CRL style "free" electricity

[scottorious]

Power draw for a house battery compared to an electrical vehicle is quite minimal, as is the duration of connection.  IF it is legal for an EV there is no reason to **presuppose** that it is not legal otherwise - especially with non vehicle specific plugs.  I think it is of limited utility, but definitely not something to discourage.  Electric availability is changing, that's a very good thing, and we have a say in how it does so.

Thanks for making me feel like less of a sociopath for not feeling bad about this. I actually just watched Bob's latest video about the most simple way to get power and he just mentions buying a cheap marine battery and an inverter. The next step if someone lacks the ability to connect to the vehicle would just be a simple charger and a legal place to plug in. I thought it was sound advice, I've been wrong before though.

 

[RVTravel]

If there is no sign, you are good to go, or will get away with it when you contest your ticket. I was curious so googled images of EV charging stations. Many do have signs stating for EV charging only. We all know what that means and does not mean. Good luck!!!!!!

 

[kllcbosmetris]

There are also adapters for J1772 plugs to NEMA 14-50 and then from NEMA 14-50 to NEMA 5-15/20R. 

Could you talk a bit about these adapters? With those adapters, could you charge a lithium battery bank from an EV set up? In other words, do these adapters adjust the high voltage coming from an EV-station to a safe loadable power for your lithium battery bank  ... or are they just switching/adapting the plug inlet configuration just so you can plug in?

P.S. Is there an adapter that is the opposite of "16-32A Adjustable 120-240V Charger EVSE" which seems to take the 120v and turn into a EV-pluggable power?

 

[scottorious]

Could you talk a bit about these adapters? With those adapters, could you charge a lithium battery bank from an EV set up? In other words, do these adapters adjust the high voltage coming from an EV-station to a safe loadable power for your lithium battery bank  ... or are they just switching/adapting the plug inlet configuration just so you can plug in?

These certainly aren't a cheap solution but if you check out www.modularevpower.com you'll see some different options. John is more knowledgeable than I when it comes to all the lithium stuff. The J1772 EV stations are not just a simply extension cord with a fancy plug and requires some brains to tell the station to turn on. These adapters tell the station to supply power and the NEMA 14-50 outlet is then hot with 240V they are not in fact chargers but just power stations for the cars on-board charger. Presumably you could use a 240 volt charger to charge lithium batteries(using salvage EV cells might not be the best at present).

 

[highdesertranger]

I would never plug into an outlet without permission from the owner or their employee. I don't care what any website says. if there is an outlet, someone is paying the bill. I get water from spigots outside of business's all the time, but never without asking first. the few times I have been denied the business have told me where to get water legally sometimes free sometimes dirt cheap. CRVL does not encourage stealing no matter how you want to spin it. highdesertranger

 

[scottorious]

***Deleted post. I meant this to be helpful. I didn't intend to encourage stealing. The most Illegal thing I've ever done was keep chickens in an unapproved "livestock shelter". My judgement might have been off on this and I apologize. Please don't take my words as encouragement to break the law. Again, sorry and thanks for posting.

 

[John61CT]

Some will consider it taking advantage, since the owner's intention is to subsidize use of electric vehicles.

No point in arguing the morality further, won't change anyone's mind.

The legality is another issue.

And being allowed, not getting hassled about it yet a third.

My point is a practical one, if you're going to do it, keep it quiet or "tragedy of the commons" that's why we can't have nice stuff anymore, too many people doing it will spoil it for everyone.

No one here knows how to help you either, go to the EV forums maybe over there they do.

 

[kllcbosmetris]

I agree OP's 'free electricity' title and overnight boondocking suggestion might be a bit misguided but the website he suggested is useful to many vandwellers nonetheless. If you actually go to that website and do a 120v-plug screen, you will see that most of those locations charge a fee (i.e. have to stay in a hotel to use the spot or pay preflight parking for $17.50/day to get to that floor) for the 120v usage. So, automatically inserting 'stealing' label anytime this topic comes up is just wrong. Not everyone interested in charging technology is trying to 'steal' as the implication goes. If you are employed and your employer's parking garage is providing outlets in the private garage, for example, that is not stealing. That's no different than charging your personal phone in an office outlet. It is puzzling that this forum is full of people talking about where to get a "free wifi" (guess what, it is not 'free'  ... starbucks is not providing public service wifi just so you can upload videos in their parking lot) or where to get this and that service free of charge -- and most of those services are not really free; you are just talking about how to get it for free. Yet, every time this topic comes up stealing comments show up right away. Do you spend at least $17.50 every night you stay in a Walmart parking lot? Do you buy a $4 coffee every time you check your e-mail from a Starbucks wifi? What is with the double standard? How is this different than paying X amount at a campsite and using their electric hook up. The way I see it, if you are paying for a service that happens to come with a plug-in perk, then it is not stealing. Let's ease up on the implication.

 

[Van Man Dave]

Those folks who live in vehicles are by definition also parasites because they live on and use streets that they aren't paying property taxes for. I didn't realize what I was suggesting would be so offensive. I'm not forced to live in a way that bends the rules. I'm only trying to help those folks that are.

This is not true at all. Please check your facts.

We pay road tax every time we buy gasoline.

 

[gallica]

This is not true at all. Please check your facts.

We pay road tax every time we buy gasoline.

that's not exactly true where I live in the PNW.  A major part of the bureau of transportation's funding (ie maintaining the streets and roads ) comes out of the general fund. the general fund includes property taxes, with all the bonds and levies. also, if you are using the public library for 'free' wifi, I am actually paying for that.

 

[scottorious]

My facts are right, property tax (in my location anyway) helps to fund the roads. Someone skirting the law in some areas(by living in a vehicle) and expecting others to pay the brunt of the cost for roads would be, by definition, parasitic. Not to mention the other services that vehicle dwellers would expect if needed such as the fire department and police force or even stopping by the public library for some WiFi or spending the afternoon in a city park, all of those are funded in part by property tax. I went to a public school that was funded by property tax, it is somewhat parasitic to reap the benefit of public school and then skirt the responsibility of paying for the next generations. I have no problem with vehicle dwellers as I aspire to be one but we are essentially skirting some of the responsibility for maintaining society. I'm not really a fan of property tax, or income tax for that matter but until we switch to a tax system based soley on consumption then we are expecting to get the benefits of society without contributing like those who pay property tax. This is all based soley on my community, I imagine that other communities could be entirely different. My point for the whole thread was just that if someone was forced into this situation and couldn't afford the proper gear then maybe this database would provide a means to get some juice so they could start to reestablish their life. Not encouraging anyone to flagrantly break the law though.

 

[John TF]

John.....   you mean limited to 20 amps

15 amps in household use it just lights.

You need to go to the hardware store & check out what is available , the standard household outlet is rated at 15 amps , and that means from the outlet to the breaker are rated for a max of 15 amps , and means that not more than a total of power / amps on that circuit ---- if you have a room with an outlet on each wall x 4 , you should not plugin 4 - 1,500 watt space heaters .
You need to be familiar with Ohms law , in this case 1,500 watt space heater divided by 120vac = 12.5 amps .
So in that same room , you plugin 4 - 1,500 watt space heaters , your going to be drawing 4 x 12.5 amps = 50 amps --- this is going to try to pull 50 amps from a breaker that is rated at 15 amps , this is also going to overload the wiring between the outlets & breaker , worse case if the breaker is not working as it should [ turning off power when overloaded --- more than 15 amps ] then you will almost for sure burn-up the wiring between the outlet & breaker --- if not start a house fire !
Same thing with some of these outlet adapters , I have seen where you can get an adapter to go from a standard 15 amp to a 30 amp [ and even to 50 amp ] , this will allow you to unsafely put a 50 amp load , on a 15 amp circuit , hopefully the breaker will turn off power .

A link to show just some variety of plugs - http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/dept_id_963.htm

This is what codes are for --- for those that do not know --- to keep them from damage , injury or death .
The outlet your looking at should not allow you to plug in more than the circuit can handle - the circuit is everything in the chain --- the outlet / outlets = total on that circuit , wiring to breaker , and breaker .

 

[tx2sturgis]

We pay road tax every time we buy gasoline.

Except, ironically, EV owners do NOT help with road taxes.

This is one reason that some states are looking at road taxes and/or fees assessed by VMT. 

Vehicle Miles Traveled.

Seems only fair, but we probably will not get a consensus on this, especially from EV owners.

 

[scottorious]

I would love to see a shift to taxes based on consumption. So I'd agree to it!

 

[John61CT]

Long as the commercial operators pay their fair share - the vast majority, not just consumers.

Tax must be based on vehicle weight as well as miles traveled

Historically it's just been a huge subsidy of the trucking biz, basically corporate welfare.

In fact I say just let commercial users subsidize all road costs for a century or so.

All gets passed through to consumers in the end anyway.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Long as the commercial operators pay their fair share - the vast majority, not just consumers.

Tax must be based on vehicle weight as well as miles traveled

Historically it's just been a huge subsidy of the trucking biz,  basically corporate welfare.

In fact I say just let commercial users subsidize all road costs for a century or so.

All gets passed through to consumers in the end anyway.

John, the average OTR truck and trailer pays over $10,000 per year in road taxes. 

That's not counting all the millions of other local and regional trucks. 

Trust me, we all drive on roads that are financed in large part by commercial trucks paying for them.

And yes, that cost is passed on to the shippers, who pass that cost along to the purchasers and consumers.

 

[John61CT]

The user pays myth was never true, but certainly has become less and less true since Eisenhower.

More that half the cost of building and maintaining highways now comes from general tax pools rather than from gasoline taxes or other “user fees” on drivers. Down from 70% in the 60's.

Aside from gas taxes and individuals’ expenditures for their own driving, the average U.S. household pays more than $1,200 per year in taxes and other costs imposed by driving.

 

[tx2sturgis]

More that half the cost of building and maintaining highways now comes from general tax pools rather than from gasoline taxes or other “user fees” on drivers. Down from 70% in the 60's.

And that general tax pool is being supported in part by diverted highway tax revenues that go into the general fund.
 
So the numbers are misleading.

If the mods will allow me a bit more of this thread detour:

The average OTR truck runs about 120,000 miles a year. This is solo, not team, which run a lot more per year.

And the average OTR truck today gets around 6 mpg, averaged year round, all roads, all weather, and including consumption during idling. Some use more fuel, some use less.

But that's about 20,000 gallons of diesel per year.

Motor fuels have federal and state taxes added in. For diesel it is about 45c per gallon, average, nationwide.
20,000 gallons times 45c, and you get $9000 a year.

Now add in toll roads, and the amount goes up. 

Multiply the mileage for team trucks, and the amount goes WAY up.
 
Add in state taxes on parts and labor for repairs, taxes on oil, tires, etc, it goes up. 

Then add in all the other local and regional trucks, millions of them, and multiply all of that fuel consumption times the mileages they run every day, and the numbers are staggering. 

The transportation industry is heavily taxed and heavily regulated. 

No getting around that. Its fact.

With that, I rest my case.

Major detour averted. 

 

[scottorious]

I like learning things so I appreciate this detour!

 

[Van Man Dave]

My facts are right, property tax (in my location anyway) helps to fund the roads. Someone skirting the law in some areas(by living in a vehicle) and expecting others to pay the brunt of the cost for roads would be, by definition, parasitic. Not to mention the other services that vehicle dwellers would expect if needed such as the fire department and police force or even stopping by the public library for some WiFi or spending the afternoon in a city park, all of those are funded in part by property tax. I went to a public school that was funded by property tax, it is somewhat parasitic to reap the benefit of public school and then skirt the responsibility of paying for the next generations. I have no problem with vehicle dwellers as I aspire to be one but we are essentially skirting some of the responsibility for maintaining society. I'm not really a fan of property tax, or income tax for that matter but until we switch to a tax system based soley on consumption then we are expecting to get the benefits of society without contributing like those who pay property tax. This is all based soley on my community, I imagine that other communities could be entirely different. My point for the whole thread was just that if someone was forced into this situation and couldn't afford the proper gear then maybe this database would provide a means to get some juice so they could start to reestablish their life. Not encouraging anyone to flagrantly break the law though.

I apologize if my previous post came off in an inflammatory nature. I had just woken up and posted this.

I can easily see that you are not promoting breaking laws or gross negligence of statutes. 

Although we do pay tax for every gallon of gasoline we buy, I do understand what you are saying here and I do not disagree with most  of it

Only my opinion->  Responsibility for maintaining a society is up to the members of said society.  

Again, my apologies if I was crude earlier, I appreciate the discussion and interesting post.

VMD