards. The namebrand 18650 are designed to vent when overcharge/overheated and not catch on fire, but if they get hot enough they might catch other things on fire wiring etc. 

To charge an 11.1 volt pack you need a balanced charger, I tried charging them with my solar controller but it will trip the bms every time. But they will fast charge at up to 15 amps before tripping the bms.

As long as you don't overcharge them they are safe to use. With a balance charger it will treat them very gentle while giving them maximun amps.

The lithium to stay away from are the saddle packs, they are very light high discharge packs used in remote control planes, those have cause many fires. Incidentally those packs are used in portable lithium jump packs in people car trunks, they usually have a high discharge 11.1 volt 3 ah saddle pack. When fully charge, you don't want to drop them. I seen remote control electric planes catch on fire when they crash. They have a habit of puffing/bloating when mistreated. 

The hard part is testing every cell, that will take time. On ebay there are sellers who sell 18650 that are pretested and the mah written on them. I bought some ( you can get deals of 30 for 30 dollars, these are name brand cells) and used them on my batterypacks.  For actual car jump packs, as little as 9 cells can be used but you need the high drain cells found in power tools, those are more expensive but I was able to buy 100 high drain cells tested for 50 dollars.
90 cell 65 ah battery pack, the capacity of a group 34 that you can carry in one hand.

 

[Boyntonstu]

We are both going down the same Lithium path.

I learned how to solder 18650's using a trick that I developed.

Use a 150 Watt soldering iron plugged into an AC receptacle that is controlled with a 1,000 Watt slide dimmer.

Adjust the temperature so that the iron will hold the tinning and not run too hot.

It takes a brief moment to get a bright dab of solder onto the battery.

Pre-tin the wire and it solders onto the dab very easily.

I crammed 5 18650's into an old Harbor Freight 18 V  NiCd drill and it runs great at 20 V.

I charge to 4.0 V per cell.  

It is nice to know that there are others here also recycling used laptop batteries.

I recycle on my bicycle.

 

[itsmeagain]

***   Just an FYI --- Dogman Dan from Endless Sphere (I'm sure you know who he is if you're into e-bikes) just had a major house fire from 18650 cells. (48v 20ah pack)

Not RC Lipos..   18650's


Be careful, stay balanced, and treat them with the same respect as you would lipo..   which should be stored and charged like it's TNT.

"Never charge where you would not build a fire." - Dogman (years ago)

 

[itsmeagain]

btw..  why stop at assembling your own batteries?
Why not assemble the panels as well?

Here's Rinoa Super-Genius's $15 40w panel:

[video=youtube]

 

[itsmeagain]

Or you can really go to town and make the panels/cells from scratch chemistry

[video=youtube]

 

[GotSmart]

There is a line between saving money and taking chances with your life.  

I understand experementing and learning how to make things.  

But encourageing Darwin Awards  is just irresponsible.

 

[squatting dog]

There is a line between saving money and taking chances with your life.  

I understand experementing and learning how to make things.  

But encourageing Darwin Awards  is just irresponsible.

Sorry, got to disagree with you there. I know nothing about lithium batteries, or most any battery for that matter, but, without thinkers and tinkerers, where would we be as a society?  Thinking further along those lines, where would we be if someone hadn't wondered, thought about, and finally perfected a lead acid battery? see what I mean? For everything that we take for granted today, somebody had to take a risk to develop said item. JMHO

 

[Boyntonstu]

There is a line between saving money and taking chances with your life.  

I understand experementing and learning how to make things.  

But encourageing Darwin Awards  is just irresponsible.

A professional install and yet there was a fire:

http://www.lowellsun.com/todaysheadlines/ci_30061421/solar-panel-fires-concern-local-officials

Batteries are a different story.

A lead acid is already in your car and it deemed quire safe.

However, my friend Ray awoke to see his car on the driveway burned down to the ground.  It was caused by the battery and a short.

Nevertheless, I consider LA to be very reliable except for the Hydrogen issue during charging inside a vehicle.
There is ventilation under the hood.

Lithium:  Laptops and phones use Lithium batteries.  There are a gazillion out there.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why smartphone batteries are becoming fire hazard[/font]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...e-becoming-fire-hazard/slideshow/54324880.cms

If you harvest laptop batteries, you know after the test of time that "rare manufacturing defects" are not likely.

Laptops use 18650's.  These are made in the millions and there are several good quality manufacturers.

How many 18650's in a Tesla?

• Tesla’s “85” kWh pack consists of 16 modules of 444 cells for 7,104 total cells.
  
• Tesla’s “60” kWh pack consists of 14 modules of 384 cells for 5,376 total cells.

That is a bunch.

Unlike LA that give off flammable Hydrogen during charging, Lithium batteries do not.

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]During charging, most [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]batteries[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] will offgas hydrogen, making adequate [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]ventilation [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]and the elimination of ignition sources critical attributes of the charging area. That said, it should be noted that certain types of [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]batteries[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif], including [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]lithium ion[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] and [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]lithium[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] metal polymer, [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]do[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] not [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]require ventilation[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif].[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]That said, the Lithium battery could be encased in non-flammable material so that if there is a fire it would be contained.  There are many fire proof materials available that would contain any fire.[/font]

This is an interesting article regarding EV fire statistics:

http://insideevs.com/number-of-fire-related-deaths-per-year-caused-by-evs/

"[font=HelveticaNeue,]As for the five Model S fires in question, the true cause of one is still under investigation, but with well over 125,000,000 Tesla miles, we would still need 11 Tesla fires to [/font][font=HelveticaNeue,]equal the fires of the tried and true Internal Combustion Engine[/font][font=HelveticaNeue,]."[/font]

[font=HelveticaNeue,]Nothing is 100% safe.[/font]

 

[itsmeagain]

... Unlike LA that give off flammable Hydrogen during charging, Lithium batteries do not.

Correct, unless they go out of balance and one or more cells gets overcharged...   then they turn into flame throwers. 
Charging Lead Acid batteries is a lot safer than Lithium. A chemical fire that doesn't require oxygen to keep growing is a very scary sight.

I'll just leave this link here in case it saves a life one day:     https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=87975

[font=HelveticaNeue,]Nothing is 100% safe.[/font]

100% correct.

I think you have the right mindset.  No one here, including you, is trying to argue the point that these things are totally safe. There have certainly been lead acid fires, and lithium batteries in consumer products like cellphones, laptops, and e-cigs have also caught fire / burst over the years. Plenty of evidence out there. 

Just like a owning a firearm, or a riding a motorcycle, or or flying a small aircraft, as long as you own the responsibility and respect the activity, there should be a reasonable margin of safety.   By that.. I mean, storing the battery outside of the home, in a battery bunker or metal enclosure like an ammo can in a metal trash can, and always charge the battery outside, in a location that suitable to build a fire.    Do that, and you (and your neighbors) should be fine.

Stay balanced, have some fun, and keep us posted on how it goes.

I'd like to know how many 18650's are needed to power a nice rv solar setup...  in theory, I believe it should only require 1/3 of the AH to have the same usable capacity as lead acid. Maybe something like 12v 500ah..  what's that, like 684 cells