Bought the Oasis Firefly Battery

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cortttt said:
That's more than I thought. Thanks

Rickey asked me to weigh the battery; it should weigh 74 lbs. On my bathroom digital scale - accuracy unknown - it weighed 73.2 lbs three times in a row.

A gallon of battery equalizer weighs 9.5 lbs - https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/fluid/be128.html#WayPointInformation; if I have a gallon and a half of electrolyte in the battery that works out to about 14 lbs  of which, if the scale is right, I've lost about .6.....

That doesn't sound like too much????

Sorry, I never noticed your last post.

I would not trust a digital scale to that degree of precision. I've noticed the same object weighing differently at different temperatures, at least on a 50Lb fish scale.

Did the new caps stop the leaking?

You are one of the few ( only one I am aware of) actually using this battery in an RV.
 
SternWake said:
Sorry, I never noticed your last post.

I would not trust a digital scale to that degree of precision. I've noticed the same object weighing differently at different temperatures, at least on a 50Lb fish scale.

Did the new caps stop the leaking?

You are one of the few ( only one I am aware of) actually using this battery in an RV.

Thanks....I wondered about that cheapo digital scale. 

The new caps work just fine. They're just little plastic caps; they look like they probably cost about a dollar apiece - probably the cheapest part of the entire battery..

No more leakage :)
 
The saga continues. 

The battery seemed to be operating fine until I began to do a restoration charge. That includes, as I remember, bringing the battery down to below 10.something volts and recharging it quickly and then doing the same again. 

I only had the MaxxAir fan hooked up at that point. Over a couple of days the voltage slowly declined - about .4 volts a day or something like that. I was down to about 11.3 volts when I increased the fan setting by one. 

Two days later I checked it and the controller screen was dead and the volt meter indicated the battery was down to 5.6 volts. I was astonished that it would suddenly drop so low.

It suggested that increasing the MaxxAir fan setting by one had depleted the battery by almost three volts a day...(It had been dropping the battery voltage by about .4 volts a days.)

I reconnected the solar and contacted Ricky - the battery rep.  He recommended that I recharge the battery. I hooked up to solar (360 watts of panels) and started recharging the battery but when it got 7.1 volts it just stopped.  Ricky recommended that I go to shore power right away/

I had measured the battery voltage at 7.1` volts but when I brought it into Autozone they indicated that it was 9.1 volts and my voltmeter indicated the same. Nobody could understand why that would happen but it suggest that the battery never really got down to 5 volts. They said the battery was completely depleted. From some reason having it hooked up in the van affected the voltage reading. 

After 4 hours or so of trickle charging the battery it was at 12.2 volts and 67% charged. After taking it off the machine it dropped to 47% charged but a test 10 minutes later suggested it had stabilized. 

Ricky recommended that I buy a ProNautica Battery charger and I did but have been unable to use because I had to take off. That was about three weeks ago.
 
The battery seemed to do fine until early one day - with the sun still low in the sky - I heard a strong bubbling sound coming from the battery (!). It was not venting but sounded like it was bubbling furiously inside. 

That stopped at some point but in the middle of the day a couple of days ago, one of the vents started venting furiously.  (No bubbling sounds from the battery itself) I threw a tarp over the panels and disconnected them. About an hour later I reconnected them and all was fine. 

[font=arial, sans-serif]The controller registered a high voltage disconnect fault - indicating high voltage in the battery.  Upon reconnecting the panels the voltage read 14.6 - which was accurate given the temperature of the battery [/font]
 
A few days later the two of the vents were leaking again - not much but they were discharging.  I told Ricky that the battery voltage when the sun was on the panels was 14.6V. He asserted that indicated  the controller was overcharging the battery - that if the battery was at 12.6 volts in the AM before the sun hit it; the charger should be giving the battery around 13.2v - and that the battery was fine. 

I talked to Morningstar rep. He[font=arial, sans-serif] asserted that it depends on what status the battery is at. After after figuring out the temperature compensation curve that 14.7 v is fine when the battery it is at 12.6 volt but bulk absorption set at 14.4. when the battery is not completely fulo. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]The battery stated that it was in PWM mode which meant that the charging is modulating the voltage  - quickly turning the charge to the battery on and off to safely bump the battery charge up. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]At [/font][font=arial, sans-serif] some point it would[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] go to float (13.2 or so).- which it did and does. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]Ricky was sure that the battery was being overcharged and that the bubbling sounds in the battery and the venting was an indication of that. He asked if the battery was warm to the touch. It wasn't; - it was cool to the touch and the temperature sensor gauge read a normal battery temperature - (16.0 C)[/font]
 
[font=arial, sans-serif]The weird thing is that the l[/font][font=arial, sans-serif]ogged data from the controller[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] was [/font][font=arial, sans-serif]registered anomalous data - indicating that the battery voltage was swinging from very high (eg 17 v) to very low levels (eg 5 volts). The Morningstar rep indicated that that must be wrong because the controller will automatically shut off when the volts go below say 9 volts and that hasn't happened. He recommended that I reset the controller to a regular setting and see what happened.[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]Everything worked fine for a couple of days but then the[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] controller started registering faults - high voltage disconnect - and would stop feeding power to the battery. Then the fault would stop and it would start feeding power to the battery. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]The anomalous logged data is showing up again - swinging between very high read and low readings.  [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]Today at around 9 am in the AM - sun is low in the sky and obscured by clouds - and the controller is again showing a high battery voltage disconnect fault, is sending no power to the battery - and the battery is giving bubbling sounds. No evidence of venting is present. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]The battery is cool to the touch. The temperature sensor is 17.0 - 62.6 and the battery voltage reading is 13.7V.[/font]


[font=arial, sans-serif]I sent an email to Rickey and will talk to Morningstar about the anomalous reading and the high voltage disconnect fault. [/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]Some things I've learned: [/font]

  • Bubbling sounds in the battery are not associated with venting from the battery
  • Twice they have occurred early in the morning when little solar charging was occurring
  • High voltage disconnect fault is not necessarily associated with high amounts of solar charging either. It has happened when [font=arial, sans-serif]the sun is high in the sky but also when it is low in the sky. I don't know if its associated with bubbling sounds or not. [/font]
  • The controller seems to be [font=arial, sans-serif]spitting out anomalous data in that its showing battery charge so low that the controller should be shutting off. My question is whether[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] the controller will turn back on once the voltage goes[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] back up. If it does then it might actually be accurate. I assumed that it was not accurate but if is[/font][font=arial, sans-serif] is accurately reading the battery voltage that would indicate huge fluctuations in the state of the battery which I assume would not be a good thing. I think I will start intermittently checking the battery voltage at night. [/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, sans-serif]T[/font][font=arial, sans-serif]here have been two sets of problems; [/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, sans-serif](1) - a lot of venting and fluid loss due to the bad vents[/font][/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, sans-serif] (2) then the extreme discharge over a couple of days when the fan was running.  It appears to me that the battery got irretrievably damaged during that process but why did it drop so low quickly? Was the fluid loss due to the venting problems to blame? Or did I just blow it? Plus there was the weird issue of the battery voltage would changing dramatically - from 7.1 V to 9.1 V just by removing it from the van and retesting it when this current episode started. [/font][/font]
 
Where did you hear to deplete the battery slowly, intentionally, to such a ridiculously low voltage?


10.5v is considered 100% discharged on most lead acid batteries, some AGMS say 11.1v, as there is so little energy available below 10.5v, it is essentially worthless.

Why did you think the battery needed a reconditioning?  Was 'morning' voltage getting lower and lower despite the same overnight loads?

Odyssey AGM's reconditioning procedure is to Quickly drain the battery to 10 volts using high loads like vehicle lights, then to immediately fast charge it, with a high amperage charger, upto 14.7v then hold 14.7v  until amps taper to basically zero, however long that takes.

Lifeline AGM's reconditioning procedure is to bring battery to 15.5v for 8 hours after a normal 'full' charge is performed, meaning it was held at absorption voltage until amps tapered to 0.5% of capacity, and then the charging source was bumped upto 15.5 volts and held then held the battery there for 8 hours.

I've heard/read nothing about firefly's 'reconditioning' procedure so I am interested in why you did what you did as I would have recommended strongly against doing so, and if My recommendation is in contrast to what firefly  recommends, then I will eat crow.

Draining any Lead acid battery, carbon foam plate separators or not, slowly under a light load, to below 10.5v is ridiculously abusive to it.  When this is done unintentionally it is always a mystery as to whether the battery can be recharged to some percentage of its former capacity and remain useful, or require replacement.  Newer batteries usually can return to function and last for a while if it is never done again. Older ones are basically thrown over the edge of the cliff. but to do so intentionally?  on a 500$ battery?

I can't answer questions as to your morningstar controllers wild voltage swings.  But here is a possibility. When my AGM battery is truly fully charged, it requires very little amperage to maintain any voltage, so when the fridge compressor cycles off, and the ~ 2.5 amp load is instantly turned off, my voltage will rise quickly and the solar controller shuts off until voltage falls below the float setpoint.  When it does, then it allows amperage to flow again, but the battery only needs 0.05amps or less to maintian 13.6v, so 1 amp again raises voltage to over 14.5v quickly, and it takes a while for the controller to settle on an output of somewhere around 0.05amps to maintain voltage.   Then when the fridge cycles on, then off, the cycle repeats.  I usually will add some loads when this occurs just to stop the voltage yoyo.  But this also indicates I have a large solar surplus at that moment, so I then try to use it powering other things.

I have a meanwell power supply that can hold rock steady voltage regardless of load( upto 40 amps), but my solar controller cannot adjust for changing loads that quickly. Perhaps your solar controller is even slower to respond.
  I have a 10 year old schumacher 'smart' charger which is molasses slow in comparison to either when loads on battery are changed abruptly.  Back before I got the meanwell I would sometimes use schumacher to float fully charged battery.  The fridge compressor cycling on and off would cause voltage swings from 12.8v to 15.8v, when trying to maintain 13.2v and that proved irksome as fans would be varying their speed and LED's their brightness constantly, so I quit doing it.
 
SternWake said:
Where did you hear to deplete the battery slowly, intentionally, to such a ridiculously low voltage?

In the threads you linked to early on, Maine Sail talks about a deep discharge/100% cycle pattern that restores (only) the Firefly's AH capacity after long PSOC abuse that would usually murder other LA batteries.

Just guessing but...

Personally this noob will likely be sticking to mainstream low-cost batteries to start with.
 
But Mainesail doe not discharge them slowly to well below 10.5v over several days using a light load. He does so while monitoring the voltage and then instantly applies a capable grid powered charging source when the voltage threshold is breached and charges non stop until the battery is full.

He is also not limited to applying this charging source only when the sun shines.

I was hoping to hear how this battery would do in PSOC cycling in actual dweller use. I was certainly disappointed to hear of the leaking vents, and am disappointed to hear of its behavior now, but an intentional slow drain to sub 10.5v is a deal breaker as to whether this battery can handle constant PSOC usage with the occassional capacity restoring full charge.
 
SternWake said:
Where did you hear to deplete the battery slowly, intentionally, to such a ridiculously low voltage?

I don't know where in my post it suggested that I intentionally depleted the battery to such a ridiculously low voltage. If there was a place where I accidentally suggested that it's a mistake. The goal was to bring the battery down to 10. something - I don't remember the exact volts but it was in the 10's. That was my intention.

I was horrified to find it go as low as it did. 

Rickey recommended to every couple of months do a restoration charge. I did it on the basis of that. Too bad! Considering how its worked out. 

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The battery seemed to be operating fine until I began to do a restoration charge. That includes, as I remember, bringing the battery down to below 10.something volts and recharging it quickly and then doing the same again. [/font]
 
John61CT said:
In the threads you linked to early on, Maine Sail talks about a deep discharge/100% cycle pattern that restores (only) the Firefly's AH capacity after long PSOC abuse that would usually murder other LA batteries.

Just guessing but...

Personally this noob will likely be sticking to mainstream low-cost batteries to start with.

Yes, this "noob" probably will be although he still thinks the basic idea was a good one; spend more for a battery that can withstand abuse...and that doesn't need as much attention. That sounds like a great plan actually for a "noob"
 
Restoration charge from the Oasis Manual. 

Restoration Charge As stated, the Oasis can operate in a partial state of charge for long periods of time without sustaining any permanent damage. The usable capacity will decrease, however, with each cycle within a partial state of charge, up to a point. In order to regain the full original capacity and in some cases more, it is necessary to perform a restoration charge. To perform the restoration charge: charge the Oasis to 14.4V and continue to charge until the current drops to 0.6 A. Fully discharge the battery to 10.5V, and then repeat the same charge cycle. At this point, the Oasis should have regained it’s full capacity.
 
The Oasis rep believes that the Morningstar charge controller is the problem. From Rickey

"t[font=arial, sans-serif]he FF rep said that they have had numerous issues with the Morningstar units"[/font]
 
I think they mean to do that quickly. Not over a period of days.
 
TMG51 said:
I think they mean to do that quickly. Not over a period of days.
Who knows? If that was pertinent to reducing the charge on the battery I would hope they would have said that; i.e. the battery should be discharged quickly over a day or to to 10.5 V...Since they didn't say that I can only hope and assume that it's not a major  issue.
 
cortttt said:
I don't know where in my post it suggested that I intentionally depleted the battery to such a ridiculously low voltage. If there was a place where I accidentally suggested that it's a mistake. The goal was to bring the battery down to 10. something - I don't remember the exact volts but it was in the 10's. That was my intention.

I was horrified to find it go as low as it did. 

Rickey recommended to every couple of months do a restoration charge. I did it on the basis of that. Too bad! Considering how its worked out. 

Whoops. I see that you meant discharging it to 10.5. Apologies.
 
I would have interpreted it to mean draw down over an hour or two, not over a whole day. And I'd either be watching the voltage drop like a hawk, or (better) have an LVD wired to cut the load off automatically at the cutoff voltage.

And that routine should only be as-needed if you were being PSOC abusive right? Not as a scheduled routine?

Normal LA and all other AGM would be pretty instantly murdered by such abuse. The native chemistry really wants to get back up to 100% as quickly and as often as possible, and especially with the $$ Firefly that should be what you'd aspire to in daily use right?

Amazing their foam tricks result in such difference in resilience. But in this case maybe pushed too far. . .

>> Personally this noob

Sorry didn't mean to snark, was only referring to myself.
 
Trebor English said:
Strange voltage fluctuations could be explained by an intermittent wire or connection.

Interesting. Would these wire problems be in the controller itself - and affecting how its reading the battery?
 
Double check the tightness of the wires where they enter and exit your solar controller.  Is the weight of the wires hanging off the terminals? Really it would be best to make sure they cannot vibrate and there is NO stress on any wire terminal.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-400000...&qid=1485831134&sr=8-11&keywords=cable+clamps


If the wires were hanging and vibrating with the engine, it is possible the solder joints on the circuit board, where the wires enter/exit, could have fractured and give intermittent Readings.

The tighten stranded wire under screws  terminals are problematic.  They need to be retightened occassionally, especially withing the first week of originally crushing the wire under the screw. This copper can oxidize and develop more resistance with time, and then heat up more, accelerating the degradation process

Strange that they did not give a recommended load at which to discharge the battery to 10.5v. 

As a minimum, I figure one needs to use the load at which the battery the battery earns its 20 hour capacity rating.

So 110AH rating divided by 20 hours is a 5.5 amp load.  So, if one wanted to keep the battery around 77f, and could discharge it at exaxtly 5.5 amps One could judge the remaining capacity by hol long it took voltage to hit 10.5volts.

It is not easy to have an exact 5.5 amp load  the whole test when voltage drops  as battery discharges, nor keep the battery at 77f for the whole test for the results to be precise and accurate.

BUt, at a later date, one could do the same test using the same load and compare the time it took to fall to 10.5v and judge fairly closely to how much capacity has declined and can estimate how much is remaining.

Also when recharging from this 10.5v, it should be done in one session, not getting to 50% day one then 98% day two and 100% day 3.

Ask your contact about minimum/maximum initial amperage.

But this chart shows a 50 amp initial current on one battery, so we know it is capable of accepting that much.
northstar_vs_firefly2jpg.jpg


Odyssey AGM says use 40% of the 10 hour rate of the battery as a minimum when conditioning.

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEY_Battery_Reconditioning_Charge_Procedure.pdf




Odyssey's group31(pc2250) is 100AH at 20Hr rate, and 92AH at the 10 hour rate.

That would be 38.6 amps Minimum recommended.   This 39 amps might take nearly 2 hours before battery voltage climbs to 14.7v.  Then 14.7 needs to be held until amps taper to near Zero.  This might take 4 hours if the battery is healthy. It might take 18 hours. 

I would not recommend trying an AGM  'reconditioning' procedure, unless one is willing to apply a big enough load  to battery to take battery voltage to 10.5 in an hour or 3, but certainly no more than 20 hours.   Under no circumstances allow it to drain below 10.5v at the 20 hour rate, but a 3 hour rate can goto 10.0v as it will likely rebound above 10.5v when ~30 amp load is removed

When battery is this depleted, the most importat part begins. that is applying a minimal amperage until 14.4 or .7v at 77F, is attained.  The this absorption voltage is to be held until amps taper near zero.

When you discharged the battery, you did so only with the fan? Not sure of the amp load, but I will guess That would be 1.2 amps or so, like a hundred hour rate, and once battery voltage fell to 10.5v, it then took a nosedive as it is fully depleted at 10.5v under a 5.5 amps load.  A 1.1 amp load drained it well past 100% depleted even if you stopped it at 10.5v.

Any time spend below 20% charged is bad time for a battery.  When taking it there the goal should be to get it back above 20% quickly, and ultimately back to 80% in 2 hours, and 80 to 100% might take 4 more hours, or 14, but it is important to hold it at absorption voltage until amps taper to near Zero.

Obviously this requires special equipment, Or a GOOD excess fo solar, and if it cannot be done in one day via solar, do not discharge the battery at all that night, and then park so the solar panel will get the early morning light, and dance on one foot backwards clockwise while chanting and hold absorption voltage until amps taper to near Zero.

If one can't Apply  the true 100% recharge promptly, ASAP,  after this  100% discharge , all this 'reconditioning' procedure, becomes, is an extra abusive deep cycle.

110AH capacity battery discharged to 10.5v under a 1 amp load is abusive
The discharge to 7 volts under a 1 amp load is extremely abusive.

100% dischrge shold be done at the 20 hour rate, at the minimum, 5.5 amps on this Oasis 110Ah battery for 20 hours, And I think it is better if can be done  in 3-4 hours.

I cannot say I ever heard My AGM bubbling when charging at 40 amps, but it does increase temperature nearly 20 degrees at that rate by the time amps taper to about 15.

Don't know what to say about the caps leaking, other than to wonder if you tightened them enough, or if the surface they mate to is not flat.

If you pass through San Diego, I can perform the 'reconditioning' and lend you a fully charged healthy enough group31 12v flooded battery overnight.  I expect I could not do it in less than 11 hours.  it is up to the battery.
 
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