Considering battery's for the future

[666JTK666]

Howdy folks,

I have reciently purchased a champ generator and am currently converting it to electric start and doing a few other mods.
I have just installed a front mouted tow hitch to my van and have a cargo carrier in the mail.
I will building a enclosure to bolt into the cargo carrier to hold my generator and aux fuel tank.

what I would like to ask about is batteries , in my mind FLA while being the cheapest have some downsides
1. outgassing not sure if this is really a "big-deal"
2. slow awful acceptance of charge.
3. heavy

next canadite are the AGM type. 
1. fab acceptance rate
2. no gassing if not abused.
3. finicky to charge need to do more research in this area.

gel/tppl I wont even consider.

there is a relatively new carbon foam battery that sounds perfect but cost serious mega bux.
and then there is lipo they are pretty awsome in many respects but I plan to spend a lot of time in the future in colder climate conditions and my understanding is that you can't charge lipo batterys in cold climates.

So my actual question for the tribe  
1. is my thinking above correct ?
2. what would you consider the best bang for the buck battery's to be.

Ok how will I be useing these batterys.
I want to power a large led tv and a desktop computer system probably somewhere around 800w for about 6 hr per day.
most of the time the system will run off my generator but when I cant run the generator (noise issue) I will want to run the system.

all comments welcome and appreciated.

 

[user 37446]

Others far more knowledgeable will soon reply however:

1 - read up on the electrical subforum or search "batteries"

your comments

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]1. is my thinking above correct ?  pretty much yes except recharging AGM is not so "finicky"[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]2. what would you consider the best bang for the buck battery's to be.  Almost all will tell you a true deep cycle such as a golf cart set (two 6 volts wired in series)[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]3 - "[size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Ok how will I be useing these batterys.[/font]
[/font][/size]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I want to power a large led tv and a desktop computer system probably somewhere around 800w for about 6 hr per day.[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]most of the time the system will run off my generator but when I cant run the generator (noise issue) I will want to run the system."[/font][/font][/size]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You would be better off with a laptop vs a power hungry old desktop IMHO[/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Your needs don't seem excessive, I don't see the great demand for generator unless you don't plan on any solar.[/font][/font][/size]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"and then there is lipo they are pretty awsome in many respects but I plan to spend a lot of time in the future in colder climate conditions and my understanding is that you can't charge lipo batterys in cold climates."  [size=small]yes, there are warnings about recharging Lithium Ion in colder temperatures, under 32 degrees I believe.  "[size=small][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Advancements are being made to charge Li-ion below freezing temperatures. Charging is indeed possible with most lithium-ion cells but only at very low currents. According to research papers, the allowable charge rate at –30[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]°[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]C (–22[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]°[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]F) is 0.02C. At this low current, the charge time would stretch to over 50 hours, a time that is deemed impractical. There are, however, specialty Li-ions that can charge down to –10°C (14°F) at a reduced rate[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]." from Battery University  http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...igh_and_low_temperatures[/font][/SIZE][/size][/font]

 

[666JTK666]

Others far more knowledgeable will soon reply however:

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]2. what would you consider the best bang for the buck battery's to be.  Almost all will tell you a true deep cycle such as a golf cart set (two 6 volts wired in series)[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]3 - "[size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Ok how will I be useing these batterys.[/font]
[/font][/size]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I want to power a large led tv and a desktop computer system probably somewhere around 800w for about 6 hr per day.[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]most of the time the system will run off my generator but when I cant run the generator (noise issue) I will want to run the system."[/font][/font][/size]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You would be better off with a laptop vs a power hungry old desktop IMHO[/font][/font][/size]

I get that a laptop is in most respect's is clearly a superior vandweller choice indeed I am using a laptop now for my day to day use, unfortunately for myself I am addicted to computer games thus I want a desktop computer system that I can upgrade and repair as needed.
Also there is Zero possibility for solar with my van, The generator is my primary source of power I will be using that for running my Air conditioner and battery charger for the system. I don't store or prepare food in my van pretty much a fast food only guy at this time.
I have been leaning at 4 6v trojan FLA but thought I would get some input. 
Thank you for your comments and advice.

 

[user 37446]

I get that a laptop is in most respect's is clearly a superior vandweller choice indeed I am using a laptop now for my day to day use, unfortunately for myself I am addicted to computer games thus I want a desktop computer system that I can upgrade and repair as needed.
Also there is Zero possibility for solar with my van, The generator is my primary source of power I will be using that for running my Air conditioner and battery charger for the system. I don't store or prepare food in my van pretty much a fast food only guy at this time.
I have been leaning at 4 6v trojan FLA but thought I would get some input. 
Thank you for your comments and advice.

On YouTube several posters have stated that they have been successful running the newer energy star compliant 5000 btu room sized air conditioners off of a 2000 watt inverter generator.  These air conditioners need between 12-15 amps for the start up unless you have a hard start capacitor. 
Also, since most 1000 watt generators with built-in battery chargers are limited to 8 amps output, that won't be enough for a big FLA deep cycle battery system as you describe. At a C20 charge rate, you need a big battery charger, something capable of 50-70 amps input. They are not common.  Biggest "portable" chargers I have seen are 40 amp, which would take a longer time.
 
Potek 10/20/40 Amp Smart Battery Charger and Maintainer with 50-Amp Battery Clips

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In Stock.
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Size: 40A

• •10/20/40 Amp Smart Charger: suitable for all types of 12V lead acid batteries,including Gel and AGM.Everything from the capabilities to the safety features to the exterior outlook of this smart charger was designed with the consumer in mind.
• •Optimal function: Despite choosing three charging rate manually,the optimal fuction can automatically select the charge rate best fit for your type of battery
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• •What You Get: Potek 10/20/40 Amp Smart Charger, user manual, our 18-month warranty and friendly customer service.

Others could chime in about that.Calling John61, Sternwake, TxtoSturgis among others...

 

[DLTooley]

Off gassing is only an issue when charging FLA. Lithium are small enough to be stored in your living space. Your analysis is good. Go with the Trojans or the Duracell and wait for lithium’s to drop in price.

You’ll want to watch both your charging and load especially when you first get started.

 

[John61CT]

and wait for lithium’s to drop in price.

Don't hold your breath.

Probably not for decades

 

[Matlock]

Don't hold your breath.

Probably not for decades

You may be right but... once they find the chemistry to replace the cobalt the price of lithium batteries will fall. Spending $ for any dino-less fuel option is what's driving everything toady.

Just my 2 cents

 

[John61CT]

But demand will continue to climb likely (much) faster than supply.

I think more open-hardware BMS systems will make DIY adoption easier, most regular buyers now get these very expensive packaged proprietary systems.

 

[jonyjoe303]

lifepo4 is the future if you can afford it. Just keep the batteries inside. And it is perfect if you are going to charge with a generator, it will take maximun amps up to 90 percent before the bms cutsoff, 90 percent is good enough for lithium. If its in perfect balance it might even go higher before cutting off.

I had 2 x 110ah lifepo4 and my next project is a bigger 220 ah lifepo4. Can't see myself going back to lead acid.

Something that most people don't consider is how much the batteries weigh down a vehicule. I was barely getting 10 mpg on my astrovan, I finally got rid of all my batteries (about 3 agms/3 lithiums over 140 pounds), kept only 1x 110 ah lifepo4 (32 pounds) , a small fullriver 28 ah agm for jumpstarting (25 pounds) and a 33 ah 11.1 volt lithium battery pack (15 pounds), I also took out the 2 rear bucket seat in my van, and remove alot of stuff I never used, instead of carrying 20 liters of water for my swampcooler I only carry 6 liters now. 

The van feels faster now, stops quicker. Not carrying around 200 to 300 hundred extra pounds will make a big difference. Especially for my poor 4.3 liter 6 cylinder which has seen better days.

 

[Weight]

Lithium will soon be in very short supply, world wide. The price of batteries will stay high. For your first set of learner batteries, use golf cart six volt wired into 12 volt bank. I have six EGC2 batteries in my living space with no problem. I use a small fan to keep the fume dispersed while charging. Agreed some may be hyper-sensitive to the battery charging odor.

 

[frater secessus]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]pretty much yes except recharging AGM is not so "finicky"[/font]

Sternwake says otherwise:

AGMs are finicky princesses regarding their recharging. When deeply cycled they really want higher recharging currents, and it is more important to return these batteries to 100% charged more often than their flooded counterparts. [source]

The AGMs are more finicky, But if one can easily meet their needs, then that finickyness is mitigated. [source]

These expensive AGMS are more finicky as to charge voltages, compared to golf cart batteries. [source]

[font=Verdana,Arial,sans-serif]AGMs can indeed charge faster, if one has the higher amp charging sources to take advantage of this high amp acceptance.  This is not a factor with low and slow solar, and actually detrimental as AGMS do not enjoy the low and slow.  They like a quenching when depleted.  Solar cannot quench.  They do not want a garden hose to put out their fire, they want a firehose.[/font] [source]

True 100% charges are more important with AGM batteries than flooded.  One  gets to pay more for this 'privilege' of meeting the requirements of an expensive princess of a battery. and if not treated like a princess it will give up quickly.  But meet its minimums and it can be the super battery that most people assume an AGM battery to be because of its larger price. [source]

AGMs should not be considered wet battery replacements unless the charging sources can closer approach their greedy needs.  If these are not considered the 2x$ AGM will not live as long  in the same usage as the wet/flooded Marine battery at half its price. [source]

Agms like the occassional high amp recharge from their most depleted state and even more so when the charge is not terminated until they reach 100% ASAP.  A high amp recharge to true full from a deep depletion level, is like the AGM battery reset, to maximum remaining capacity.  [source]

High $ AGM like Odyssey and Lifeline and Northstar really require Large charging currents when deeply cycled, and as such do not make good solar batteries.  [source]

The deeper the AGM battery is discharged, the more it requires high amp recharging, or at least the ability to occasionally be able to recharge it at a relatively high rate, 20 to 30 amps per 100 AH of capacity. [source]

I can tell you definitively that a regular AGM PSOC cycled deeply nightly, is not long for this world.  4 cycles without a full recharge on My Northstar AGM, and performance loss becomes Obvious to me.  When I do need to 'reset' the capacity i have to high amp recharge it from its most depleted state, AND hold 14.46v @77f for well in excess of 4 hours before amps taper to 0.425.  The other day required 10 hours at 14.4v before amps tapered to this level. Without a plug in charging source, i would have had to of driven to SantaCruz(8 to 10  hours away)  before amps tapered to that level. [source]

All batteries perform best when regularly fully charged.  AGMs seem to need this more so than flooded batteries.  Meet their needs and they are great batteries.  Expecting that  their price imbues magical resistance to improper charging, and you will weep for your lost dollars. [source]

I'd not recommend high$$ AGMs for a 12 volt newbie. If one really wants such a high$$ battery, then one should really know how to not overdischarge them, and have charging sources applied which can meet their needs, as well as the ability to determine when their needs need to be met ASAP. [source]

etc

 

[John61CT]

AGM is certainly more "finicky" than flooded.

But a **lot** more forgiving than GEL

Also compared to LFP, if you are striving for longevity.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . and wait for lithium’s to drop in price.

Don't hold your breath.

I agree:

http://euanmearns.com/lithium-reserves-use-future-demand-and-price/

 

[John61CT]

Lithium's the least of it, other rare(r) minerals supplies are much more restricted.

But it's the skyrocketing demand is the biggest factor.

 

[MrNoodly]

You forgot one question: Will how will a box on the front of my rig affect engine cooling?

 

[666JTK666]

You forgot one question: Will how will a box on the front of my rig affect engine cooling?

Since this box is going to be a bit "out there" in front of the van I don't think it will be much of a problem , of course I could be wrong I will just have to see.
My cargo carrier arived today but i could not swing buy to pick it up, will have it tomorrow.
Thank you everyone for your input, I do appreciate it.

 

[KingArthur]

Howdy folks,

I have reciently purchased a champ generator and am currently converting it to electric start and doing a few other mods.
I have just installed a front mouted tow hitch to my van and have a cargo carrier in the mail.
I will building a enclosure to bolt into the cargo carrier to hold my generator and aux fuel tank.

what I would like to ask about is batteries , in my mind FLA while being the cheapest have some downsides
1. outgassing not sure if this is really a "big-deal"
2. slow awful acceptance of charge.
3. heavy

next canadite are the AGM type. 
1. fab acceptance rate
2. no gassing if not abused.
3. finicky to charge need to do more research in this area.

gel/tppl I wont even consider.

there is a relatively new carbon foam battery that sounds perfect but cost serious mega bux.
and then there is lipo they are pretty awsome in many respects but I plan to spend a lot of time in the future in colder climate conditions and my understanding is that you can't charge lipo batterys in cold climates.

So my actual question for the tribe  
1. is my thinking above correct ?
2. what would you consider the best bang for the buck battery's to be.

Ok how will I be useing these batterys.
I want to power a large led tv and a desktop computer system probably somewhere around 800w for about 6 hr per day.
most of the time the system will run off my generator but when I cant run the generator (noise issue) I will want to run the system.

all comments welcome and appreciated.

Best bang for your buck is FLA by far, undisputed. They are durable, take abuse, and even if you have to upsize your solar system they're probably still more cost effective. I live with two of them in my van unvented and I'm not dead yet. I just take caution that when they are indeed charging I've got a window open or something. Hydrogen Sulfide is only produced when the battery is damaged or not maintained. They do produce hydrogen when charging but is really isn't that much. IMO, people are paranoid and I'm still alive so... 

All that being said, if I had the money, I would 1000% go for LiFeP04 batteries. They are amazing. Amazing charge efficiency. Amazing cycle life. Amazing energy to weight. Super safe. No maintenance. Honestly if you've got the cash to buy and set up a LiFeP04 system you've got the cash to put them inside your rig and keep them above freezing year round. A webasto is an afterthought after the money that needs dropped to get that system going.  

At this point in my mind the most sane option is still to get FLA's and put them in a vented box like a good citizen so that you can sleep at night and not wonder sometimes if you're going to go into cardiac arrest because of H2S poisoning or be blown to bits by just good ol regular hydrogen 

 

[John61CT]

> A webasto is an afterthought after the money that needs dropped to get that system going.  

Have you got sources for reasonably priced ones?

I'm looking at $800+ installed

 

[Weight]

There seems to be a common over reaction to the dangers of flooded batteries. The hydrogen build up can be a problem inside the cells. A problem if the batteries are sealed inside a box. The gasses given off with a properly charging, maintained battery, oxygen and hydrogen. Minuscule amounts of any sulfides.

 

[John61CT]

Some people are more sensitive than others, even if just minding the occasional smell.

But yes, only a safety issues if in an unvented box so the H accummulates