City ordinances--what's their motive?

[Delta223]

Hi; anyone care to speculate the motives of the city ordinances against sleeping in your car? Seems a rather cruel law to me as I imagine most people doing this are not doing it for recreational purposes.

 

[dominique21]

In my opinion, the few bad apples (dump their trash in the street, leave excrements and other gross stuff for others to clean up) have ruined it for everyone. Many people think of people as vagrants that live in their car, and don't want them in their area. Some would say that city ordinance is for your own safety, your chances of being assaulted or robbed is higher.

 

[dfunkt]

<span style="line-height: 16px;">

Seems a rather cruel law to me as I imagine most people doing this are not doing it for recreational purposes.

<br> It would be nice to have stats on that. &nbsp;From some of the posts in this forum it seems there are a lot of fairly wealthy people living in RVs. &nbsp;I think these ordinances are aimed at getting them into campgrounds. &nbsp;There are a lot more rules and regulations designed to make people pay for comfort than those which are truly concerned with public safety. &nbsp;If these ordinances didn't exist it's not hard to imagine that many many more people would shun the high cost of shelter in favour of cheap living.</span>

 

[spd2918]

Ordinances like that are aimed at problem people like dominique wrote.&nbsp; They are not strictly enforced, rather they are used to solve problems when needed.

 

[RVTravel]

Safety or money.

 

[Willy]

&nbsp;I dunno, but every year there seems to be more 'n more 'laws' enacted to get people outta the country and into the city and, once in the city, into some spendy accommodation. ..Willy.

 

[idn88]

Beyond the stereotypical vagrant, safety, perceived as undesirable if living in your car, I do believe in some instances in that there may be legitimate complaints in that while living in your vehicle your not contributing to the tax base to pay for services your using. &nbsp;I am not talking about someone living out of their car to survive, but if someone wants to permanently park their 40 foot RV in a nice neighborhood then use the parks / libraries / beach access / whatever, and not contribute to the tax base to pay for those things, then they have a legitimate reason to tell them to move on.<br><br>However I would say this is a small number of cases, and in most cases I would say that its intolerance of anyone different than themselves, and politicians who like to write ever increasing number of laws.

 

[dusmir]

I used to work for the city near where I live, and watched some of the city administrators and public works bosses tear down a homeless man's camp. They just threw everything in a dumpster. He didn't cause any harm, kept his camp neat and small, and was hidden from public view, (I knew about it for months but never said anything) but their attitude&nbsp;was&nbsp;"don't want no trash around here, you get one, there will be more later." Not too long after that I decided I couldn't work for those people any longer!&nbsp;<br><br>There are city ordinaces here that prohibit camping, sleeping or "protracted lounging" in city parks or public property. Now, if there is some college kids asleep on a blanket in the park for 2 hours, no problem, but someone that looks homeless sits on a bench downtown for more than 20 minutes, there is a cop there telling them to move on. Homeless people have to keep a very low profile around here. I don't really know the attitude towards van-dwellers, but I'm sure it's not much different. They even patrol the walmart lot, but can't run anyone off, although I am sure they are making notes on who is there.<br><br>Heck, a few years ago they even successfully blocked a church from taking over the old federal building in town to turn it into a family homeless shelter! The city didn't want "That kind of people" in a high visibility area of town. My family and I were homeless for a while after our house burned to the ground, and the same attitude was shown then. I was told that unless I provided reports to the school board about my progress on rebuilding, (with photos too!)&nbsp;my kids would be removed from their school and sent to one near where we were staying at the time. I rented a small apartment in the same district and gave them a change of address notice instead.<br><br>It's pretty clear what the motives are around here......

 

[yesican]

Here in small town Alaska, we have a few "homeless" and where ever they stay, they leave several piles of garbage.&nbsp; I've been so disgusted.&nbsp;It use to irritate me when people were prevented from nonconforming ways of life, but when their life causes destruction to others and the environment, its easy to see why the laws are made.&nbsp; Its been said by myself and others many times on this site, it is each individual vandweller's responsibility to monitor their behavior so that it doesn't reflect negatively on all vandwellers.&nbsp; Be considerate, leave no trace, and respect private residences.&nbsp; Because of those who don't follow those few simple principals, vandwellers are&nbsp;being viewed as a nuisance and less of a viable part of society.&nbsp; When you see your fellow vandweller falling short, if possible, bring it to his attention.&nbsp; Some people need a wake up call.

 

[mockturtle]

Apparently, some leave not just trash behind, but five-gallon buckets of excrement.&nbsp; Somebody has to clean this up, folks!&nbsp; Please, please pick up after yourselves.&nbsp; Pack it out!&nbsp; IMHO, you should have&nbsp; a port-a-potty or, at the very least, a Wag Bag which you dispose of properly.&nbsp; When you don't, you ruin things for all of us.&nbsp; :-(<br><br>Now, when it comes to RVs being denied free parking within a city, many private RV parks have influenced the city councils to make it illegal for RVs to park anywhere but an RV park or designated campground.&nbsp; Some won't even allow you to park at Walmart, even if Walmart, itself, doesn't mind.&nbsp;

 

[MK7]

Also, don't blame the cops nor politicians....it's the residents and businesses that will constantly complain to the cops, at town meetings, etc. This is why sometimes cops come out all mad and aggressive. Rich people usually have power when they make&nbsp; calls. Lots of areas, like high $$$ tourist ones near beaches, etc., it has become a big mess with people living in RV's and camping there. Taking away parking from businesses and in residential areas, it's an eyesore for them. <br><br>In my old office building, if we leave one of the side doors open, a homeless guy will come in and take a dump right by the stairwell...since he won't risk walking too far inside to use the toilet....not a pretty sight.

 

[Pikachu711]

I strongly suspect that the primary reasons for the various jurisdictions to pass laws making living in a vehicle illegal is the people who are setting as bad examples as van dwellers. These are the people who leave a mess after they've been spending any time at one location. Instead of cleaning up and leaving their immediate area they leave garbage strewed about on the ground. Years ago I used to work security I occasionally had to deal with these type people.<br><br>One night on patrol I discovered a van dweller cleaning his van in the parking lot of an office complex. He was throwing trash out the back doors of his van into my parking lot. He had already dumped a good deal of trash. He didn't see me approach in my patrol vehicle. When I explained that he was making a mess and that he was illegally parked in my parking lot he picked up all his trash, put it back in his van and left the property. Problem solved.<br><br>I'm not entirely sure if he wouldn't have picked the mess he was making but this was an example of what you don't do as a van dweller. I discovered a few van dwellers while working security but the majority of them I did were doing the right thing.<br><br>All it takes is one person doing the wrong thing to ruin it for people who do set a good example as a van dweller. If any town, city or other municipality have enough complaints about people living in vehicles they will pass laws against it.

 

[dusmir]

Pikachu, I know what you mean, but just today I went over to my mother's house, and saw a new family, a herd actually, that has moved in next door. The slob of a mother, when she wasn't screaming at her kids at the other end of the house, was busy slurping down a 44oz soda, talking very loud on her phone,&nbsp;and eating ice cream bars. (three I think) while I trimmed my mothers hedges. I saw her throw the soda cup, ice cream wrappers and an empty water bottle off the side of her porch. My mom said she does it all the time, knowing my 87 year old mom will end up picking it up when it blows over on her driveway.<br><br> I also found out they have been 'borrowing' a lawn mower from the guy across the street when he leaves for work. They mow&nbsp;while he's gone&nbsp;and take it back before he gets home.&nbsp;These people are pure trash, but they have a house, so they are okay, the guy who owned the camp I saw torn down, was the "trash" to the city admins. His place was neat and unless you knew it was there, almost invisible. I guess on the bright side, the husband? does help pay their salaries, he's been arrested twice in the two months they have been there.<br><br> I told my mom to put all the trash they throw in the yard this week in a 5 gallon bucket, when it's full, I am going over and dumping it at their front door. I'm also going to talk to the owner of the mower about getting "dad"&nbsp;or whoever is taking it arrested for theft, video cameras work wonders. I cleared a street of drug dealers last summer just by putting up two security cameras aimed directly at the area they were dealing. <br><br>I am so glad I moved out of town back in 1997. If it wasn't for my mother and sister still living there, I would have gotten farther away than I did.

 

[Stargazer]

Ahh, the birth of HOA's.

 

[Wander Woman]

In Flagstaff the problem was with street alcoholics starting forest fires with their campfires inside the city limits. When the idea for the no camping ordinance came up there was a lot of discussion pro and con. Our community did not like the idea of making it illegal to live in a car, but no one had a better solution, so it was passed. It doesn't appear to be enforced in the Walmart parking lot, so I suspect the police use their own judgement about enforcing the law.

My parents are snowbirds and spend the winters in Yuma. They say the ordinance there is due to it being a snowbird town and the streets would be over run in the winter without the ordinance. However, they were told that if you park in a Walmart lot and hear a knock on the door, if you respond, you'll be told to move, if you ignore it, they go away and leave you alone.

So I think every city may have a different reason for passing these laws, and likely for what they consider to be good reasons, not because they are mean spirited.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

It seems to me that there are already plenty of laws to take care of problems without having to make more. If someone is a problem be it littering or a nuisance then it takes a pretty unimaginative cop not to find something to charge or threaten to charge with.

 

[citytravelfotos]

Americans are very judgmental people, even despite the progress.

America being the idea of a meritocracy, if you don't work hard like everyone else you are looked down upon. If you are seen as homeless, you are seen as someone that isn't working hard (and possibly lazy) and you are also lumped in with the "other" homeless people including every negative stereotype. Anyone that's not working hard and paying taxes is looked down upon especially by the "establishment." It's not just the homeless and poor people, even renters are looked down upon by homeowners. Homeowners are at the upper part of society because they are seen as the most invested into a community, and they tend to vote more than anyone else. Also, they tend to be wealthier, automatically gaining more respect as well.

 

[owl]

Oh yes, those evil Americans. The scourge of the world. That's the ticket, if they would just be like everyone else all problems would be solved.

 

[caseyc]

I agree with others. It's usually the few bad apples that (blatantly) ruin it for the others. As a result, more laws get enacted. Sad but true.

 

[Krakenbound]

Great discussion going on here!

I believe a man has a natural Right to camp, but not where it will significantly effect property owners use rights or other uses of the area. I'm okay with limited parking rules in high use/population areas (Beach areas, impacted urban parking availability, etc), but in areas of limited use at night, such as industrial areas and remote roads, there should be no law against sleeping in a vehicle/trainler for a night, so long as all reasonable traffic rules are obeyed.

Sociopathic litter bugs span the entire range of socio-ecomonic strata; I see people with nice trucks and cars illegally dumping and throwing personal trash in a remote stretch of a protected river park all the time. I also see quite a few "vagrents" cleaning up areas around them that clearly was not their trash. Enforcement of existing litter/dumping laws are rarely enforced. If that is the justification for banning sleeping in cars, those laws should be challenged by pro-bono advocates.

I guess this issue shows why there is so much interest in "stealth" solutions!