Diesel engines in a van?

[CottonTexas]

I found this thread to be particularly interesting because I've considered this topic for myself about a million times.  I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the ability to run alternative fuels in a diesel (WVO) as well as being able to use things like diesel heaters.

The fact is that whether it's diesel or gas, Ford, Chevy or Dodge, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Gassers:

Chevy/GMC:  The 2003+ Express/Savanna have Vortec gas engines which I believe to be one of the best modern designs.  The predecessor was the famous Chevy small block, and is considered to be equally as reliable though not as efficient.

Dodge:  Prior to the Sprinter, Dodge never offered a diesel in a van, but their Magnum engines in the Ram Vans are based off of their highly regarded small block platform which I would also consider to be a fine engine.

Ford:  My personal politics make me a Ford guy, but sadly their Triton engine design has been problematic with all kinds of issues including cam phasers and spitting out sparkplugs, so while I've personally had good luck with my own 5.4, I can't justify an honest recommendation.  However, pre-'97 models came with highly reliable small block engines as well as the only 6-cylinder engine I would personally consider which is the iconic 300ci 4.9 I-6.

Diesels:

Chevy/GMC:  Really all I know about the Duramax is that they were designed in a joint effort between Isuzu and GM engineers and in ~2007 they began to require emissions additives.  The '83-'93 GM vans used mechanical 6.2 or 6.5 Detroit Diesel engines that were rep'ed as problematic mostly because of a faulty front engine balancer which could potentially total-out an entire engine if not caught in time, though I would consider a properly maintained Detroit to be very efficient as well as very durable. 

Ford:  Sorry, but that PowerStroke helper guy is selling something - a bulletproofing job for several thousand dollars that is, and that's exactly what it'll take to make a 6.0 reliable.  Simply put, I don't trust any of the modern PowerStroke engines, however, from 1994(1⁄2) to 2004, the renowned 7.3 PowerStroke was available, and while it's not especially fuel efficient, it has a reputation for longevity.  From 1988 to 1994(1⁄2) the mechanical International 7.3 suffered from catastrophic failure from cavitation because they're overly particular about their coolant additive levels (<---over-simplified, I know).  The 1985(1⁄2) to 1987 6.9 International engines I would consider to be the choice pick of the older Ford diesels, and 1982-1985(1⁄2) models with a 6.9 were prone to cracked engine blocks near the motor mounts. 

All things considered, you would have to see what is readily available since the diesel powered vans of yester-year are just getting older.  As it's been said, it doesn't really matter if the engine will go a million miles if the rest of the van is falling apart.  I'm sorry for the lengthy post, but it's something I thought others might find helpful since I've already done a lot of research on this topic.  Cheers,  Cotton

 

[Vagabound]

I found this thread to be particularly interesting because I've considered this topic for myself about a million times.  I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the ability to run alternative fuels in a diesel (WVO) ...

See, just when I thought my "diesel bite" was healed, you're gonna make me pick the scab off (nice mental picture, huh? ;-) ...

Lots of good info, CottonTexas.  Thanks.

OK, so let's assume a normal diesel engine has undergone whatever is needed to make it run on biodiesel.  In that new state, is it still capable of running on normal diesel without modification/reversal?

Vagabound

 

[highdesertranger]

where is Low Tech when you need him? Wolf you out there? he runs his truck off of bunker oil(used motor oil and transmission fluid). I am no expert on alternate fuels. I do know it's a lot easier on the older mechanical engines they can run on all kinds of diesel substitutes. highdesertranger

 

[29chico]

where is Low Tech when you need him?  Wolf you out there?  he runs his truck off of bunker oil(used motor oil and transmission fluid).   I am no expert on alternate fuels.  I do know it's a lot easier on the older mechanical engines they can run on all kinds of diesel substitutes.   highdesertranger

The IDI diesel Fords, that have mechanical fuel injection, have one thing in common with the GM 6.2 & 6.5 IDI diesels:  The Stanadyne rotary fuel injection pump.  Not a bad system at all.  Just a bit more in need of lubricity than the inline style of mechanical fuel injection pumps.  This is because the rotary pump has one piston to deliver high pressure to all of the injectors.  The inline style injector pumps have a high pressure piston for each cylinder.  So the potential for wear on the high pressure piston and it's bore is greater with the rotary pumps than on the inline pumps.

I like to run a bit of biodiesel in my '85 F250 4x4 with the 6.9 IH engine ( luckily I have the later block with the heavier casting) it is said that as little as 2% bioD is all that is needed to provide all of the lubricity that the old IDI diesels need since the lubricity pretty much has been taken out of currently produced petroD.  Some folks swear by using one ounce per gallon of petroD of the TW3 rated Wally World Super Tech outboard 2 cycle oil. it is about $13 a gallon.  Kind of spendy at around 10 cents per gallon for the TW3 oil when used as a supplement but cheaper than replacing the rotary injector pump.  I have first had knowledge that the TW3 oil will help to keep the wear down on the rotary fuel injection pumps.

Also notable is that parts for the injection system on these old IDI diesels with the Stanadyne rotary pumps are absolutely dirt cheap compared to injection system parts for a modern direct injected electronically controlled diesel.

 

[CottonTexas]

What little I've read, WVO needs to be heated in order to burn properly, so typically it's used in a dual tank setup where one tank would have pump diesel for starting, and used again just before killing the engine to clear the fuel lines, and a heater placed inside the WVO tank takes a few minutes to warm it up to temp.  It isn't quite as efficient as dyno-diesel, but you can't beat the price.  As stated, the older mechanically injected diesels are a lot more forgiving when it comes to what kinds of fuels might cause problems, but I am FAR from an expert here, so please don't take any of this for gospel.  Cotton

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Not my area of expertise, but I would think that the ability to run biodiesel would really only be of interest to people with a fixed base, not vagabonds.

How many places sell biodiesel, and what does it cost?

I was under the impression is was mostly a do-it-yourself thing, collecting the grease from restaurants and converting it in your own garage.

Not exactly easy for those "who wander but are not lost".

 

[CottonTexas]

I think we've confused running straight waste veggie oil with making biodiesel.  If you want to run fry grease right out of the cooker, a quick search turned up this pricy conversion kit:  GreaseCar

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

You're right.  I wasn't thinking in terms of straight waste oil.  I was familiar with bio-diesel from old Mother Earth News articles, my brother was toying with the idea of trying it to run an old Mercedes diesel car he had.

Now that you've raised the issue, just how practical is it to scrounge waste oil from strange restaurants while traveling around the country?  Know anybody who's actually doing it successfully?

Can you have a waste oil tank on one side, and a petroleum diesel tank on the other and switch back and forth at need?

 

[NeedAnEscape]

Can you have a waste oil tank on one side, and a petroleum diesel tank on the other and switch back and forth at need?

Yes, and some of the vehicles made in the year range where running waste oils is practical came with 2 tanks from the factory, such as 75-91 Ford vans, and for trucks the non-Powerstroke Ford diesel trucks and the late 70s/early 80s Chevy trucks could have factory dual tanks

 

[Vagabound]

... Not my area of expertise, but I would think that the ability to run biodiesel would really only be of interest to people with a fixed base, not vagabonds.  ...  How many places sell biodiesel, and what does it cost?

and

...  just how practical is it to scrounge waste oil from strange restaurants while traveling around the country?  Know anybody who's actually doing it successfully? ...

OP (but not that OP):  That's one thing that I really enjoy about your posts -- I can depend on you to be supremely practical.  

Thanks,

Vagabound

 

[Vagabound]

The IDI diesel Fords, that have mechanical fuel injection, have one thing in common with the GM 6.2 & 6.5 IDI diesels:  The Stanadyne rotary fuel injection pump.  Not a bad system at all.  Just a bit more in need of lubricity than the inline style of mechanical fuel injection pumps.  This is because the rotary pump has one piston to deliver high pressure to all of the injectors.  The inline style injector pumps have a high pressure piston for each cylinder.  So the potential for wear on the high pressure piston and it's bore is greater with the rotary pumps than on the inline pumps.

I like to run a bit of biodiesel in my '85 F250 4x4 with the 6.9 IH engine ( luckily I have the later block with the heavier casting) it is said that as little as 2% bioD is all that is needed to provide all of the lubricity that the old IDI diesels need since the lubricity pretty much has been taken out of currently produced petroD.  Some folks swear by using one ounce per gallon of petroD of the TW3 rated Wally World Super Tech outboard 2 cycle oil. it is about $13 a gallon.  Kind of spendy at around 10 cents per gallon for the TW3 oil when used as a supplement but cheaper than replacing the rotary injector pump.  I have first had knowledge that the TW3 oil will help to keep the wear down on the rotary fuel injection pumps.

Also notable is that parts for the injection system on these old IDI diesels with the Stanadyne rotary pumps are absolutely dirt cheap compared to injection system parts for a modern direct injected electronically controlled diesel.

Hi 29chico,

Of course, not necessary, but if you could squeeze that text above really hard, and condense it to a few "news you can use" bullet statements for the diesel-impaired, like me, that would be helpful.

Vagabound

 

[Grizzly708]

In general, I've gotten the impression -- right or wrong -- that avoiding diesel engines is a good idea.  Reason:  As far as I can tell, diesel engines are more expensive, for routine maintenance and for repairs, harder to locate a decent mechanic, and although they last longer than gas engines, end up being more trouble/cost that the average bear wants to deal with.

In addition to getting opinions on whether that above is right or wrong, I'd like some thoughts on a particular class of vehicle.  

I can see how that would be true for very large trucks (tractor trailer) and even buses.  However, I'm wondering how true it is for the much smaller size of diesel engine that would likely be in, for example, a Chevy 3500 cargo van, roughly year 2000?

Any info appreciated.

Vagabound

I know this is an old post but....

The overlooked thing about diesels in general is the rest of the vehicle. Age is age, your diesel engine may be good for 500,000 mIles before you need a new one or a rebuild. That's awesome! Or is it? You now have a vehicle that has a whole lotta miles on it. The wheel bearings, brake hardware, brakelines, shock mounts, and everything else has more metal fatigue than they were designed for, borderline dangerous to say the least.  I have seen this in 200+ demolition derbies. You could find older "real steel" cars with tons of miles and didn't run. I would put my own engine and transmission in either way. Metal fatigue would show up on the track as parts started breaking off. The same thing happened with low mile cars that sat 10 to 15 years. Rust finds its way into every area as it sits. Ok, in conclusion my point being is the high cost of diesel fuel and repair worth it? Not to me as the rest of the vehicle is worn out before the engine.

 

[speedhighway46]

I have a Ford Excursion which I bought new in 2003; it has 180,000 miles on it. The engine has been pretty good maintenance wise, but the front end has been problematic. The underside is rusty and the body is starting to show its age here and there. The rear bumper is almost rusted through.

I have this truck serviced by the local Ford dealer every 5000 miles. Only occasionally can I get out of that place for less than $500. Most times it's over $1000.

I bought this truck specifically for its towing capacity. I owned a printing equipment rigging and moving service and it did do everything I expected of it. The vehicle was never abused.

Unless you have a specific need filled by having a Diesel engine, I would advise against buying one.

Plus, There are many more gas powered vans and pickups available on the market. This means broader selection and lower prices.

Just my opinion . . .