Do You Trust Law Enforcement?

[hugemoth]

I was once arrested and charged with assault on two federal officers in San Diego in 1971. Spent 3 days in jail waiting for a hearing. Ended up being fined $175 for disturbing the peace.

The police lied to the judge. It was a peaceful protest. Since then I have found it impossible to trust police.

 

[MrNoodly]

...They have to be under pressure every time they stop a car or answer a call because they know they could be killed...

An FBI report for 2019 shows "...[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents."

Forty-eight is forty-eight too many, but it's way less than we're usually led to believe.


https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...cers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty[/font][/SIZE]

 

[travelaround]

I trust them unless I get an indicator that I shouldn't. Local LEO's (in this very small town) I do trust more than those outside the area. I make an effort to comply with laws and rarely have contact with LEO's.

 

[winterwanderer]

I agree with many of you who are cautious about police. But being an ex EMT who worked closely with the police in the capital city of Harrisburg. I understand that their personal lives get mixed up in the professional lives. We have a grumpy day we can just Grump they have to “protect and serve “. I think I want to say in fairness to them is They have to be under pressure every time they stop a car or answer a call because they know they could be killed. That kind of pressure would take a Lotta nerve to handle. But like many of you I hope I never run into one who’s having a bad day.

These's a big difference between curtness and "power tripping". In fact, I don't want police to be friendly or easygoing during a nonconsensual encounter! Before I know it, I've let my guard down, telling stories of my travels and making him suspicious LOL. 

My beef is with police who are bullies. These police don't seem stressed out, tired or grumpy; rather, they clearly enjoy intimidating and dominating people. They are the kind who will order you out of your rig at 3 am, while you're wearing nothing but a pair of boxers. The kind who stand with their back to the spotlight blaring on you, leaving you dazzled and disoriented. The kind who reach through your truck window to grab your pants and go through the pockets, then order you to put them on. The kind who pat you down and then make you sit on the curb with your hands on your head, while they surround you and interrogate you. The kind who call you "belligerent" over the radio for politely refusing to answer questions, a strongly implied threat of violence. And all this while refusing to divulge the crime they suspect you of committing. The "crime" of odd behavior...walking shirtless in the drizzle on a rural road, or spending the night in a darkened roadside pullout.

All this for a rather skinny, quiet, politely formal white male...you can only imagine what happens to someone who dresses in an urban style, talks street slang, and doesn't take well to bullying.

 

[desert_sailing]

I posted a metaphor question of the same type regarding this..not sure everyone was able to make the leap. I ask again here.

If you went to a restaurant and you knew there was ONE person spitting on the food while their coworkers silently stood by..would you continue to go there?

Those standing by are just as guilty in my opinion and NO I DONT TRUST A DAMN ONE.

There is at least ONE dirty cop in EVERY dept...the rest just stand by.

I grew up with heavy law enforcement connections.. The county Sheriff was my parents best family friends and basically our only neigbor. I spent nearly all my weekends there.. at another deputies house playing trivial pursuit or hanging with a WSP officers house.. the crap I heard them talk about certain people taught me early on that most are pure dirt bags. Ask an officer what is a warrant wagon and see how they view people.

They have an us vs them mentality and by "them" I mean the public. Anyone who thinks that being friendly with LEO is going to get you a pass is sorely mistaken.

As long as they pick and choose what laws to enforce and on whom  they can't be trusted. They support and protect the status quo and whether at the local or national level they get their marching orders from corrupt politicians.

But I believe in full compliance when in contact and remaing respectful.. then go fight them in court once you are safe in a secure spot. In a one on one he said she said on a remote road.. we will always lose vs them.

In 50 years I have been pulled over once for a headlight that was out.

Don't start none.. wont be none.

... Small town officer bully right here in my town.

 

[user 423]

Not in the USA

Probably the same as what minorities in Oz feel.

 

[nature lover]

Winter wonderer and desert sailing. I will acquiesce I see your points I still think mine is accurate too. Question is just how many of these police are bullies. How many are corrupt, based on my own real experience over the years I just can’t see that it’s a huge percentage of them and I also cannot tolerate those Officers who stood by and let the bully do what they want as far as I’m concerned those officers watching Are accessories to murder. They should’ve at least tried to call headquarters and explain the situation. Actually they should Have saved a man’s life first, calllng a boss would’ve been second thing to do. Today is an important anniversary of Dr. kings famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial. There was violence and lynchings in Kings time and his reaction was non-violent peaceful protest. And that protest was heard and made a large difference. It did not solve everything but it was better than the violence is going on now. Violence begets violence. violence is never an answer.

 

[desert_sailing]

Well.. I have found that the proverbial one apple ruining the whole basket as a simple comparative.
IN agriculture the industry standard for nearly any crop is 10% damaged.. with only 2% of that allowed to be serious damage. If any crop.. whether apples, cherries, pears, potatos, onions..etc etc... exceeds the 10% or exceeds the 2% serious damage it has to be thrown out. THE ENTIRE LOT!
The warehouse has to start all over and reprocess the items.

As an AG inspector it was my job for over 12 years to ensure the rotten ones where not passed along to the public. Where are the inspectors for the bad apples of law enforcement?

If 10% damage and 2% serious damage is good enough for the USDA.. why not for law enforcement?

I use this same metric when dealing with everything in my life.. gatherings of people at an event, the frequenting of businesses, anything that can be counted. If it exceeds 10% tolerance im done with it.

Dump the WHOLE dang thing and start fresh until you get it under tolerance.

LOL.. a stinking potato is held to a higher standard than a cop! IMAGINE THAT.

BTW.. if any of you are curious as to what the standards are for any particular agricultural commodity.. here is the USDA standards. ohh and those apples you are eating from the store???..they are a year old...even if the harvest is under way. ALL FRESH picked apples go for export. They ship AMericans the old ones.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

If 10% damage and 2% serious damage is good enough for the USDA.. why not for law enforcement?

Dump the WHOLE dang thing and start fresh until you get it under tolerance.

LOL.. a stinking potato is held to a higher standard than a cop! IMAGINE THAT.

Well you just might be getting your wish.

Every cop I know is wanting to get out and I can't imagine any young person with options wanting to start that career.  So you are going to be left with cops that have no other options, are in it for the power trip, or think it is a way to get rich (bribes, graft).  Or in the absence of police: vigilantes (e.g. the guards at CHAD/CHOP).

Either way, our life on the road will be much more difficult and dangerous.

It's a lot easier dump a whole load of potatoes than to get a fresh batch of people.

Or maybe apply the same metric to van dwellers.  If 2% of people living in vehicles are causing trouble - 'dump the WHOLE dang thing and start over until you get it under tolerance'.

 

[desert_sailing]

I wouldnt call it a wish.. rather a minimum expectation.

It may be easier to dump a load of potatos but it also easier for a potato to pass muster than it is for law enforcement. Accepting a low standard is never good for the general public.

In many jurisdictions ONLY A HIGH SCHOOL diploma is the standard to be a cop... pretty sure we already have those who can't go elsewhere for employment.

"The slogan, "Don't suffer from PTSD, go out and cause it," was emblazoned on the Dec. 14 graduation programs for 43 officers who completed the Idaho Police Officer Standards and Training"
https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Slogan-stresses-out-police-academy-1259826.php

When there are people picking and choosing which laws and whom they enforce them on.. that is vigilantism. We already have it. Why does one person get a traffic ticket that increases their insurance premiums while the mayors daughter gets a pass? This is exactly the minimum core of why the riots are happening.

Sometimes you have to flush the toilet more than once.

BTW.. the way vandwellers are looked upon in many areas...LOL..they are already viewed with a scrupulous eye. How many communities welcome mobile dwellers with open arms.. outside of a few locales in the SW?

 

[desert_sailing]

I wouldnt call it a wish.. rather a minimum expectation.

It may be easier to dump a load of potatos but it also easier for a potato to pass muster than it is for law enforcement.

** HARDER** for a potato to pass muster than for law enforcement.

 

[Sofisintown]

I must be either naive or lucky.

In all my long years I have encountered several cops, even befriended some, and they were all good people, albeit some of them were disillusioned about what they thought about the job when they first started.
I have been given traffic tickets at times, usually for something I did.
When I didn't think I deserved it, I took my grievances to the court.

Like in every job out there, there is good, and there is bad. I have seen only the good side in real life. People who risked their life to defend the weak and the victimized.
I see the bad side in the media.

It's easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Investigate. Take a look from the inside before you jump to conclusions. What I found is totally cliché; the fish rots from the head.

 

[nature lover]

I agree I wouldn’t trust those people who live in a van down by the river. I live in a van down by the pond.

 

[winterwanderer]

Another point of consideration is that police in any local jurisdiction are specifically hired to protect and serve the interests of local taxpayers. Is this corruption? I don't think so.

In a close-knit community, social justice often takes precedence over legal justice. Take the hypothetical case of a mayor's teenage daughter who gets pulled over for speeding. Instead of a ticket, she gets a warning and her dad gets a phone call. Word gets around, the family is embarrassed, daughter gets her keys taken away. Does she learn her lesson? You bet. And all without the involvement of the courts. Would giving her a ticket have made the community a better place? Unlikely. Rather, using the law as a weapon against normally law-abiding taxpayers for their occasional indiscretions creates far more problems than it solves. 

Now take a vagabond who rolls into town. There is no way to bring social pressure on him to conform to local norms; he has no attachments, doesn't care what people think of him. So law enforcement preasure is the only viable method. The moment he is observed committing an infraction, no matter how petty, he is encouraged to pack it up and get lost. This is why so many towns have criminalized common vagabond behaviors, including overnight parking. It gives police the legal power to enforce the desires of their constituents regarding vagrants, nomads, and other "undesirables".

We all have a right to travel; that is undisputed. But we as nomads do NOT have a right to make ourselves at home within a community. That is a privilege, subjects to the terms & conditions (or whims) of the community. Some communities have a strong antipathy toward "vagrants", and this attitude is clearly revealed in law enforcement action. Often, harassment and intimidation practices go beyond the bounds of what is legally permissible. This is wrong...but on the other hand, we have no legal right to demand that a settled community welcome us with open arms. Nomadism is not protected by any anti-discrimination laws.


So what should you do? First and foremost, show respect for the traditions and sensibilities of the communities we visit. 99 times out of 100, you will be welcomed and have an enjoyable stay. 

Second, if you are given a hostile reception, don't argue, hit the road! If you feel an LEO's hostility was personal and not professional, consider pursuing redress with the local government. Money talks, so remind them of the economic boost that travelers bring, and the damage wrought by unreasonable hostility toward travelers.

Third, stand up for your rights! While you have no right to live in or do business with any particular community, you do have a plethora of other rights that MUST be respected by business and government officials. Know your rights, and exercise them in a calm and peaceful manner.

 

[vanbrat]

Interesting thread of thoughts out here.

I have 2 cops in the family and 1 really good friend that is a cop.
Of the family, 1 cop I think would be a "good" cop 90% of the time, the other family member was a cop and should have been removed from any and every idea of being anything remotely called a cop. He was bad news. But a really friendly family guy. (my eyes just rolled)
The friend I know I think would go out of his way to help anyone if he could. While still doing his job and giving tickets and holding people to the law ETC. He has helped folks in tough spots get help, he has gone out of his way to make sure someone in a bad place in life gets help. He has no problem giving anyone, even me, a ticket to make us slow down when we need to. He turns a blind eye to some knuckle head kids stupid almost legal dumb stuff, but makes sure they don't do it again. (Call mom and or Dad) tells them what could happen if they get to doing it again. He has talked tough to a few bullies on school buses and reminded the bullied kids he is around, just call. Even braver, is he is a black cop in a lily white area where the good old boy club is always in full swing. I haven't talked to him in awhile and feel like maybe he would like to know someone here really appreciates what he does.
Back to the question of do I trust LEO? Most of the time as long as I have not done anything to be worried about I give them my quiet compliance, I don't try to push back at them and respect that they have a job to do. But I am a white old lady and not usually on anyone's radar. So not one to judge.

I have been pulled over a few times because there is/was a truck like mine owned by someone who does some questionable things, I hear. Cops always apologize for pulling me over and noticing I'm me and not the other guy. Hasn't happened in awhile maybe he is gone or has a new truck.

When we get out and about I think I will work to stay out of trouble maybe stronger then at home. (No drinking and driving and no speeding crazy fast, ETC.) The less I do to get noticed the better. Again not as much of an issue being that I am just a old white lady traveling with an old white hubby and a really cool dog. I get that that is not fair. I'm sorry that it is not fair, it should be.

My son used to drive a really funky franekstiened car he called his MAD MAX car, he says he always left early in that car because he could count on getting pulled over. He rigged up a thing of water at his back bumper so when cops stood where they stood to write in their little note book thing they got a squirt of water on their pant leg. HE said that got so many laughs from most of the cops. He said his car would sometimes pee on cops. He also got a few tickets and agreed he usually had them coming. The laughing caps sometimes didn't give the ticket.
Again not fair, he knows it is not fair and if he was a man of color he knows it would not fly.

 

[Cammalu]

Back when the universe was young I was a cop for awhile. I saw some things that were not right to say the least and was vilified for reporting.

I say no. Don’t trust. Don’t don’t don’t

 

[Cammalu]

No no no no no no. At your own risk. Just no

 

[Malamute]

I must be either naive or lucky.

In all my long years I have encountered several cops, even befriended some, and they were all good people, albeit some of them were disillusioned about  what they thought about the job when they first started.
I have been given traffic tickets at times, usually for something I did.
When I didn't think I deserved it, I took my grievances to the court.

Like in every job out there, there is good, and there is bad. I have seen only the good side in real life. People who risked their life to defend the weak and the victimized.
I see the bad side in the media.

It's easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Investigate. Take a look from the inside before you jump to conclusions. What I found is totally cliché; the fish rots from the head.

 This is similar to my experiences. Ive met and known some pretty good people in LE, and had several friends that were current or former LE.

Yes, I agree, theres good and bad in any profession, most of my interactions have been positive, even if getting a ticket. Part of that may be I dont treat them like the plague and hate on them for doing their job. One guy was almost apologetic saying he clocked me and such and such speed (75 in a 65), I said "No, you caught me fair and square, I wasnt paying attention, I didnt even know this truck would go that fast" (4 cyl nissan pickup) He laughed, he gave me the ticket, when he handed back my pistol after he wrote it, I tossed it on the dash, we ended up talking for probably 10 minutes or so, just BSing. Ive had a number of similar instances.

 Was stopped once in Az at night near Sedona. I told him my speedo didnt work right, it was hard to find good speedometers for 1947s, he was somewhat surprised that it was that old, then when asking about my guns (open carry days), "is that an original 1886 Winchester? A nickel Colt Single Action Army?" We talked for maybe 15-20 minutes, he just gave me a warning. Really nice guy.

I almost asked a lady State Police officer out that stopped me once, really nice.

 

[crofter]

No.

Police officers will lie to you in order to entrap you, and are not required to tell the truth. 

Police officers can take you to jail for 6 months in MT without levelling any charge. 

Police officers are trained to pick locks and will search your house without a warrant, they just can't present any evidence from the search in court.

Police officers in MT will arrest you for drug charges if you report a rape involving a chemical restraint such as roofies (date rape).

It is thought that some police officers are involved in criminal activities. including human trafficking.

Other states may have other laws. YMMV
~crofter

 

[WalkaboutTed]

No, I don't trust LEOs. Even though my son is one. But then again, I have always had white pretty girl (now old woman) prosperous looking privilege. My philosophy is that if you look prosperous enough to hire an attorney and sue them, they don't want the hassle, it's easier to get a slam dunk conviction on the poor guy in his old beater. So Hubby stays well groomed and I try to look "respectable".

Should I have gotten in trouble over the years? Damn straight I should have, many times, but I've gotten warnings for things I should have been ticketed for, like 97 in a 75mph zone or 55mph in a 35mph zone. I no longer drive like a wild woman (usually), but I still don't consider myself safe. Hopefully my luck doesn't run out
Ted