Battery Hell ! Could really use some advice ...

[Clan Graham]

Any chance the charger or cranking batteries can go under the 2 x 4 and plywood bed frame, inside the bus ? This would let me keep the leads really short.

Short leads are good. But remember that you are going to have to have regular access to any batteries you put under your bed. You will have to design your bed to make this easy to do.

Regards
John

Thanks John ... This will be very easy for me to do actually. Other than that, you see any issues with placing the starting batteries under the bed ?

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Ok ... my brain is fried completely from days of cutting with a hand Mitre Saw and box ... staining, sanding, painting, drilling, etc ...

If I plan on placing my Golf Cart batteries under the bed, on a precision sliding shelf for access, my Starting batteries can now be placed in the factory position, which will allow them to be regular batteries instead of Sealed. Will save me money.

May I get an opinion on my tentative plan to use two of these batteries as my Starting batteries ?

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...ionPath=L1*14920|L2*15000|L3*15597#fragment-2

Or for the same money or less, can you recommend anything better ?

 

[SternWake]

How big is the tray for your starting batteries in your engine compartment? Will it fit two group 31's?

2 group 24's in parallel have the same sizefootpring as 2 6vGC's in series but are shorter

How Distant is the engine compartment from where your house bank will be located. Think circuit path, not just distance.

That battery has impressive ratings

One might be sufficient as a starting battery. Two in parallel as starting batteries should give the confident warm and fuzzies every time you crank the starter.

If you have an advance auto nearby. Get one battery hook it up and see how it cranks that cat engine on a cold morning. If you think it should crank faster, or notice it slowing down during cranking, get another one and put it in parallel, with fat interconnecting cables.

A precision sliding battery tray under the bed, made with a Miterbox and hand saw?

Those are impressive skills.

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By the way, what is your intended elevation? Generators lose some grunt at higher elevations, perhaps the powermax 85 amp would be safer, leave you a bit more buffer without slowing down recharging times too significantly

 

[Clan Graham]

Hi SternWake .... yes I am that good with my hands LOL. Yes on the sliding drawer ... easily.

My factroy battery tray is HUGE ! There are two 8D batteries in there right now. See ?

And if you look at the below photo, you will see our bus with the battery compartment shown in red. The yellow/blue box above it is exactly where our bed goes, with room underneath for a LOT of stuff. Batteries and charger.

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By the way, what is your intended elevation? Generators lose some grunt at higher elevations, perhaps the powermax 85 amp would be safer, leave you a bit more buffer without slowing down recharging times too significantly

Sea Level good man !

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How big is the tray for your starting batteries in your engine compartment? Will it fit two group 31's?

EASILY !

2 group 24's in parallel have the same sizefootpring as 2 6vGC's in series but are shorter

??? What are you saying please ?

How Distant is the engine compartment from where your house bank will be located. Think circuit path, not just distance.

Engine is literally right behind the battery compartment ... maybe 2 feet away max.

 

[SternWake]

A sliding drawer capable of holding 360 lbs of battery, is impressive. Or will it be a rolling drawer?

Why is that one 8D battery sitting lower than the other? is that tray compromised?

Group 24 batteries are 10 1/4" long by 6 13/16" wide and 8 7/8" tall
GC-2 batteries are 10 3/8 long by 7 3/16" wide and 10 5/8 tall

Similar "footprint", L x W, but the GC2s are taller. If you can fit the height of 6 GC batteries, and have 2 group 24 starting batteries right next to the house battery, it will simplify wiring, but access for watering the GC's is still very important, as if it is difficult to do, you will be reluctant to do so.

Making it easy to check and water the house batteries cannot be overstated. The starting batteries will rarely need any.

http://www.rtpnet.org/teaa/bcigroup.html.

If you can get the 3 pairs of GC2 below the passenger compartment, perhaps with a sealing access hatch from above, it will be better in terms of venting, and not having flooded batteries inside the living quarters.

Ok Sea Level should not have any issues with the Powermax 100 amp unit on a Honda 2000. It will be working hard so you will not really be able to power much more than the converter, until the batteries start accepting less from the converter.

 

[Clan Graham]

A sliding drawer capable of holding 360 lbs of battery, is impressive. Or will it be a rolling drawer? Oh hell ... It becomes obvious if they were to go under the bed frame, they would have to be solid in place under it, with removable access doors above them.

Why is that one 8D battery sitting lower than the other? is that tray compromised?
The tray is a nice thick custom made steel tray, which is simply tilted because it was never bolted down properly by the former owner. I will get that done of course.

Group 24 batteries are 10 1/4" long by 6 13/16" wide and 8 7/8" tall
GC-2 batteries are 10 3/8 long by 7 3/16" wide and 10 5/8 tall

Similar "footprint", L x W, but the GC2s are taller. If you can fit the height of 6 GC batteries, and have 2 group 24 starting batteries right next to the house battery, it will simplify wiring, but access for watering the GC's is still very important, as if it is difficult to do, you will be reluctant to do so.

OK ... Here we go on the size thing again LOL. I can not honestly say I have precisely measured the room in the battery compartment yet. What I can tell you, is there are TWO 132.3 pound, 8D batteries which measure 11" wide x 20.75" long x 9.63" high fitting comfortably in there at this time. But there is NOT a matching compartment on the other side, which means one set of batteries will most likely need to go under our bed.


Making it easy to check and water the house batteries cannot be overstated. The starting batteries will rarely need any.

If this is the case, I will need to measure and see just how much room I actually have under the bus, and see if six of the GC batteries will fit under there.



If you can get the 3 pairs of GC2 below the passenger compartment, perhaps with a sealing access hatch from above, it will be better in terms of venting, and not having flooded batteries inside the living quarters.

Will just have to measure and see. The access won't be from above though, but from that custom battery tray, currently canted, which slides out.

Ok Sea Level should not have any issues with the Powermax 100 amp unit on a Honda 2000. It will be working hard so you will not really be able to power much more than the converter, until the batteries start accepting less from the converter.

I asked for a direct product suggestion, and I get it ! Thanks. I had not even heard of this one, and was stuck on Iota, which I had heard a lot of.

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NEWSFLASH !! I now know the 6 Golf Cart batteries will definitely fit under the bus, in the sliding compartment. But I do not think the Group 24s will also fit under there ... I will have to find out tomorrow.

 

[Clan Graham]

My battery tray measures :

OK, I did the measurement today, and I have a total of 23" deep x 25.5" wide. This is my factory underneath battery compartment.

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And this means I will NOT have the room for both, the House batteries and the Starting batteries in the factory battery compartment. I will look closely and see if there is any other place nearby, under the bus the Starting batteries can go. Otherwise they will most likely have to go under our bed with the battery charger. Hell ... I don't even know where the generator is going yet ! LOL It really sucks those two forward compartments on each side is so FAR away from the engine in the rear.

 

[SternWake]

Well that fil fit 3 pair of GC's.
A couple questions to ask yourself:

How difficult will it be to water those batteries in that steel tray?

How difficult is it going to be to wire those batteries in series parallel if the tray does not allow easy access.

If the tray slides out for access, will the cables there have now the slack needed for sliding?

How will the batteries be secured to the tray, have you thought of a tie down method to keep them from rattling around in the compartment? Gc batteries are tall and tippier and they can't just rely on gravity to keep them secure.

Watering batteries in a tight spot is a Pain. One needs to look down into the cell from above with a good light ( and eye protection) to determine electrolyte levels.


Overfilling the battery is a NoNo, and trying to fill it properly with a mirror is pretty much impossible. Underfilling it leave you at risk of exposing plates and instant capacity loss.

Also consider the difficulty of moving and lowering 65 lb batteries into place. I'm early 40's with thick shoulders and moving a 67 Lb battery into or out of my battery tray from above uses a significant portion of my available strength and seriously aggravates my problem neck.

 

[Clan Graham]

Well that fil fit 3 pair of GC's.
A couple questions to ask yourself:

How difficult will it be to water those batteries in that steel tray?

While the tray WILL slide out easily, I also plan to mount a full sized mirror on the ceiling of the battery compartment, and four of the push to turn on LED puck lights which run from AA batteries to light up the compartment. This will make it rather easy to use the mirror system, since I will not have to be holding either the light or the mirror. Using a long flexible piece of tubing makes slowly adding water easy to do ... easy to remove as well.

How difficult is it going to be to wire those batteries in series parallel if the tray does not allow easy access.

If the tray slides out for access, will the cables there have now the slack needed for sliding?

I plan on using very high quality Car Audio Power Cable to wire the batteries. It is the same guage, heavily insulated, O2 Free, and VERY, VERY flexible, if you buy the right brand.

.
How will the batteries be secured to the tray, have you thought of a tie down method to keep them from rattling around in the compartment? Gc batteries are tall and tippier and they can't just rely on gravity to keep them secure.

Yup ... Going to strap them down with a bolted down steel bracket. They will NOT move ever.


Watering batteries in a tight spot is a Pain. One needs to look down into the cell from above with a good light ( and eye protection) to determine electrolyte levels.

See above about the mirror and lights


Also consider the difficulty of moving and lowering 65 lb batteries into place. I'm early 40's with thick shoulders and moving a 67 Lb battery into or out of my battery tray from above uses a significant portion of my available strength and seriously aggravates my problem neck.

Oh I am not looking forward to it, but being a giant of a man makes it easier.

 

[SternWake]

The Mirror system for looking down into the cells is not an easy one.

I have excellent vision and ambidextrous skills. I can easily read and write upside down, and read things in a mirror, but I found judging the electrolyte level accurately with a light and a mirror, to be very difficult.

If I unscrew my fridge and slide it out of the way so I could look straight down into the cell, I found this to be less stressful and less work than setting up lighting and methods to hold the mirror at the exact angle needed to look within the battery. I found that when I did move the fridge after filling using the mirror method, that I was way off. 3/8 an inch or so on average and 2 of these cells had their plates exposed when all the others were just covered.

I now only have one battery in my tray instead of two. Part of that decision was based on the curse fest required to get water in those last 3 cells at the right level.

It sounds as if you have steel fabricating skills too. Any chance of adding or extending the battery tray or making a hatch to look down at them from above?

 

[Clan Graham]

The Mirror system for looking down into the cells is not an easy one.

It sounds as if you have steel fabricating skills too. Any chance of adding or extending the battery tray or making a hatch to look down at them from above?

Yuck .... Well yes, I could technically make a hatch above them, but that is exactly where the bed is going to be. Possible of course, but I MAY be able to make the battery tray extendable.

 

[Duck]

The Mirror system for looking down into the cells is not an easy one.

I have excellent vision and ambidextrous skills. I can easily read and write upside down, and read things in a mirror, but I found judging the electrolyte level accurately with a light and a mirror, to be very difficult.

If I unscrew my fridge and slide it out of the way so I could look straight down into the cell, I found this to be less stressful and less work than setting up lighting and methods to hold the mirror at the exact angle needed to look within the battery. I found that when I did move the fridge after filling using the mirror method, that I was way off. 3/8 an inch or so on average and 2 of these cells had their plates exposed when all the others were just covered.

I now only have one battery in my tray instead of two. Part of that decision was based on the curse fest required to get water in those last 3 cells at the right level.

It sounds as if you have steel fabricating skills too. Any chance of adding or extending the battery tray or making a hatch to look down at them from above?

What about if you didn't need to see your batteries as often?

To reduce off-gassing and corrosion in engine bays(especially where there might be dozens of large flooded batteries) I've used a few options
There are caps of differing heights to limit the water loss such as:
http://www.cleanenergybrands.com/sh...%2dMiser-Flip%2dTop-Cap-Standard-Height-.html
They allow hot air to escape, and return without letting acid/water out as much as possible.
very helpful for filling and for containment. Inexpensive option. I like these the most.

Watering from a remote location, handy if battery access sucks.
https://www.flow-rite.com/battery-watering
More expensive, easy to use once installed.


http://thermoil.com/
Oil additive you pour into the batteries, doesn't seem to stop water loss entirely, but does seem to keep the acid in the cell, reducing corrosion, and does help keep the water in the cell longer. The caps are much better though.
No clearance issues

 

[SternWake]

My 12v batteries never allowed using such caps or watering devices, so i have no experience with them.

I have read that some claim the catalysts in the water miser caps wears out and that they start using water unbeknownst to the user who finds that that their batteries are low.

Again no personal experience. heresay.

The mineral oil added to the cells, In my opinion, should only be done to Stationary batteries, not ones in an RV which can slosh the electrolyte around inside the battery. Oil covered plates are probably as bad as sulfated plates.

They might very well be effective in reducing water loss, but how is the owner to know if they are effective or not unless they pop the caps and have a look inside.

Making it easy to pop the caps and have a look inside is wise. Making it difficult to check can lead to premature battery failure of one goes too long, because the process is dreaded.

I think there is a tendency for Dwellers to overbuild their beds. Having a strong hinged lid to access the storage underneath, and perhaps an Airtight Hatch going through the floor that one can also lift to access the batteries can be engineered.

I don't like the batteries inside the living compartment not only for the fumes, but for the loss of storage too. Also the lower the batteries, the lower the CG of the vehicle, making it safer in emergency maneuvers.

 

[Clan Graham]

Uhmm , I do not think the Optima Red Tops off gas or need water ever added. Seems they could go under the bed.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Uhmm , I do not think the Optima Red Tops off gas or need water ever added. Seems they could go under the bed.

Quite true. However, they cost a LOT more than regular wet cell batteries. I sorta got the impression from your earlier posts that you weren't related to Bill Gates and didn't have access to his petty cash fund.

BTW, Optima used to have an excellent reputation, but I've seen reports in various RV forums that they moved their production overseas and that quality control ain't what is was.

Regards
John

 

[Zil]

I also frequent a Sailing Forum. While a few praise their Glass Mat batteries, far more have documented short life, and other problems with the Glass Mat type when used for house banks.

 

[Clan Graham]

Ok then .... The Optimas are out then. I will study my options further for Starting batteries which can go inside with me, if they must.

 

[SternWake]

Optimas use to excel in high vibration high physical stress environments.

Johnson Controls bought Optima and move production to Mexico, and the stellar reputation they enjoyed still lingers but is undeserved.

They might perform fine as starting batteries. They do have good CCA for their size weight, but they have less capacity compared to a rectangular battery.

If you are putting starting batteries inside, and want AGM batteries, back to the sears die hard platinum/Odyssey . Though there are lots of AGM manufacturers like east penn/deka/ Lifeline/ Fullriver/ Northstar, Concorde.

In general AGMs weigh more and have slightly less capacity in comparison to flooded batts, in the same group size

 

[Clan Graham]

Ok ... the single Starting battery issue is solved ... If I can not find anywhere to place a pair of Starting batteries outside of the living quarters, I will place ONE of these under the bed :

http://www.sears.com/diehard-platin...p-02850131000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

 

[Clan Graham]

And that would be along with the battery charger, which would be DIRECTLY over the House batteries under the bus, and allows me to also mount the switch somewhere in that exact area. Minimizing literally ALL of the wiring. This only leaves me having to find a place for the generator.

But I am beginning to find myself comfortable with this set up. I have to constantly remember one important thing : In my excitement for finding a decent bus locally, I did not realize my bus was a 32 foot bus, instead of the advertised 40 footer.

And uhh ... That is a game changer for us. Space is considerably more crucial to us now. And it has already reared up and bitt me ... as the Old South would say LOL.

And here is how that is : We DO NOT have that extra under storage compartment in the rear by the engine. This means no simple place to put all of the electrical in one spot, without having longish leads in one place at least. So now I will put my 25 years of car audio engineering into use, and try and find a way to get it all mounted in the same basic area. And I do not know yet if it can be done at this point. Bad weather prevents me from driving out of town to measure it.

So having said I am finally getting comfortable with this proposed plan, if you see anything simply wrong with it, NOW is the time to speak up !

 

[Zil]

That die hard does not sound bad. You could get a wet cell for about $100, but would have the extra maintenance and the various safety issues. Try to find out what sears wants for a trade-in as with none you will have another $30 for the deposit. You have the existing battery compartment to use for your house bank, generator and other house power equipment??