Engine Knock??

wrcsixeight · Jun 1, 2013

It should be noted that the oil filter listed in the parts books is tiny. If your engine is dirty and the new oil gets black quickly, then it is possible that the tiny oil filter is restricting flow a little bit.  They do have a bypass valve.  There must be 12 to 16 psi difference across the media for the bypass to open.  If a cheap filter, the bypass might not be calibrated right Arguably beneficial is a larger filter, to increase oil capacity, increase surface area of the filtering medium for less pressure drop across the media. Purolator 30001 will fit and hold 40% more oil.  Motorcraft FL-1A also fits and has a thread end bypass valve, a good feature. Both are very good filters for the money.  Much better made than an orange can Fram for more $ <a href="http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313238" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313238</a>

joey · Jun 1, 2013

I was having the same problem with the lifter ticking and my mechanic said it was caused by the ethanol in the gasoline. Ethanol adds moisture to the gas. You have to get gas from a place that sells "ethanol free gas".

highdesertranger · Jun 2, 2013

joey ethanol or water in the fuel will not cause a lifter tick.  as far as the multi grade oils go if you have 5w/30.  you really only have 5 weight they put viscosity agents in to make thicker at higher temps.  5w is only good for extremely cold weather not summer temps.  those viscosity agents break down the more they break down the closer you get to 5w.  I run 20/50 in mine.  also the w as in 5w/30 means it rated for winter use.  it does not mean weight.  highdesertranger

user 423 · Jun 2, 2013

MMO is basically a solvent and helps dissolve deposits that can cause sticky lifters. It is thinner than oil but unless you dump a whole bunch in, it doesn't affect overall viscosity much. It's worth a try on an old motor but it's not going to fix worn parts. In the summer time I wouldn't worry about insufficient flow to the topside of the engine on startup as much as thermal breakdown of a lighter oil in brutal heat. 10w40 at least IMO.

James AKA Lynx · Jun 2, 2013

Thanks, I was adding gas additive because I was driving less that 3000 miles per year and I thought that the tank had gunk in it that was causing me problems. It seamed to help. I did not know about the filters on the injectors. Going to get the manual and take them apart. May be my problem as the knock started when driving 70. Marvel Mystery Oil - keep reading good things about this. Going to try it, Do you only put it in? 20/50 vrs 10/40 oil - From what I have read, the 5W will help the oil pump maintain pressure. However, it is summer and Temps are higher. What I think I will go with the 20/50. Oil filter - Thanks I will go with the Motorcraft. Would it help to change the filter early without changing the oil, say in 500 miles? Thanks, James AKA Lynx Ethanol in gas - traps water and forms gels inside the gas tank in time. If you are in a humid area and do not drive much you may have a problem.  Just keep a full tank and add some gas dryer. Gas does lose octane when sitting, A month is OK, after that it slowly goes bad. If this has happened to you just add some Octane booster. or fill up with high test.

offroad · Jun 2, 2013

finding this all interesting.  Some ace mechanics here, some fix it with magic chemistry types too (which can work - so no disrespect). Overall the average van dweller with limited mechanical training (think good smart folks - just lack of expertise) would be at a dead stop, and broken down with this kind of problem.  They would await the engine to explode, because a risky guess fix at a mechanic is very costly. Thus am always surprised by the survivors of this lifestyle.

James AKA Lynx · Jun 2, 2013

Yes, but the learning curve on repairing is easy enough. You save some money as well. Be surprised how many times you will fix it. Just know what you do not and figure out all else. Advice is easy to get. Good and bad. My experience is stronger than most. I also worked fixing forklifts professionally. The fix so far is easy for my van. Remove the valve covers, spray  carb cleaner on and in the rods soaking the lifters and then put back together. easy on mine as nothing is on top. removing 16 screws, clean, apply gasket and put back together. change oil and filter. James AKA Lynx

wrcsixeight · Jun 2, 2013

I don't want to get in a thick oil vs thin oil argument.  I just wouldn't run 20w-50 unless the engine couldn't maintain 8PSI when hot and idling, as my factory service manual states is the minimum for my LA 318, at 750rpm. Before I knew better I let a mechanic buddy convince me I needed 20w-50 as these engines "like it" and the motor was sluggish and developed a lifter tick that disappeared when I went back to 10w-40.  I now run Mobil1 0w-40 (under25$ for 5 quarts at wally world) and the lowest PSI I see is 16, at 550 rpm when as hot as I can get the oil.  I do have an aftermarket mechanical OP gauge installed, the factory gauge is still operational and only vaguely mimics the Mechanical OP gauge, which responds instantly to changing RPM's.  62 PSI is the oil pump relief valve setting on mine.  When the oil is hot, 62 psi is reached at ~2000 rpm. Some state the perfect oil weight for any given condition is the weight which keeps the oil pump from going into bypass until near redline, and still maintains the minimum required PSI at hot idle.  Perhaps from a maximum HP/torque perspective this is true but I prefer a little more buffer. Do get yourself a factory service manual on E bay motors.  Haynes or chilton's guides are jokes in comparison. <a href="http://www.ebay.com/sch/6000/i.html...rs_Manuals_Literature&_vxp=mtr&_rdc=2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.ebay.com/sch/6000/i.html...rs_Manuals_Literature&_vxp=mtr&_rdc=2</a> Lots of old wives tales and misunderstandings abound about oil weights. a 5w 30 is a 5 weight oil that had Viscosity Index Improvers so that when at full temperature, it has the same viscosity as a straight 30 weight oil at that same temperature.  These viscosity index improvers can break down (shear) over time resulting in a thinner oil at temp.  Generally the higher the spread of the numbers the more prone to shearing the oil is. VII's have improved many fold over the last 20 years, and all name brand oils are now much much more resistant to shearing.  There are many 5w-30s that are thinner on startup(good) and just as thick at 100C as 10w-30's, and very resistant to shearing. Generally the lower the first number, the higher quality of base stocks are required.  There are no mineral oil 0w-xx oils, only synthetic. Your reading that 5w was required to 'maintain pressure' shows that your are reading the wrong information. <a href="http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/ </a>MMO's instructions say to add upto 20 percent of the total volume, so if the van requires 5 quarts of oil, 4 quarts of oil and 1 of MMO. Changing the filter after 500 miles can be beneficial if the engine is known to be sludged.  I like prefilling the filter 2/3 the way before reinstalling to minimize the time it takes pressure to build and get oil back upto the rockers. I always open up my oil filters with a chisel and inspect the element for debris, or sludge, or tears, also to see how much ferrous material is caught by the magnets I adhere  to the outside of the can. The length of hose trick works good, but this is vastly superior: <a href="http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-41966.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-41966.html </a>You might find opening the valve covers to be a can of worms if it indeed is sludged.  These engines are not known sludgers, but all it takes is a lazy ignorant uncaring previous owner who would say "change it to what?" when asked when the last time the oil was changed. Mechanical cleaning under the valve covers is a nightmare if it is sludged.  Too much crap can fall below and cause issues, unless the oil pan is also removed and cleaned, which is a huge PITA. Get the stethoscope and make sure it is the lifters, and give the MMO time to give results before removing the valve covers. I am not sure if your injectors also have the fine stainless steel mesh screen on them as mine do.  Mine runs at 15 PSI, yours is closer to 50.  Opening the fuel system can be dangerous when it is under pressure.  Locating the ASD/fuel pump relay and disconnecting it then cranking the engine will relieve the pressure, among other methods.

James AKA Lynx · Jun 2, 2013

Interesting read. A lot supports what I know and have read. PO was Version/GTE and the oil was changed just before they put it in storage and then sale. The oil looked very bad on the first change. The reason I want to change the filter is that the oil looked dirty after 25 miles. I can always change it sooner ( of course ). My main concern is damage. Running the engine for another 200 miles with the tick. I plan to change the oil and put in MMO at 20%. really want to get  the knock under control. Getting a better oil filter and changing it soon when it gets dirty.  I think. Put MMO in gas? Would getting higher octane additives in the gas lighten the tick?  I put in 1/2 tank high test. Can anybody explain why the tick is only when warm? The main reason why I wanted to open the valve covers is to spray something on the lifters to free them up. James AKA Lynx

Zil · Jun 2, 2013

You can't really clean the lifters from the valve covers. Use an oil additive and change the oil and filter often. if the lifter can be saved, that will do it. wrcsixeight gives you some good information. The numbers on the oil mean it has the same viscosity cold or hot. Look for motor magic or something like it. I like the NAPA products. Just be sure to change the oil and filter often.

highdesertranger · Jun 2, 2013

yes I run 20/50.  I didn't mean everyone should.  I run it because in the morning it can be in the 30's and by 2 o'clock the mid 90's or higher.  I was trying to let everyone know that a 5w or 10w is for winter use and the 5w for extremely cold temps.   I also run lucas oil stabilizer it slows the oil consumption down allot.  I rebuilt my motor in 2001 so its starting to show it's age and goes though a little oil.   highdesertranger

wrcsixeight · Jun 2, 2013

Higher octane gas only helps pre ignition/pinging. Ticking lifters is unrelated. Ticking lifters is not an engine destroyer.  The Hemi's of late are notorious tickers and the  engine is the last reason the trucks/cars are sold/scrapped. I get a mild lifter tick sometimes.  Comes and goes. I've tried MMO in my Gas, not my sump.  Hasn't hurt anything.  No perceived benefits either.  Seems to help the most on highly carboned engines.  The Upper cylinder lube aspect is claimed by some to help dissolve carbon inbetween the piston rings, allowing them to seal better for more compression and power.  I make no claims in this regard. Oil color is not really indicative of the state of the oil, but in a gas engine, when new oil goes dark fast, it is likely the engine is very dirty inside as the fresh detergents do their job and holds crud in suspension. The Diesel oils like Rotella are High in detergents and many are still rated for use in gasoline engines. Rotella T-6 5w-40 is synthetic, costs about 16$ a gallon at wally world. Synthetic oils clean better.  They can clean the crud off the interior where the seals/gaskets are, and then they can start leaking, which is where the Synthetic oil causes leaks myth came from.  Not so much the synthetic causing it, more like revealing them, but when the result is the same........ My lifters use to tick for a few seconds on start up, every start up, cold or hot.  I tried Synthetic once cause it was on special and they pretty much never tick on start up anymore. I've never known a lifter tick to be audible over the engine/wind noise at highway speeds. Not saying it can't happen, just that I have not heard one be that loud.  The only time I hear mine is when driving next to vertical walls/ fences with my windows down. Keep in mind the a valve tap will be the same hertz as a ticking lifter, and I expect much louder. I would really get a second opinion on the noise itself before throwing any money at additives, oils or filters. Dirter filters, actually filter better, unless they are clogged and going into bypass. The thread end bypass on the Motorcraft FL-1A is nice as the bypassed oil does not wash the dirty side of the filter element and send it through the engine as dome end bypass does. Mobil1 M1-301 is also a thread end bypass, but also a 12$+ filter if not acquired on special.  I got 5 quarts of M1 0w-40 and a M1-301 for 29.99 at pep boys.  Always keep an eye out for deals like this.

user 423 · Jun 3, 2013

I finally found my calculator and if you average the aforementioned recommended oils it comes out to 10W-38. Lucas,MMO,STP,Bardahl are all unknown variables.

Zil · Jun 3, 2013

A good 10w-40. The old standby.

James AKA Lynx · Jun 3, 2013

Thanks all, These results are for me. YOURs MAY/WILL VARY. I had done other things to the engine before but never solved the valve tick. Now after 40 miles the engine tick is almost gone. My engine needs 4 quarts. I put in 3 quarts of 10W-40 Pennzoil w/active cleaning agents and 1 quart Marvel Mystery Oil. I plan to change filter in about 300 miles and put in another quart of Pennzoil. I looked at Rotella 10W-40 and it said was for Diesel engines. I also did not want to switch to synthetic. 1) what is the difference of Diesel oil and gas oil? 2) is the Rotella10W-40 synthetic? Thanks, GREAT FIX, James AKA Lynx

greybeard23 · Jun 3, 2013

You might want to add a quart of Lucas Oil Treatment when you change your oil.  It's amazing stuff, make it for the tranny also. Got me over 3,000 miles on an almost dead engine and tranny, enough to get me home.

Zil · Jun 3, 2013

Rotella is fine for gasoline engines, more expensive. Not a synthetic. Most hot-roders use this because of the zinc additive still in Rotella. Adds wear resistance for solid lifters and cam lobs.

wrcsixeight · Jun 3, 2013

Lucas, the used car salesman's best friend.  Used to raise oil pressure in heavily worn engines This gorilla snot is free of any detergents, antiwear or extreme pressure ingredients. Adding it to your oil dilutes these ingredients in the motor oil, and can also cause your oil pump to turn the oil into a foamy mess. It is just an oil thickener. Don't fall for the marketing, don't put it in a healthy engine.  Save the 10$ and put it toward a better oil, and if you want thicker oil, buy thicker oil, do not play chemist and try to make it thicker. Lynx, good to hear the ticking quieted. Pennzoil yellow bottle is definitely one of the best conventional oils available these days, though I'm sure some will jump in and claim it causes sludge, rumors based on quasi truth from 30 years ago.  Pennzoil oils have a lot of moly and some claim it quietens down their engines of valvetrain noises. <a href="http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/</a> Diesel oils can be used in gasoline engines no problem, it is just oils for gasoline engines are not robust enough to deal with the soot and extreme loading of diesel engines. Not all Rotella's are synthetic, actually most of them are not. Not always easy to tell, but I think the Rotella T-xx are synthetic, and plain old Rotella is conventional. Rotella and Pennzoil are both a Shell Oil company Product. A lot of MMo users put it in at 20% 1000 miles before an oil change.  Some leave it in the whole oil change.  Since it is more volatile than motor oil, it will burn off faster than motor oil, so expect the level on the dipstick to drop faster than normal. Definitely open up the oil filter to see if the filter pleats are collecting sludge and carbon flakes.  A 1" wide chisel 1/4 to 3/8 away from the base plate and a hammer around the perimeter is the easiest way and does not get metal shavings inside and all over the element like a hack saw angle grinder or dremel will.  Beware of sharp edges. If The filter does not appear very dirty, then there is no real point in changing it so often.  The filter cannot change the color of the oil.  A full flow  spin on filter filters to 20 microns and larger.  Most oil darkening elements are in the 2 to 3 micron range, and a bypass filter would be needed to filter those out.

James AKA Lynx · Jun 3, 2013

Thanks for the info. I did buy a $ 13 filter. Thanks for the data on the oil. Hard to get sometimes. I was thinking that the filter would clean the dirty oil. So, If the oil has some black in it after a few hundred miles (the filter is not cleaning this out right?), Should I change the filter? or filter and oil? Is there an easier way to clean all of this out of the engine? I am prep'ing for some long trips and do not want the problems. Thanks, James AKA Lynx

user 423 · Jun 3, 2013

You might be looking at this 'dirty' oil in the wrong way. For it to turn dirty in only 25 miles is pretty unusual. Are you just judging by what it looks like on the dipstick? Or a paper towel? Some oils are darker than others when new. It could be all sludged up and it's being flushed out with the new oil and it might be that way a couple more times at least. As WRC says, even the best filter will not get the very tiny particles that cause darkening. Have you driven it enough to know how much oil it uses? Even with really bad blowby, the oil shouldn't get dirty in such a short time.

Engine Knock??

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