City ordinances--what's their motive?

[Duck]

allowing a park up zone with a toilet and a garbage bin is a little different from an rv park. With the increase in this lifestyle it might be wiser for councils to dance with them instead of waging war. No one has ever won a war.

Believe me, I would like that be true, but unfortunately, the same people who make a mess when there is nothing provided abuse it all the more when there are facilities available. There are 2 examples of this in just the short time period I've been a live-aboard, what used to be reasonably accessible is now off limits, and there's no excuse for the behaviors that led to that. Part of the problem is it's not about winning the war you're thinking of. Looking like you're doing something, and not spending money is far easier than spending money and dealing with the political backlash for enabling it, the actual existence of vandwellers is not important, votes and complaints are.

Who's going to pick up the garbage the people who can't be bothered to lift the lid on the dumpster and so just chuck it out the back door onto the street? How do you prevent(and why would you, if it's available for all, supplied at the taxpayers' expense?) residents who live in houses from avoiding fees by dumping large amounts of refuse in the bin. Who repairs the bathrooms when they get destroyed, when someone plugs the toilet or poops in the sink?

It's easier to issue a blanket ban, and put all the tools in place to make it unappealing to continue, enforce them occasionally and otherwise ignore the situation. The people who don't cause the mess will often move on when this happens, as they have something to lose. The people with nothing to lose will continue with the same activities because the consequences they may face don't really disrupt their lifestyle. Once it's on the radar, and they get familiar with and start looking for signs of people living in vehicles, things will change in a hurry, and not for the better.

 

[Unchained]

These places already exist. They then take those services, the space and the cost of servicing, and a profit margin and charge people to be there and call them RV parks or campsites.

I suspect that much of the problem here is that 'profit margin'.
A friend and I stayed at the KOA in Visalia, CA awhile back (he needed wifi for classes he was taking). $35 a day for a tent site with a bit of power, a hosebib and daytime temps of 105F. For an RV site, the going rate was $50/ day. Wifi was incredibly iffy. It sucked my wallet dry to be there for 3 days.

On the flip side, a local charity opened a 'safe parking lot' at a church a few miles from here awhile back. It was an instant hit with folks who had lost their homes, moved their families into their vehicles and needed a safe haven. They had porta potties, water, waste disposal, strict rules of conduct, curfews, counseling, on site security, you name it. No good for most of us, as the rules required that you be attempting to 'transition' to traditional housing, but they were helping a lot of the fallen middle class.

Well, you guessed it. The neighboring home owners complained, and the city council landed on the project with both feet. IIRC, the charity eventually 'won' after a massive expenditure of funds on lawyers.

The worst part is that many of the people that the exalted home owners were so afraid of/ disgusted by were actually their own former neighbors, using the church parking lot in order to keep their jobs or keep their kids in school.

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

Aren't they making the assumption that people vandwelling are somehow doing these already illegal activities? If they think people in houses dont litter or use the bathroom on the street need to go out after the bars close.

Its already illegal to litter and relieve yourself in public, why should further ordinances targeting someone living differently be necessary. Enforce the laws that already apply to everyone rather than ban people from living differently than you. Homless guy craps on your lawn, he needs to be dealt with the same as a homeowner dropping a duece on his neighbors lawn. Dont pass a sneaky ordinace designed to effectively get rid of all homeless people.

Some of these ordinances are fueled by greed as well. Local rv parks, hotel owners etc, even shelters, stand to lose. The city stands to gain a lot of revenue, especially that juicy out of town revenue from citations.

A lot of it is just fear of something different as well.

There is a program, i think in washington, that provides parking spots for vandwellers. I also want to point out not all vandwellers are mooching public facilities. A lot pay taxes, have before retiring. I think they have the rights to use a public restroom or trash can just like an other citizen. They also bring revenue in that otherwise wouldnt be there just like those much more desirable 'regular tourists'.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

In reality I think the traditional family with kids and house etc are getting the free ride. They have these nasty little critters send them to schools that are partly payed for, by those that don't have kids, playgrounds, soccer fields, swimming pools, libraries, universities, stadiums, baby bonuses etc etc all subsidised not user pay, not to mention, the extra natural resouces, the crazy demands they make on the tax system, the extra garbage removal, extra water and sewage that they use up all subsidised by those with no children, the nuisance that their teenagers put the rest of the community through all at a time when we have too many people on the planet, they are so selfish, then they have the gall to complain about somebody scrounging a parking spot on their street that they haven't even paid for all the time telling everyone they are paying taxes, the traditional family rates in the same place as corporations the way they get away with a free ride at our expense, it they started paying what they really used, the story would be different. just saying.....

 

[Canine]

Kurbmaster, talking about garbage and schools. I lived directly next to a highschool for a few years. Around 3:00 when the kids got out of school, they threw their garbage on the ground and after the traffic milled down, the gulls and ravens would swarm in for lunch. The school is huge with many hundreds of kids and that is a lot of garbage every day. Then if it is windy, the folks on the east side of the school have to pick up a lot of it. And since smoking isn't allowed on school grounds, they migrate off school property, smoke their cigarettes, then throw the butts in the neighbors yards. Some teachers did this, too. The kids also have knocked down one fence by leaning on it, which the homeowner had to pay for. The kids sometimes go into the yards and use the picnic tables and front porches to smoke from.

Too little is done about this and I don't know why. :huh: If I were to do what those kids and some of those teachers do, I would have a world of legal trouble. It is what it is, suppose.

 

[Donedirtcheap]

In reality I think the traditional family with kids and house etc are getting the free ride. They have these nasty little critters send them to schools that are partly payed for, by those that don't have kids, playgrounds, soccer fields, swimming pools, libraries, universities, stadiums, baby bonuses etc etc all subsidised not user pay, not to mention, the extra natural resouces, the crazy demands they make on the tax system, the extra garbage removal, extra water and sewage that they use up all subsidised by those with no children, the nuisance that their teenagers put the rest of the community through all at a time when we have too many people on the planet, they are so selfish, then they have the gall to complain about somebody scrounging a parking spot on their street that they haven't even paid for all the time telling everyone they are paying taxes, the traditional family rates in the same place as corporations the way they get away with a free ride at our expense, it they started paying what they really used, the story would be different. just saying.....

Interesting points Kurb. I have pondered some of those things at times. Maybe the people that raise the kids are being compensated for doing the sometimes torturous and tiring job of raising the next generation of people/taxpayers. I would also say to Canine that I hear every word you are saying. I lived near a high school. I believe a lot of that is the liberal approach to raising kids.
I remember a gym teacher who was a very good influence on me. If you were messing up he would make you take off a tennis shoe, tell you bend over and touch your toes and proceed to make you understand what he meant. Do that now and he would be in jail. I also didn't want my parents to find out because I would get it again.

 

[hippiechk]

I think we all seem to agree, for various reasons that the education system isn't its best now, nor was it ever.

I want to thank every teacher who tries, every parent that dreams of a better life for their kids and every kid that in spite of horrid words flying at them from their music/tv/games/society still gets up and tries to grow up somehow and find a way to contribute. For those teachers without the fortitude to try...find a new job, for the parents who have lost the dreams...look into your kids eyes and for the kids who have no hope, sometimes you just have to believe!

Can this thread get back to the topic of city ordinances because there is some pretty crazy stuff still on the books legally...yikes!

Missouri for example. Just so you know—you can't drive down the highway with an uncaged bear in your car.

When parking your elephant at a meter in Orlando Florida, be sure to deposit the same amount of change as you would for a regular motor vehicle.

TRY to stay safe all *smile*...

 

[MK7]

No community wants permanent tailgaiting parties in front nor near their houses and businesses. This is just the plain truth. And they pay a lot more taxes than you do.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

No community wants permanent tailgaiting parties in front nor near their houses and businesses. This is just the plain truth. And they pay a lot more taxes than you do.

I think you are right about tailgating parties in front of the their homes and businesses, however that empty field at the local park or the empty parking lot at the school or the soccer fields could be allocated to vandwellers after hours for the tailgate parties as you put it. I pay as much taxes as my neighbours and don't use any of those places so I would be glad to let people camp there on their way through on my dime, as long as they were respectful but I would expect that from anyone. They sit empty 90% of the time, where is the sin....

 

[MK7]

I think you are right about tailgating parties in front of the their homes and businesses, however that empty field at the local park or the empty parking lot at the school or the soccer fields could be allocated to vandwellers after hours for the tailgate parties as you put it. I pay as much taxes as my neighbours and don't use any of those places so I would be glad to let people camp there on their way through on my dime, as long as they were respectful but I would expect that from anyone. They sit empty 90% of the time, where is the sin....

I doubt you pay as much taxes as the home owners. We pay $3200/year in property tax alone last year for just a 3 bedroom single home. How much did you pay in property tax?

Personally, I wouldn't care if a church sponsored such parking venues on their lot near my house as that's what churches should do and it's a good thing. But then again, I don't know what it's like if this was occurring in my neighborhood. Traffic, noise, etc. would increase. Some people are just more picky than others. Maybe they're scared that this will spill into vandwellers parking in front of their houses and camping there, if not already happening and that's why they took actions. I certainly would call the cops if someone parked in front of my house on the public street.

 

[ccbreder]

My property tax is over 7000 year. Small town, 1890 two story, 120 x 150 lot. I get pissed when my neighbor parks in front of my house. Strangers are suspects. Most in this neighborhood will call police when strange car is parked on the street. Best not to be the strange-vehicle camping in residential neighborhoods.

 

[MK7]

Yup, this is the truth. Homeowners will call the cops. Being stealthy is the key. Most people on here seems like the responsible vandwellers, but the careless ones will ruin it all real quick.

My family know what it's like to be down on our luck. My grandfather went from being extremely wealthy, owning 8 mansions fully staffed with lived in servants, plantations, etc. to losing everything due to losing our country to the Commies...and having to flee to the USA and live in a 3 BR home with all 20-25 of us for over 2-3 years...until everyone gradually adapted and got back on our feet. Much more difficult for once, rich people with no skills, to now having to work menial jobs to make a living. No one called the cops on us because it was, kinda legal, to live 20-25 inside 1 house. But none of us ever bothered people by parking in front of their houses in a live-in van nor RV. That single house also had only ONE bathroom too.

 

[Johnny Utah]

In his blog this guy explains pretty well his thoughts on why there are laws prohibiting free sleeping and why one should go ahead and do it anyway. (btw, the rest of his site is pretty good too)

http://travel.baddalailama.com/search/label/car sleeping

For the tl;dr crowd, it's basically summed up as communities need these types of laws to deal with potential problems that may arise from vagrants, but it doesn't mean they're going to strictly enforce them on a routine basis, only if they see a problem at hand. So that means if you're not part of the problem, and nobody knows you're there, then what they don't know won't hurt them, and you'll have gotten a good night's sleep.

 

[MK7]

And cops are usually good people too. They're not out to put everyone in jail. Usually they're just fishing for drugs or warrants as many who runs from the law, lives in their vehicle and are addicts of some kind. Just answer all of their questions. No big deal. I bet cops would be sympathetic if you just told them you're down on your luck and can't afford a motel. If you had weed in the car or warrants, then yeah, definitely exercise your rights and roll the dice.

Just 2 weeks ago, I blew by a cop with a radar while doing 72mph in a 40mph zone, near a shopping center. I could have ran but pulled over. Told the cop that I had no excuse and was just being a d_ck back against this guy who boxed me in down the road. Exact words. I not only admitted to speeding in a loudass hi-performance car, but also admitted to mild road raging. Got a warning. I definitely deserved at least a lower speeding ticket and that would have been very lenient. <-- Xmas present for that double cleavers lady

 

[Lifemagician]

Most in this neighborhood will call police when strange car is parked on the street. Best not to be the strange-vehicle camping in residential neighborhoods.

Something I have done many a time. We lived in an upscale - though not wealthy - neighbourhood. Through the Neighbourhood Watch program, we were encouraged to report an unfamiliar vehicle which seemed to be parked for an extended period. Especially those with tinted windows. Police would always check it out. (One time it turned out to be a private investigator working for an insurance co.)

You never know when a vehicle is parked in your street, observing who is coming and who is going. Far too many homes are broken into while the occupants are absent.

Lifey

 

[flying kurbmaster]

don't you guys ever get company?? I am curious how many houses have been broken into on your street. I never heard of one on my street in 16 years. You guys live in the wrong neighbourhoods, it is pleasant living when you don't have to be looking out in the street watching for gangster and having a closet full of amo. have you ever considered relocating into a van so you could relocate.

 

[Canine]

Some states are better than others for property taxes. Some states institute a property tax of less than 2 tenths of a percent of their total home value while others are others are almost 2 percent of the total home value. The highest property tax is about 10 times higher than the lowest one! So it depends on where you live.

If lots were open to vandwellers, a reasonable fee could be instituted. While the "renters" wouldn't directly pay property tax, they would indirectly be paying as the land owner has to pay tax. Or if the land is owned by the city, they have to maintain it, so having more people use it for a fee could be advantageous for both parties.

Property tax isn't the only tax, either. Some states have a "bed tax" on motels. These taxes are geared toward the out-of-towners to help pay their share of taxes as they also have to pay to "live" in town even if they only "live" in town for a few days.

Income tax is a another one. If a traveler is temporarily working in a state with high income tax, then that certainly contributes to the overall tax base.

Sales tax is possibly the best example. Arizona has some killer sales tax; not sure what it is, but it is high. Montana has none.

Depends on which state, and sometimes city, you are staying in. After taking in all the information, one could make a compelling argument that vandwelling could pay as much or more in taxes than a person who directly pays property tax. That would be really hard to figure out exactly, though.

Some people pay more than their fair share and some pay far less than they should, but we all should pay in some manner. No free lunches.

 

[MK7]

don't you guys ever get company?? I am curious how many houses have been broken into on your street. I never heard of one on my street in 16 years. You guys live in the wrong neighbourhoods, it is pleasant living when you don't have to be looking out in the street watching for gangster and having a closet full of amo. have you ever considered relocating into a van so you could relocate.

Are you really serious to suggest that people with houses, who can afford it, to sell it and move into a, vehicle just like you?

Break-ins, vandalism, etc. are all possible, just about anywhere. You seem to think that looking out the window of our own home is something unusual? Could it be that the windows are there in the first place, is to provide homeowners with a freakin' VIEW? And while enjoying this, view, we see an unknown car parked in front of our house, totally legal....any normal person would still wonder if it's the neighbor's guest, or whatever. If it's there 3+ hours later, or the next day and exhibits signs of someone being inside constantly....ANY NORMAL homeowner would be concerned and call the cops.

Many people still chose to live in their houses even in high crime areas. Do you think the guy paying $7,000 per year in property tax alone is in a high crime area/crappy neighborhood? You want him to sell his house and move into a bread truck? C'mon now.

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Property tax isn't the only tax, either. Some states have a "bed tax" on motels. These taxes are geared toward the out-of-towners to help pay their share of taxes as they also have to pay to "live" in town even if they only "live" in town for a few days.

Depends on which state, and sometimes city, you are staying in. After taking in all the information, one could make a compelling argument that vandwelling could pay as much or more in taxes than a person who directly pays property tax. That would be really hard to figure out exactly, though.

You make some valid points. In general though, vandwellers would not come close to paying the same amount of taxes as homeowners though. Even if some vandwellers are the biggest spenders of all vandwellers were to be accounted for, they're still not splurging on 50" TV's, tens of thousands in furniture, fixtures, etc. that are associated with owning a home. And let's be honest, vandwellers are usually ALL, living a very frugal lifestyle....unless you count the rich ones with their $300,000 to $1,000,000 luxury RV's. But these guys will usually park in high end RV parks that charges $200+/night anyway.

And in terms of income tax, c'mon now, let's be honest. Ain't that many people (if any) paying income tax from an $80,000-200,000 salary while living in a van. Only cases of such where vandwellers having pumped significant income tax dollars into the community are very isolated ones, such as the OIL boom-towns in North Dakota. Tons of vandwelling there, but it's mostly due to the area running out of structural accommodations and workers being forced to live in their vehicles.

And again, I am all for and fully support STEALTH vandwellers who are considerate, responsible and take extra measure to not bother the homeowners.

 

[Canine]

MK7, that is true. Most of us live frugally and do not contribute as much as others. I suspect most of us in this forum at least contribute and don't leach from society. To be clear about his though, some people are disabled and can't contribute, and while that is a bummer, I am OK with supporting those who truly need it. It's the ones that abuse work comp and such that are a blight.

I can also say that a lot of communities cater to and are very welcoming to travelers and their economy is largely based on the seasonal influx of travelers. While those travelers don't pay tax directly in many cases, they certainly contribute to the local economy.

One thing many of us can claim despite contributing fewer dollars to the tax base is that we have a smaller global footprint. I find a lot of value in that.

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don't you guys ever get company?? I am curious how many houses have been broken into on your street. I never heard of one on my street in 16 years. You guys live in the wrong neighbourhoods, it is pleasant living when you don't have to be looking out in the street watching for gangster and having a closet full of amo. have you ever considered relocating into a van so you could relocate.

While my sudden change in lifestyle is primarily medical, there are other factors that help me move towards a vandwelling lifestyle. One of those compelling reasons is moving from a higher crime area to a lower crime area. I cannot wait to get back to a more laid back lifestyle with fewer crimes. I grew up like that and miss it so much. I am willing to give up a lot of stuff and live in a smaller, unorthodox home to get away from the big city life and the criminal aspects of it.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

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Are you really serious to suggest that people with houses, who can afford it, to sell it and move into a, vehicle just like you? Do you think the guy paying $7,000 per year in property tax alone is in a high crime area/crappy neighborhood? You want him to sell his house and move into a bread truck? C'mon



Yes and not only that I also suggest they should have fewer children, become a vegetarian, return his guns and get an ethical job.