Choosing a step van

[KarlH]

I went to look at a 2005 Workhorse P42 step van last week, and everything about it seemed great except the asking price ($8,500). It had 90,000 miles on the odometer and it was easy to drive and had no rust. The engine was a Ford L4 diesel mated to an automatic transmission.

It appears that there are better bargains in other parts of the US, but I'm not sure yet what mileage range I should look at and whether to focus on gas or diesel vans. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[John61CT]

They do go cheaper, but travel hassles cost money too.

Have to get mechanicals well checked out.

Diesel will be harder / more expensive to maintain as it gets older.

 

[KarlH]

The price isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. It's just that I had just seen posts here talking about much lower prices, and I didn't want to be an idiot and pay twice what I should.

 

[John61CT]

Things that help increase the odds of getting crazy low prices:

auctions, especially ex-government

willingness to wait many months even years for that bargain

willingness to spend hundreds / thousands of hours & travel around the country looking

pure luck

 

[Pleasant Travels]

The gas engine versions will be cheaper to get and cheaper to maintain. If you're not going to be towing a cargo trailer along with you, don't bother getting a deisel. If you do, however, don't bother with any of the ones powered by GM deisels. The 6.5 liter GM unit puts out minimal power and has breakage issues. Stick with only Cummins motors or the Ford 7.3 Powerstroke from 1997 onward.

The all aluminum bodied step vans tend to last because they don't corrode like steel does. As long as the frame is not rotted from slush and salt, the vans themselves are usually quite intact or at least restorable.

Here in the Phoenix metro area, you can find an averaged size used gas one for $3000 that needs a little work, or $5000 for one that's rather complete. But finding one with a deisel that has been maintained properly can be tricky, but can be had for about what yours is going for.

Step vans are NOISY, though. They rattle and shake. Not the most long distance comfort design. Another tip;...be aware that the roll-up type door in the back does not work well at keeping dust out when going down a dirt road. They just don't seal as well as "barn doors" like some others have.

 

[John61CT]

Some GM/Workhorse step vans were built with the 8.1L gasser, plenty of oomph for towing without the diesel headaches.

Not common though. . .

 

[highdesertranger]

to funny. I don't know where you got your GM 6.5 diesel info, from a GM hater no doubt. let's take a look,

the 6.2/6.5 diesel engine has been in continuous production since 1981. that's going on 38 years. the product stamp on mine is 7-81 yep it must be junk.

the 6.2/6.5 is the same engine that is in military Humvees. yep no doubt they are junk.

while true it's not a drag racing engine they get excellent fuel economy. in lightweight vehicles with freeway flyer gearing 25+ MPG is common. must be junk, that's impossible

being a GM platform engine the engine and transmission are totally interchangeable with any other GM powertrain. who cares they are junk.

many early 80's 6.2's are still on the road. no there not they are junk

you can buy a brand new 6.5 for around 6k, you can buy used military ones starting at 1500, a refurbished one for about 4k. making them by far the most affordable diesel. must be junk

in the US by shear numbers they are the most produced light truck diesel ever. has to be junk.

BTW you can bolt up a 4BT Cummins to a GM drive train.

highdesertranger

 

[bullfrog]

Just to fair HDR you should note improvements that make them much more reliable and which years and applications are prime canidates. Some of them did have some problems that were corrected I understand. And what about electrical componets are they holding up better in later models?

 

[KarlH]

Another tip;...be aware that the roll-up type door in the back does not work well at keeping dust out when going down a dirt road.

That's really good to know, so thank you. They probably wouldn't be very weather-hardy either.

Step vans are NOISY, though. They rattle and shake. Not the most long distance comfort design.

This one wasn't too bad on city streets. I was thinking of making some gaskets for the sliding doors (out of small diameter rubber hose with a stainless steel braided sheath on the outside for wear-resistance and low-friction), and hoping that it would  reduce the clatter.

But finding one with a diesel that has been maintained properly can be tricky, but can be had for about what yours is going for.

I'm still kind of naive about that. If I were more savvy, I might have bought a vehicle already...

 

[KarlH]

the 6.2/6.5 is the same engine that is in military Humvees.

I was kind of tempted by a Humvee ambulance or a cab/chassis that I could add a similar box to

being a GM platform engine the engine and transmission are totally interchangeable with any other GM powertrain.  who cares they are junk.

Do you know if the gear ratios are close enough to use the same transmission/differential if you switch from gas to diesel or from diesel to gas?

 

[squire]

With a Ford L4 diesel, I would be concerned about the Carry Capacity, sounds like a bread truck. The weight of a conversion can add up fast and then you add the weight of water and batteries. Doable but be careful and honest about your build needs.

 

[John61CT]

Ex tool vendor trucks like Snap-on carry heavier loads.

Also watch gearing issues, around town delivery units vs those with highway gearing.

 

[LoupGarou]

Go wth whatever you can source insurance coverage on.

 

[Pleasant Travels]

to funny.  I don't know where you got your GM 6.5 diesel info,  from a GM hater no doubt.  let's take a look,

the 6.2/6.5 diesel engine has been in continuous production since 1981.  that's going on 38 years.  the product stamp on mine is 7-81  yep it must be junk.

the 6.2/6.5 is the same engine that is in military Humvees.  yep no doubt they are junk.

while true it's not a drag racing engine they get excellent fuel economy.  in lightweight vehicles with freeway flyer gearing 25+ MPG is common.  must be junk,  that's impossible

being a GM platform engine the engine and transmission are totally interchangeable with any other GM powertrain.  who cares they are junk.

many early 80's 6.2's are still on the road.  no there not they are junk

you can buy a brand new 6.5 for around 6k,  you can buy used military ones starting at 1500,  a refurbished one for about 4k.  making them by far the most affordable diesel.   must be junk

in the US by shear numbers they are the most produced light truck diesel ever.  has to be junk.

BTW you can bolt up a 4BT Cummins to a GM drive train.

highdesertranger

Until recently, I have been a GM man my entire life. But the biggest mistake I EVER made was buying a 6.2 GM deisel. Absolute dog s@#t,...I feel very sorry for the U.S. Army's motor pool guys. Even when they aren't failing or cracking, they just don't put out as much performance as other options, like the 5.9 Cummins or the 7.3 Powerstrokes. Either of those other ones would be an excellent choice. If you are lucky enough to find a 6.7 Cummins in a Freightliner, circa 2011 and newer,...that would be tits up!

Just look in Craigslist how much cheaper all the pre-2001 Chevy and GMC deisel trucks sell for compared to the Fords and Dodges of same year (1989 onward for Dodge, 1995 for Fords).

 

[KarlH]

I visited a dealership, and was surprised to find that about half of the used step vans I looked at were already insulated in back. One of those was only insulated on the ceiling, but the others were insulated on the ceiling and walls. None had floor insulation as far as I could tell, and what they did have wasn't very thick (~1" of foam).

Some of them also had heaters, and one or two had generators and ceiling-mounted AC systems. They were a little pricey, but some of the vans had very few miles.

 

[Headache]

Don't be too concerned with floor insulation.  I had an aluminum floor that all I had to do was put a rug over it.  Side insulation is a bonus but ceiling insulation is a must.  What kind of insulation is it?

As a counter to the not complete negative GM diesel info; if you find one with a Ford 6.0 diesel don't buy those either especially if its mated with an E4OD tranny.  I can't even begin to use the language necessary to describe that boat anchor set up.  The 6.0 Powerstroke has one of the worst reputations in diesel history and the earlier 7.3s earned the names Powerchoke and Powerchicken for a reason.  Unfortunately this festering turd of a motor was built by International aka Navistar.

Lets not forget the 6.4 Powerchoke, also known as The Slug.  Like the 7.3 IDI when it first came out(one of two issues it had, the other was the air cleaner) the 6.4 has cavitation issues which for a "modern" power plant is an unforgivable problem.  How International could have allowed this block to be produced knowing what it did about the early 7.3 is inexcusable.  It's also the most expensive Powerstroke to get repaired.

The jury is still out on the 6.7.

Make sure if you are set on getting a diesel and if it's a Ford you get one that is updated to the latest and all recalls(6.4 exhaust fires anyone?) have been addressed.  Otherwise you may be faced with valve guide problems, no starts, oil cooler issues, head gasket failures, sensor and control module issues, etc. Most of those are actual Ford part issues, not International. 

One bad motor does not an enemy make.  I had the International 7.3 IDI and loved it.  It was one of the most dependable motors I've ever had but it was mechanical. Ford hadn't put all its crap all over it yet. After that it sucked for awhile.

Also, one can blame Chevy/GM all they want but they don't know what they are talking about unless they mention that Detroit Diesel built the 6.5, NOT GM.  So saying you broke up with GM because of Detroit's failure doesn't make sense to me.

See, I can play Chicken Little too but I can back mine up and be objective about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Power_Stroke_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C6_transmission
https://autoweek.com/article/car-ne...stroke-woes-anger-buyers-drive-warranty-costs
https://autoweek.com/article/car-ne...-dispute-threates-fords-super-duty-production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_V8_engine

I hope this helps you learn a little more.  TBH like someone else mentioned unless you are pulling 10k+ in weight behind it you'd be better served in the long run and save yourself more money by buying a gasser over a diesel. And in full disclosure despite all the Fords I end up driving later in life I'm a hardcore Bowtie gal.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

I went to look at a 2005 Workhorse P42 step van last week, and everything about it seemed great except the asking price ($8,500). It had 90,000 miles on the odometer and it was easy to drive and had no rust. The engine was a Ford L4 diesel mated to an automatic transmission.

It appears that there are better bargains in other parts of the US, but I'm not sure yet what mileage range I should look at and whether to focus on gas or diesel vans. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

I think the ideal step van is an alluminium body one like the Grumman’s or a very good rust free steel body. If you can find one the single rear wheel, a 3/4 or 1 ton, unless you want more space then 10 or 12 feet by 78 inches.  If you can find one with Cummins 4bt diesel that would be perfect. I have a 1 ton kurbmaster, with a Gm 292 six cylinder gas,  they also came with the ford 300 six cylinder which is meant to be a very good engine, but they both are a bit hard on fuel due to poor aero.  I probably get 13 to 14 mpg with mine driving 50 to 60 mph and I have installed a few aero improvements. The 4bts are rumoured to get 18 to 20 mpg in the smaller step vans. The roof insulation they come with is not adequate, I think insulating the floor is important not only for warmth but also for noise, that includes the floor in the cab area, I have insulation below the floor as well as above, my ceiling has the original insulation plus an extra inch, then tung and groove boards, the walls has between one and two inches of foam board depending on where. One of the issues with stepvans is the noise that can get tiresome to drive long distance with. So insulating the doors,firewall and the dog house along with some kind of sound deadener is worth the effort. My front floor is insulated and the dog house along with some spray foam on the firewall, and in the wheel wells. I still haven’t done the front doors but it is in my plans    The ceiling in the front is also insulated and I have cupboards above the driver and above the doors. With all this it has become a lot quieter and now is about the same as a box truck. Someone mentioned weight  in the build that is not the case with mine I may have to remove a leaf as the van is built to carry much more then the weight of my build and fully loaded it still sits very high in the back.

 

[KarlH]

I think the ideal step van is an alluminium body one like the Grumman’s or a very good rust free steel body. If you can find one the single rear wheel, a 3/4 or 1 ton, unless you want more space then 10 or 12 feet by 78 inches.  If you can find one with Cummins 4bt diesel that would be perfect.

Iron Planet is auctioning a pile of them right now, but they're AS-IS/WHERE-IS and scattered all over the US so that it's hard to look at them. There's also this clause: "a buyer may not dispute the condition of the item. IronPlanet claims no responsibility for the condition or description of this item. This item does not include any protection offered by IronClad Assurance. A buyer may NOT submit a dispute claim on this item."

I have a 1 ton kurbmaster, with a Gm 292 six cylinder gas,  they also came with the ford 300 six cylinder which is meant to be a very good engine, but they both are a bit hard on fuel due to poor aero.  I probably get 13 to 14 mpg with mine driving 50 to 60 mph and I have installed a few aero improvements. The 4bts are rumoured to get 18 to 20 mpg in the smaller step vans. The roof insulation they come with is not adequate, I think insulating the floor is important not only for warmth but also for noise, that includes the floor in the cab area, I have insulation below the floor as well as above, my ceiling has the original insulation plus an extra inch, then tung and groove boards, the walls has between one and two inches of foam board depending on where. One of the issues with stepvans is the noise that can get tiresome to drive long distance with. So insulating the doors,firewall and the dog house along with some kind of sound deadener is worth the effort. My front floor is insulated and the dog house along with some spray foam on the firewall, and in the wheel wells. I still haven’t done the front doors but it is in my plans    The ceiling in the front is also insulated and I have cupboards above the driver and above the doors. With all this it has become a lot quieter and now is about the same as a box truck. Someone mentioned weight  in the build that is not the case with mine I may have to remove a leaf as the van is built to carry much more then the weight of my build and fully loaded it still sits very high in the back.

 
Did you take any photos during your build? The interior pics you posted looked very classy.

On the drive back from the dealership I was looking at skirts and trailer tails on semis and thinking about ways of reducing drag on a step van. Would it make sense to buy a shorter (and cheaper) van and attach a slightly tapered box to the back (similar to a trailer tail in shape)?

There are a couple candidate vehicles for sale now that have garage doors in back, so it would have the secondary benefit of removing a noise source. I was thinking that I could un-bolt the rear step and hand-holds (if there are any) and use those hard-points to provide some of the structural support.

 

[John61CT]

All aluminum body GM / Workhorse, 8.1L gasser, beefed up rear axle ideally 4500 style wide ratio for both low end torque and 50+ mph driving..

Reward offered if you put me on to the one I buy, lower miles more important than crazy cheap.

 

[66788]

My Grumman Olson is the 16 foot box, 7 foot ceiling, powered by the Cummins 4BT. 16 mpg with 3,000 pounds of load, 17-18 mgp with less.

Here is a pic of the work in progress:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/44559205120_80299d86cc_b.jpg

I had to rivet in 8 vertical steel channel supports  to stiffen the box and give me something to attach the polyiso to, as well as the second layer of 1/2 inch polyiso that goes between the wooden furring strips.  Over that goes the RV paneling.  This is done to prevent the thermal bridging  created by the steel vertical uprights.

The 32 inch one piece shower is on the left side, and the water heater is just ahead of the wheel well on the right side.

The insulation is 2 inches minimum in most areas and up to 7.5 inches in some areas.  The floor has 1 inch of polyiso covered by 1/2 inch of marine plywood.

The fan is a MaxxAire powered vent, and the shower has its own vent directly overhead.

I can't believe how slowly this build is going, but I'm taking my time and doing things right.