Do You Trust Law Enforcement?

[WalkaboutTed]

I forgot that one of the worst things I should have gotten a ticket for is that I was pissed at my ex. I rammed his car from behind three times until my car wouldn't run any more. Two cars wrecked intentionally. No ticket.
Ted

 

[MG1912]

I trust law enforcement. I have always had respectful, speedy, and professional encounters with police. For that matter, I keep myself and my vehicle clean, don’t associate with shady people, follow the laws, always put my hands on the wheel, don’t smoke while being pulled over, and answer, “Yes, Sir/Ma’am” and “No, Sir/Ma’am.” I never threatened a law enforcement officer, never fought with one, and never ran from one.

Further, I am confident that if I called the police for an emergency, they would respond quickly and -- for the most part -- professionally, with some allowances made for the circumstances (they are human, after all, and thus subject to stress, confusion, anger, etc.). My job is to not add to their stress and argue or fight with them, but rather to answer their questions directly and honestly, and to comply with their requests/commands.

So yes, I trust the police. I believe it is the same with an interaction with the police as it is with virtually everything else in life -- you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[jacqueg]

You know, I used to agree with you.

But I don't anymore. 

Not real long ago, I parked in a [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]grocery store [/font]lot and went in to do some shopping.

When getting back into my van with my groceries, I was confronted and aggressively questioned by a female cop less than half my age. Someone in the store had reported that there were a couple of dark-colored SUVs cruising the lot in a suspicious manner. The cop had clearly been trained to be aggressive and threatening in order to establish dominance right from the get-go, and after asking me whether I knew anything about this - which I did not - needled me in order to get a reaction out of me. She was clearly looking for an excuse to throw her weight around about something. And I got the distinct impression that just about anything would do.

I am a 72-yo woman driving a white cargo van.

 

[WanderingRose]

“I believe it is the same with an interaction with the police as it is with virtually everything else in life -- you get out of it what you put into it.“

I have to say I disagree with this, as well, tho I’ve never been arrested and my practice is always compliance and cooperation.

You get out of anything what you put into it, until you don’t.

There are law enforcement officers out there who cannot be trusted, and it has to do with them, not with my compliant and cooperative self.

 

[crofter]

You know, I used to agree with you.

But I don't anymore. 

Not real long ago, I parked in a [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]grocery store [/font]lot and went in to do some shopping.

When getting back into my van with my groceries, I was confronted and aggressively questioned by a female cop less than half my age. Someone in the store had reported that there were a couple of dark-colored SUVs cruising the lot in a suspicious manner. The cop had clearly been trained to be aggressive and threatening in order to establish dominance right from the get-go, and after asking me whether I knew anything about this - which I did not - needled me in order to get a reaction out of me. She was clearly looking for an excuse to throw her weight around about something. And I got the distinct impression that just about anything would do.

I am a 72-yo woman driving a white cargo van.

They are targeting you to find a reason to search your van. They put out facebook rumors about white vans a while back, and believe their own lies.

I get hasseled at the grocery store also, where I get my prescriptions. Its just a power trip. In some states they can jail you for no reason, so LEOs  could be trolling for new inmates to fill up the jail. You might find a different store to shop at and solve the problem that way.
-crofter

 

[crofter]

You know, I used to agree with you.

But I don't anymore. 

Not real long ago, I parked in a [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]grocery store [/font]lot and went in to do some shopping.

When getting back into my van with my groceries, I was confronted and aggressively questioned by a female cop less than half my age. 

Could be unlawful detention, a violation of your fourth amendment rights. The officer must have a reasonable belief you committed a crime, and probable cause, as well as within the time limit of the detention. Just because you bought groceries is not a reason to detain you.  The use of excessive force and LEOs lying to the judge also fall under unlawful detention. Here is the link. These laws apply more to people who can afford lawyers. The rest of us really just need to avoid having the contact at all.
-crofter

Description: legal website article on fourth ammendment rights and remedies.
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/civil-rights/unlawful-detention/

 

[WanderingRose]

Last year at a large federal campground on the west coast I was pulled up at the self registration kiosk busily filling out my tag when a female ranger approached me with her hand on her weapon.

She asked me to move out of the lane, so others could get through, which I promptly did tho noted she had blocked with her Ranger vehicle the go-around lane on the other side of the kiosk.

It was the usual federal check in station, accepting a check or cash and no signage indicating otherwise, but she said that during office hours I could use my credit card and she could call them.

I told her that was okay, I was already writing out a check, then she said “Ma’am, MA’AM“ as she got them on the phone.

I politely told her I had already written out a check.  She was clearly upset, I just as politely left and went to my site.

I spoke with her supervisor a bit later, and he told me she used to work for the State Police and I was not the first person to have complained she had approached them with her hand on her weapon.

I had another incident last fall out east when parked for the night in a public parking area a bit off a secondary road.  A police officer knocked on my door late that night, stood in the lights from his cruiser so I could see who he was and said he needed to check on me.

He insisted he had to visually see me and inside my RV, so I put on my robe and opened the door, he then shone his flashlight inside to see me, that we were alone and okay.  He then told me I was fine to park there and to have a good night.

It was a welfare check, apparently locally required and likely stemming from some kidnapping or similar issue where law enforcement missed an opportunity to intervene.

Both of these could be considered detention by the police of sorts, but to me any time the police speak with you there is a detention of sorts because one feels obligated to stay put and comply.

Remember the couple who were killed and buried in the sand at Padre Island National Seashore last year?

The couple arrested for murdering them had been stopped by a Ranger before this couple disappeared, and failed to run a check on the male driver who had outstanding warrants.

No one wants their hands to be the last ones on an individual who later ends up severely injured or dead.

My position is that we have to balance our rights with law enforcements need to do their job, and if we encounter one like the park ranger with her hand on her weapon, we still act appropriately to the situation and report problems to their supervisor.

My two cents.

 

[RvNaut]

Interesting...

A great set off responses.

Most of us want to be able to trust the LEO community, but it seems clear that by their own actions, LEO's have earned a great deal of mistrust.

... and yet, we those with mistrust tend to be... shamed ( not the right word) .. fortheir lack of trust.

I see a LEO community that no longer has the right to demand trust. I hope that we can transition to a system that values the uniqueness of all peoples. As a older white male, I have experienced a gun drawn as I reached under my seat for my wallet, but I din;t really fear, as it made sense.. it was Houston and an altercation had broken out down the street. I have also witnessed via TV coverage how officers are capable of behaving, especially when they think no one is watching.

When I get out there, there will be 4 answers. Yes Sir, No Sir, Thank You Sir, and finally I am no required to answer that question sir. It is that last one that will be potential for trouble. Although it is my right to not answer some questions, it is perceived by LEO as a challenge to their macho control freak authority.

I hope for a future where our LEO actually serve the public and not rule over it... when they no longer feel they have to shot first and ask questions later, when they no longer see everyone as dirty thieves and vagrants, but as fellow humans.

There are bad apples, but they are protected by their own system, and those that would out the bad apples tend not to...

 

[dixonge]

While I have personally known more than one LEO who happened to be very good at their jobs while maintaining their humanity and basic decency and ethics, I have often run into the opposite. Over time I realized that a corrupt system attracts people who value corruption. In Mexico, when you realize that a cop is trolling for a bribe, you don't mind giving him some extra as you think this will both get you back on the road quickly, is still cheaper than a ticket in the US, and you know he will be paying rent and buying food with the money. In the US, the money goes to the city. It's still a bribe most of the time, since very few tickets involve actual safety concerns. It's a revenue center. But it's easier to pay it than fight it.

I only fought one ticket, mainly because I knew that, for once, I was completely innocent of the violation. But at municipal court the judge sided with the officer's version and I still had to pay. That's when I knew that the system was corrupt. The financial incentive was to always side with the officer who was generating the revenue. It paid the salary of both the officer and the judge - why worry about truth?

Bodycams are an attempt to reform this, to avoid taking an officer's word at face value. Time and time again this vindicates victims, although often after the victim is dead. The entire justice system fights to avoid reforms or work around them. This is just the way it is.

As a white male I have mostly avoided any serious problems with the law. If I was a person of color I would already have served probably at least two probationary periods, if not actual jail time. Or been killed. That is *also* just the way it is.

Short version - I trust Law Enforcement to do their job. This makes me both nervous and cautious, and I will not give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be trustworthy.

 

[WanderingRose]

I had a speeding ticket once that was a) undeserved by me, and b) issued by a patrolman who thru his extraneous verbiage clearly knew who I was and what I did for a living.

I accepted the ticket, challenged it in court and had it overturned by the judge.

The patrolman did tell the truth under oath.

I met a young woman a couple of years back who told me about a patrolman who she felt was harassing her by issuing repeated $185 tickets for “swerving”.

She couldn’t afford the tickets and denied swerving. I encouraged her to speak with this officers supervisor and also challenge her tickets in court.

I hope she did.

 

[jacqueg]

They are targeting you to find a reason to search your van. They put out facebook rumors about white vans a while back, and believe their own lies.

I get hasseled at the grocery store also, where I get my prescriptions. Its just a power trip. In some states they can jail you for no reason, so LEOs  could be trolling for new inmates to fill up the jail. You might find a different store to shop at and solve the problem that way.
-crofter

From the things she said to me, she found it highly suspicious that I was getting ready to pull out just as she spied me. Apparently, the only possible reason that I would be leaving a grocery store parking lot right then was because I had a guilty conscience.

 

[rvwandering]

I've removed a series of off-topic posts. Please stay on topic - Do you trust law enforcement?

 

[crofter]

Here is some old news from a different source. You could get contacted, injected and incarcerated without having much to say at all. 
~crofter

Description: link to article

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/25/ketamine-police-use-minnesota/

"waivers for excited delirium Issued by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. Some 902 waivers were made from 2018 to June 2020, even though the department guidance says the condition is rare and ketamine should "not be considered the standard of care for the management of excited delirium or agitation."
That increase in usage is "alarming," said Dr. Mary Dale Peterson, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. "It can be fatal, as we have seen in a couple of cases without proper monitoring and attention to detail." From the following link.

Description: link to article and newscast on ketamine restraints in Colorado
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/us/ketamine-use-in-police-stops/index.html

 

[WanderingRose]

Wow.

 

[crofter]

Here is some old news from a different source. You could get contacted, injected and incarcerated without having much to say at all. 
~crofter

Description: link to article

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/25/ketamine-police-use-minnesota/

"waivers for excited delirium Issued by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. Some 902 waivers were made from 2018 to June 2020, even though the department guidance says the condition is rare and ketamine should "not be considered the standard of care for the management of excited delirium or agitation."
That increase in usage is "alarming," said Dr. Mary Dale Peterson, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. "It can be fatal, as we have seen in a couple of cases without proper monitoring and attention to detail." From the following link.

Description: link to article and newscast on ketamine restraints in Colorado
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/us/ketamine-use-in-police-stops/index.html

From the above article: "[font=CNN,]Attorney Udoibok calls ketamine use "the perfect crime against citizens."[/font]

[font=CNN,]"If police are accused of abusing the use of ketamine, the police say it wasn't their decision to administer it, that was the paramedics' choice," he said. "And paramedics are never going to admit they are liable, so they will say ketamine was necessary."
[/font]~crofter

 

[crofter]

Wow.

I agree. Wow, but not in a good way.
~crofter

 

[tripper]

I trust LEO's in general, there are a few bad apples, as there are in every aspect of life. They of course are going to be predisposed to judge based on your vehicle, looks and demeanor.  If you look homeless they are less likely to give you respect; i.e. have decent clean clothes on, brushed hair, deodorant, etc. If you are an azz to them when speaking they will f*ck with you.

 

[rvwandering]

I've deleted some of the back and forth arguing.

 

[crofter]

I've deleted some of the back and forth arguing.

I noticed that you also deleted my post concerning the value of human life. Not a value for you?
-crofter

 

[rvwandering]

Post in thread sometimes get deleted because they do not make sense without the other posts to provide context.