Battery Hell ! Could really use some advice ...

[Clan Graham]

That die hard does not sound bad. You could get a wet cell for about $100, but would have the extra maintenance and the various safety issues. Try to find out what sears wants for a trade-in as with none you will have another $30 for the deposit.

This is not a problem, because I DO have two batteries for the core deposit. This will make the price $260 plus local tax.

You have the existing battery compartment to use for your house bank, generator and other house power equipment??

Uhm, no. The factory battery compartment will only hold my House batteries. There is only room for those, and nothing more.

Stinks.

 

[Duck]

My 12v batteries never allowed using such caps or watering devices, so i have no experience with them.

I have read that some claim the catalysts in the water miser caps wears out and that they start using water unbeknownst to the user who finds that that their batteries are low.

Again no personal experience. heresay.

The mineral oil added to the cells, In my opinion, should only be done to Stationary batteries, not ones in an RV which can slosh the electrolyte around inside the battery. Oil covered plates are probably as bad as sulfated plates.

They might very well be effective in reducing water loss, but how is the owner to know if they are effective or not unless they pop the caps and have a look inside.

Making it easy to pop the caps and have a look inside is wise. Making it difficult to check can lead to premature battery failure of one goes too long, because the process is dreaded.

I think there is a tendency for Dwellers to overbuild their beds. Having a strong hinged lid to access the storage underneath, and perhaps an Airtight Hatch going through the floor that one can also lift to access the batteries can be engineered.

I don't like the batteries inside the living compartment not only for the fumes, but for the loss of storage too. Also the lower the batteries, the lower the CG of the vehicle, making it safer in emergency maneuvers.

I don't think it uses any sort of a catalyst? So far as I know it's a non-water permeable membrane(think Goretex, or Racor fuel filters).
If no maintenance ever is the desire, then AGM, gel or Lifepo4 are options.
However, for cost purposes the caps on some reasonable flooded batteries works pretty good. Easier to maintain. I'd replace them when replacing the batteries(cheap insurance.)
The caps just greatly reduce how often you have to deal with it, and importantly, reduce corrosion and mess.
Both important if access sucks. Even if the cap were to fail, it would then evaporate at a normal rate, since most people check batteries once or twice a year at best I think it would still help increase the chances of a battery surviving.

The additive oil is used here by the coast-guard if I remember right, and many boats that experience rough conditions that we serviced.
I think the level of sloshing in an RV would be a lot less than a boat bouncing over large waves.
Seems to help, not as good as the caps, but noticeably better when newer banks didn't have it.


The watering systems are great, but more of a pain to set up.

 

[Clan Graham]

OK ... I found out today that I could technically mount the Starting battery in a custom made box, right behind where the House battery compartment is. But it would slightly block the airflow to the radiator, and would also require some fabricating. Putting it under the bed would be MUCH easier.

 

[SternWake]

Ideal and practical rarely find common ground. Everything is a compromise.

A group 31 AGM under the bed certainly works. Sounds easier than fabricating a new battery tray that will just absorb engine heat, and block radiator airflow. Batteries do not like hot temperatures. It makes them age much quicker.

The option of 4 GC's as a house bank, and two group 24 marines as starters remains, all in the same tray.

Hard to say whether you really NEED 6 GC's. Gotta consider fabrication costs and effort. The generator gives you a buffer, and a Hundred amp powermax converter charger can keep them from going and staying too low, even if you don't keep it on long enough to return to 85%.

A simple voltmeter that registers under 11.8 under light loading is a sign the genny should be fired up, and run until the noise becomes irritating, or it descends into the fuel wasting category, when the batteries are in the >85% range. This is why I recommended the converter which will max out the genny, to minimize the time it takes to reach 85% and burn less gasoline to do it.

http://www.amazon.com/0-36inch-Digit-Digital-Panel-Voltmeter/dp/B008REJSW2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Perhaps 4 would do, and later, after you wear out the 4, you can put a $$$.xx AGM under the bed and 6 new GC's in the tray. Just leave enough slack in the wiring to feed to the new starter battery location so You do not need to butt splice 1/0 cable onto 1/0 cable to reach.

Leave yourself room for easy expansion in terms of wiring length. I can't tell you how many times I cursed myself for cutting cables/wires so they looked pretty, then had to move the fuse block to accommodate something else and wind up splicing on 3 inches of wire to reach.

Also wise to label the wires. Sharpie on some blue tape, covered by clear scotch tape. It is really annoying to see a wire, and not remember where it goes, and for anybody else trying to understand your system, unknown wires add serious complexity to the task of troubleshooting

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Stern said:
Also wise to label the wires. Sharpie on some blue tape, covered by clear scotch tape. It is really annoying to see a wire, and not remember where it goes, and for anybody else trying to understand your system, unknown wires add serious complexity to the task of troubleshooting

Great idea Stern. It may also be a good idea to draw a wiring schematic as it will very helpful someday. It can be very crude but it will help.

 

[blars]

Don't bother to oversize the converter/charger. Not only is charging at more than 10% of the amphour rating bad on a lead-acid battery, the internal resistance will limit them to not a lot more. 45 amps is about right for four golf carts.

 

[Clan Graham]

Ideal and practical rarely find common ground. Everything is a compromise.

A group 31 AGM under the bed certainly works. Sounds easier than fabricating a new battery tray that will just absorb engine heat, and block radiator airflow. Batteries do not like hot temperatures. It makes them age much quicker.

The option of 4 GC's as a house bank, and two group 24 marines as starters remains, all in the same tray.

Hard to say whether you really NEED 6 GC's. Gotta consider fabrication costs and effort. The generator gives you a buffer, and a Hundred amp powermax converter charger can keep them from going and staying too low, even if you don't keep it on long enough to return to 85%.

A simple voltmeter that registers under 11.8 under light loading is a sign the genny should be fired up, and run until the noise becomes irritating, or it descends into the fuel wasting category, when the batteries are in the >85% range. This is why I recommended the converter which will max out the genny, to minimize the time it takes to reach 85% and burn less gasoline to do it.

http://www.amazon.com/0-36inch-Digit-Digital-Panel-Voltmeter/dp/B008REJSW2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Perhaps 4 would do, and later, after you wear out the 4, you can put a $$$.xx AGM under the bed and 6 new GC's in the tray. Just leave enough slack in the wiring to feed to the new starter battery location so You do not need to butt splice 1/0 cable onto 1/0 cable to reach.

Leave yourself room for easy expansion in terms of wiring length. I can't tell you how many times I cursed myself for cutting cables/wires so they looked pretty, then had to move the fuse block to accommodate something else and wind up splicing on 3 inches of wire to reach.

Also wise to label the wires. Sharpie on some blue tape, covered by clear scotch tape. It is really annoying to see a wire, and not remember where it goes, and for anybody else trying to understand your system, unknown wires add serious complexity to the task of troubleshooting

Wow Stern ... That is some good advice ! I would like to have all of by batteries in one tray for sure .... But I am really concerned about just having 4 Golf Cart batteries. Just seems they would need recharging a whole lot more.


.

 

[SternWake]

While high charging rates do beat up batteries, I believe that charging low and slow when they are cycled daily is just as bad if not worse for them. Doing so from a generator one is not trying to run all day is more wasteful. Spend 300 dollars extra in fuel for the generator to extend overall battery life by a year, saving 200$, makes no sense.

When batteries are worked hard nightly, and thirsty, give them everything they want and let them decide how much to drink. It will be well more than 45 amps at first. They will decide when 45 amps is more than enough at the voltage supplied by the converter.

I found previous set of batteries always responded nicely to an early morning alternator blast. Two 27's sucking up 90 amps was well over the 12 to 18% recommended rate dictated by Crown battery, yet every time I gave them this morning blast, they performed better the next night than if the solar did the low and slow thing to recharge them nearly fully.

My new USbattery group 31 manufacturer recommendations is 10% of the 20hr rate capacity, so 13 amps, but soon I am going to let the alternator feed it what ever the battery wants as it is now at 50% and taking 4 amps from the solar. Previous experience tells me this battery will ask for and receive 45 amps in this state of charge.

I did take about 15 A/h from my engine AGM last night too, and that one wants a 40% charge rate when cycled deeply, so the alternator might be maxed out for the first few miles anyway

 

[Clan Graham]

Ok ok ... good info. I have been reading like crazy, but my ignorance is holding me back. I was under the impression the House batteries were only charged up every couple of weeks. Am I misreading you are telling me they need charging DAILY instead ? I know use will dictate this, but man am I ever still lost !

 

[SternWake]

Clan Graham,

If 6 GC batteries would allow you to go 4 days before needing to recharge, well then that is 3 days that they are sitting too low. It would be better to run the generator an hour each morning, than for 5 hours on day 5. Batteries do not like sitting in the 80% and under range. The longer and lower they sit there, the harder it becomes to dissolve the sulfate back into the electrolyte, and doing so requires more time and more energy.

Large amounts of extra capacity as a buffer might give one the warm and fuzzies, but when one is requiring to run a generator every so often anyway, the warm and fuzzies can be transferred to the generator, rather than in large amounts of Lead.

 

[Clan Graham]

Clan Graham,

If 6 GC batteries would allow you to go 4 days before needing to recharge, well then that is 3 days that they are sitting too low. It would be better to run the generator an hour each morning, than for 5 hours on day 5. Batteries do not like sitting in the 80% and under range. The longer and lower they sit there, the harder it becomes to dissolve the sulfate back into the electrolyte, and doing so requires more time and more energy.

Large amounts of extra capacity as a buffer might give one the warm and fuzzies, but when one is requiring to run a generator every so often anyway, the warm and fuzzies can be transferred to the generator, rather than in large amounts of Lead.

AWESOME ! Great info I needed !

So this next question is VERY important SternWake ... And this is what I need to know : If I do simply run the generator for an hour each morning, then 4 instead of 6 should not matter at all ... right ? It seems it would be difficult to run 4 GC batteries down too low, with what little I will be using in just a single day's time.

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I think I have been really incorrect this entire time ... I thought the whole idea in using 6 instead of 4, was where it would literally give me extra days between recharging. But if I am recharging daily instead ....

 

[SternWake]

Correct. If you run the generator daily, then there is little point in having a huge capacity.

The Huge capacity is needed for those that want to transfer all stick and brick luxuries to a rolling box, and do not have access to an external charging source for the intended time away from the grid. Some want enough capacity to get them through a 5 day outing without running a genny, then when they get home they just plug in and let the converter do its thing. You won't have that option in your intended usage, not if you want to get a respectable lifespan out of the batteries.

YOu will have the Honda. Fire it up in the morning for your Espresso, and once that is done, plug in the converter and let her rip until the amps taper to 10 or less, indicating the ~85% range has been reached.

The tapered 10 amps threshhold will depend on the batteries and their health. Just a general guideline, and once you decide on a brand/ make we can then try and determine what the manufacturer recommends as to an ideal charging regimen and what tapered amperage indicates ~85% SOC( State of charge)

A clamp on DC Ammeter, or wiring a shunted meter on the converter wiring will be a very useful tool for determining when to shut off the Genny.

The 100 amp Powermax might only shave 10 minutes off Genny run times compared to the 85 amp or the 75 amps, depending on what the batteries want. Going to the lower amp version might allow you to run the converter and the espresso maker in the morning, as opposed to one or the other. The Honda will be working pretty hard when the 100 amp powermax is maxed out with hungry batteries.

Powermax converters below 75 amps are not power factor corrected, and less efficient.

The goal should be maximum recharging for minimal generator run times. For nightly cycled batteries, best thing you can do is refill them in the morning for as long as you care to listen to the Genny, without wasting the gas to bring them above 90%.

But the monthly 100% recharge should always be done. This will likely require an EQ cycle, and the powermax will not do voltages up into the 15's required for this.

Good news is the 12v output on the honda is unregulated and hooking the batteries to the honda directly, after the powermax has taken them to full, will allow the 15.5 eq voltages.

Again access to the batteries to dip a Hydrometer into the cells for verification when to end the EQ cycle is wise.

Running a EQ cycle with the powermax converter is not going to happen
unless you open up the converter and change the voltage pots to allow 15.5 volts. A stand alone manual charger can get the voltages into the 15's given enough time.

Some Automatic chargers will also do an EQ cycle. My Schumacher will go into the mid 15's, but only when it feels like doing so. Hard to force it into an EQ cycle if it does not want to.

Voltages in the mid 15's are appraoching the danger limit for some 12 volt DC electronics. Good to have a disconnect switch or some other method to isolate such devices which will not like 15.5 volts during an EQ cycle.

 

[caseyc]

I have a question. I noticed with the current cold weather spell lately, my auxillary AGM battery will go from say 12.1 volts down to dangerously low at around 9.6 or so in just a matter of 1 or 2 days of leaving the van parked. When I press the button to check the voltage reading, the alarm immediately rings to let me know power is very low. The outdoor temp reading has been around 33 to 37 degrees (F) lately. What to do, what to do?

 

[SternWake]

Casey that is different thread material. But you are not fully charging that battery, and sounds like something is drawing it down too.

9.6 is bad. Different thread. But ultimately you are at the mercy of those who installed your system as you don't have any troubleshooting skills

 

[caseyc]

Okay, thanks! I think I just need to drive the darn thing more often.

 

[Clan Graham]

Correct. If you run the generator daily, then there is little point in having a huge capacity.
YOu will have the Honda. Fire it up in the morning for your Espresso, and once that is done, plug in the converter and let her rip until the amps taper to 10 or less, indicating the ~85% range has been reached.

Ah hah ... This is very doable. I like it.

The tapered 10 amps threshhold will depend on the batteries and their health. Just a general guideline, and once you decide on a brand/ make we can then try and determine what the manufacturer recommends as to an ideal charging regimen and what tapered amperage indicates ~85% SOC( State of charge)

As far as a brand and make of the GC batteries .... Suggestions please ? I know Trojan may be the best ... but others have told me to just get the Sam's Club GC batteries. I had decided on these, unless you know something I do not : http://www.solar-electric.com/cr225am6vode.html?gclid=CNTC6Lz6hbsCFSEV7AodvmkArw

A clamp on DC Ammeter, or wiring a shunted meter on the converter wiring will be a very useful tool for determining when to shut off the Genny.

Are you now speaking of another meter, or like the digital one you linked to me a few posts back ?


The 100 amp Powermax might only shave 10 minutes off Genny run times compared to the 85 amp or the 75 amps, depending on what the batteries want. Going to the lower amp version might allow you to run the converter and the espresso maker in the morning, as opposed to one or the other. The Honda will be working pretty hard when the 100 amp powermax is maxed out with hungry batteries.

Powermax converters below 75 amps are not power factor corrected, and less efficient.

The goal should be maximum recharging for minimal generator run times. For nightly cycled batteries, best thing you can do is refill them in the morning for as long as you care to listen to the Genny, without wasting the gas to bring them above 90%.

Uuuuuuhhhhmmm ... It sound like you are saying the 100 amp Powermax is most likely the best bet for MY applications ???

But the monthly 100% recharge should always be done. This will likely require an EQ cycle, and the powermax will not do voltages up into the 15's required for this.
Good news is the 12v output on the honda is unregulated and hooking the batteries to the honda directly, after the powermax has taken them to full, will allow the 15.5 eq voltages.

Ooh ! This I understand then, and can also do !

Again access to the batteries to dip a Hydrometer into the cells for verification when to end the EQ cycle is wise.

Good to have a disconnect switch or some other method to isolate such devices which will not like 15.5 volts during an EQ cycle.

Ok then ... Just to make sure everyone knows ... Of course I will have a hydrometer, and the correct monitoring meters. I have NO plans on ruining my batteries. No worries here.

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Hey Stern .... Is this the same Powermax charger you are recommending ?


http://www.amazon.com/POWERMAX-PM3-100-CONVERTER-CHARGER-AUTOMATIC/dp/B008B13NIQ/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_1

 

[SternWake]

No that 2 decimal point voltmeter is to hook right to the batteries so You can monitor voltage undervarious loads and gain some experience to notice trends and tendencies of various expected voltages for state of charge under various loads.
The Clamp on DC meter is a separate unit than one can hook over any single wire to measure current running through it. You can hook it over one wire from converter to battery to monitor amperage.

Or you can hardwire an Ammeter inline on the converter to battery to monitor amp flow.

Here is a dual Ammeter voltmeter that will require an external shunt for monitoring current flow. No experience with the product and this is not a specific product recommendation, just the first one I clicked on.
http://www.amazon.com/BeesClover-Digital-Ammeter-Voltmeter-2-cloer/dp/B00C7MJ5LE

Neither of these is a must have, just a tool that will help you learn, and notify you of strange happenings, and hopefully extend the battery's lifespan

Ideally you want the Pm4 version, not the pm3 version.
http://www.bestconverter.com/PowerM...tage-ConverterCharger_p_472.html#.Uqd5-NJDvcw

I do not think Amazon sells the PM4 version

 

[Clan Graham]

Understood ... I will get a clamp on voltmeter, and the PM4 as well.

 

[SternWake]

This is my clamp on AC/DC Ammeter/ digital multimeter.

Not sure how it compares to other models, but I am happy with it.

Use Alkaline batteries in it, not Nimh or Nicad AAA's

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-digital-clamp-on-ammeter/p-03482369000P.

Leave enough room when wiring up your fuse block so you can get the clamp around single wires and still read the display. The Display is not too friendly at wider angles, almost have to face it directly.

 

[Clan Graham]

Hey uhh ... I just saw this thing ....

http://www.dyersonline.com/camco-solar-refrigerator-roof-vent-system.html

Is there any reason this would not work well to keep my fridge running ?

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