Do I need a bigger breaker?

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poot_traveller

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I have a 30AMP breaker on 6 AWG cable between my battery and inverter. I'm wondering if I need a 50AMP breaker?

My inverter is a 300 watt inverter, 12V DC/240V AC, it says peak power is 600 watts (I'm not sure what peak power means).  

My battery is a LiFePO4:

[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Nominal voltage: 12v [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Capacity: 100Ah [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Dimensions: 330x173x216 mm [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Weight: 13kg [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Discharge cut-off voltage: 8.4v [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Operating voltage min 11.5 V - max 14.8 V At 80 % DOD [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Optimal discharge current < 50 A [/font]
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]Charge voltage: 14.6v [/font]


My question is; Should I keep the 30AMP breaker I already installed or do I need a 50AMP breaker?
 
@poot_traveller


I'm not sure what peak power means

That's the surge rating, like when you turn on something that draws right at the maximum current, and it is only momentary, not to worry.

Volts divided by watts equals amps. So in your case, 40 amps. Has it blown a fuse? If it hasn't, then your okay. If it does go no more than a 40 to 45 amp fuse, you want your fuse no more than 10% above rating.
 
Cajunwolf said:
@poot_traveller



That's the surge rating, like when you turn on something that draws right at the maximum current, and it is only momentary, not to worry.

Volts divided by watts equals amps. So in your case, 40 amps. Has it blown a fuse? If it hasn't, then your okay. If it does go no more than a 40 to 45 amp fuse, you want your fuse no more than 10% above rating.

Ahh surge rating. Thanks for explaining that.

So I can go up to 45 amp fuse and no more. I haven't tested it with a 30 amp fuse yet, I'm waiting till Sunday when I have the day off work and can keep a watch on it as it charges for the first time.


Again, Thanks:)
 
how long is the 6 AWG wire?

you fuse to protect the wire not the item you are powering. however the wire size should be of sufficient size to supply the item, in this case the inverter.

600 watts ÷ 12 volts = 50 amps

so the inverter has the potential to draw 50 amps for a short period time not counting losses. so now we are back to how long is the wire? we need to count both the positive and the negative. so if the positive wire is 10ft you really have 20 feet of wire.

highdesertranger
 
Cajunwolf said:
@poot_traveller

Remember, you want the fuse to blow, and if it's above the rated value you'll burn something up before it does.

Yep, understood. Need that breaker to trip.
 
highdesertranger said:
how long is the 6 AWG wire?

you fuse to protect the wire not the item you are powering. however the wire size should be of sufficient size to supply the item, in this case the inverter.

600 watts ÷ 12 volts = 50 amps

so the inverter has the potential to draw 50 amps for a short period time not counting losses. so now we are back to how long is the wire? we need to count both the positive and the negative. so if the positive wire is 10ft you really have 20 feet of wire.

highdesertranger

The positive wire is about 3 feet long from inverter to battery, and the negative wire is about 2 feet long. So 5ft in total.
 
Poot

Did the inverter come with a manual? What does it call for?
 
then 6 AWG is plenty big. now the maximum load that will travel through that wire is 50 amps if you were to ever fully load that inverter. highdesertranger
 
jimindenver said:
Poot

Did the inverter come with a manual? What does it call for?

The manual is vague about everything. It just recommends installing a breaker.
 
I have a 400-watt inverter I keep in my Jeep for many things, but here I'm doing an AC recharge after changing out a suction hose, along with a new dryer. As you can see, I have my handy Kill-A-Watt meter hooked to monitor amps and watts on the vacuum pump. The connection to the battery is 10 AWG via alligator clamps and fused at 35 amps. I get a strong surge when I turn it on; you can see near 500 watts on the meter as the soft-start kicks in to slowly let it come on then settling down to about 300-350 watts. The 35 amp fuse is protecting the 10 AWG wire only, which is why it's there. I also plug in a shop fan blowing directly into the condenser coils while charging to get the system to take a full charge of 24 ounces at 95 degrees ambient temperature.
 

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Quite a big fuse for 10 AWG. Apparently 10 AWG is good for up to 30 amp fuses. 35 amp fuse is cutting it a bit close for comfort.
 
poot_traveller said:
Quite a big fuse for 10 AWG.  Apparently 10 AWG is good for up to 30 amp fuses.  35 amp fuse is cutting it a bit close for comfort.

Good to see that you are catching on quite well :thumbsup:


I do however wonder which table you are using to get the AWG to AMP guide numbers. 
I call the tables and numbers for 'guide numbers', as there are many circumstances to consider, when creating an easy to use table - that will ALWAYS hold true! 

For a (I hope) good guide of AWG-to-AMP numbers I usually use this web page: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


But I wanted to see if I could find a different table that would say max 30 Amp for a 10 AWG wire. 
And this web page does exactly that: https://www.thespruce.com/matching-wire-size-to-circuit-amperage-1152865


So I think the difference between these two web pages are; one is targeted for use in a house/building, the other gives guidelines for wire use as they are typically being used in the automotive context. 

So this makes me wonder why there is the such a difference in the recommended highest design-load of amp for the same AWG size of wire? 


I think that, at the core, it is a question of being able to get rid of the heat created in the wire, because of the natural resistance of the wire. 

And in buildings wires can typically be very tightly enclosed, and thus, for long stretches, can be in a worst-case scenario, where the guide/code MUST guarantee that the wire simply never ever overheats (= gets warm enough to cause its surroundings to melt or even catch fire). 

Where as for wires in a car, they are typically not as enclosed (completely engulfed in insulation, concrete, wood etc.) so they are much more likely to be able to get rid of heat.


Either way, it is always wise to over-size ones wires and connectors. 


As a side note on fuses: 
For an electronics project I needed to select solutions for wires, connectors, fuses and PCB tracks. 
So I did some testing of fuses, and measured things like the voltage loss over the fuse, and monitored the fuse temperature. 


Because the car blade fuses are easy to find, I did several tests on blade fuses. 

Some of my findings about blade fuses were:

- that the get very hot, when being loaded close to their rated limit. When temperatures got over 90*C (194*F) I stopped measuring, because temperatures like that were useless for my project. 

- but for fun I did try to run a 30A fuse at a 30A load for an extended period of time.
After a few minutes I got 110*C  (230*F)  and I decided to stop, as I had not designed the test space to make sure that high temperaturs would not melt or scar anything.

I then tested the fuse being mounted differently. The first tests had the fuse mounted to a PCB. For the next test I used  a fuse-mount-on-a-wire,
s-l1600-small.jpg
and this test gave me much lower temperatures - for the fuse  - but several inches of the wire also got quite warm.  So I concluded that the wires functioned as a heat sink.

- I was able to run a blade fuse at 30-40% over its rating a very long time, and it would still not blow.  It would get hot, very hot indeed, but would not blow. 
It typically did not blow until it reached 45-50% over the rating. 


This was of cause just one mans testing. Done for some hours, one day.  So it is not conclusive of anything much. 

I did however learn that all types of fuses get hot. They all depend on melting metal somehow. And I mean literally - melting meta!
So my own conclusion was, that once the heat leaves the fuse, it must have somewhere to go, somewhere to dissipate to, without doing damage, or the entire fuse, fuse holder, connector and/or wire, can get very hot indeed. 


Likewise I discovered that blade fuses are what you call slow-blow fuses. So even for a short time overload (<50%) they will not blow, nor will they get damaged (ie. the rating stays the same).
 

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@MrAlvinDude

Now that was a very informative post, thank you, sir!

And yes, I'm using a blade fuse in my application above. I like your test, which was very interesting.

@poot_traveller
Actually, it's the perfect fuse for this application. The fuse will go before the 10 gauge cable, which is what you want. I go by the 10% rule.
 
Very informative and interesting experiment.

Your experiment has convinced me to closely monitor heat over different parts of the solar panel system when I finally get mine up and running.
 
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