Basics for wiring up electronics?

[SoulRaven]

I'm recalling a thread here talking about how frequently used electronics are best wired directly into the system rather than using a 12V socket, is that correct?

Laptop chargers keep breaking on me, my most recent one very clearly on its way out the past 2 days, so while I'm pretty overwhelmed by other projects at the moment communications are essential so I'm wondering if someone might be able to offer a basic step-by-step that might be doable, at least as a short-term solution?

I currently use a grid charger plugged into my inverter (inverter is not the issue, same problem plugged into a house outlet). I purchased a 12V charger last year and and am awaiting the second replacement, as neither the first one nor its replacement lasted even a week. Apparently my return got lost in the mail so there's been a lengthy delay.

I've got a fusebox properly hooked up to the battery, extra spots on it and extra fuses. My laptop charger is 40 watts, and the laptop itself says DC rating is 2.1A.

How doable is this for someone new to electronics?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Hi Bitty

You're right about the 12 volt outlets, they were designed for intermittent use as a cigarette lighter and they really don't hold up well as a long term electrical connection.

Should be no problem to cut the plug off the 12 volt charger and run the two wires to the fuse box.  Just be sure to use the right fuse to protect it, in many cases the plug had a fuse built in to it and you have now done away with that when you cut the plug off.

Oh, and you do have to get the wires right, the one from the center of the plug is the positive.

Regards
John

 

[ahh_me2]

Most laptops run at around 18volts, do you currently have a charger that plugs in to 12 volts and outputs 18-19 volts?

My laptop charger outputs 19 volts @ 2.37 amps from 120 volt input

Just trying to get a better understanding of what you are doing.

 

[highdesertranger]

what keeps breaking? the reason I ask is you still might be able to use the broken one if you hard wire it. highdesertranger

 

[SoulRaven]

Okay, I feel stupid...while double-checking everything I discovered the 12V charger that keeps breaking on me is 30watts, while my laptop's grid charger is 40w. That probably explains why they keep  breaking on me. Should I bother with the replacement at all or just bite the bullet to get a 40w one?

Hi Bitty

You're right about the 12 volt outlets, they were designed for intermittent use as a cigarette lighter and they really don't hold up well as a long term electrical connection.

Should be no problem to cut the plug off the 12 volt charger and run the two wires to the fuse box.  Just be sure to use the right fuse to protect it, in many cases the plug had a fuse built in to it and you have now done away with that when you cut the plug off.

Oh, and you do have to get the wires right, the one from the center of the plug is the positive.

Regards
John

Thanks, John, that's exactly the sort of explanation I needed to wrap my head around it. How do I know which fuse I should use to protect it?

Most laptops run at around 18volts, do you currently have a charger that plugs in to 12 volts and outputs 18-19 volts?

My laptop  charger outputs 19 volts @ 2.37 amps from 120 volt input

Just trying to get a better understanding of what you are doing.

I had one, currently processing the second replacement. It's supposed to output 19.5 volts, but the second one stopped charging my laptop due to it not actually outputting 19.5 volts.

what keeps breaking?  the reason I ask is you still might be able to use the broken one if you hard wire it.  highdesertranger

Good idea. I only have one of the malfuncitoning ones; they asked me to return the other one when I contacted them about the second replacement. To my recollection the one I still have is completely dead, either that or just the light at the socket turned on both the light at the box did not. Either way, I'll rescue it from its intended path to recycling and play around with it. I don't think I yet have the necessary tools to actually work on wires, and practicing on one that can't get any deader would help me feel more confident before I cut up a perfectly good one.

Speaking of which...can anyone tell me what are the basic tools I need to do this sort of thing? I'm thinking I should be able to pick up a used multitool that has at least pliers and a wire cutter. Is there anything else I should make an effort to include with that, or other suggestions?

Thanks everyone.

 

[SoulRaven]

DO NOT !!! wire your laptop directly !!!  The voltage is wrong !!!

 

[SoulRaven]

DO NOT !!! wire your laptop directly !!!  The voltage is wrong !!!

That's not what I meant, sorry I'm not very familiar with the correct electrical terms. I'm referring more to what Optimistic Paranoid was describing.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

all you need to work on wires is a pair of side cutters, you can get by with a knife and a pair of pliers if you had to, a knife and lighter would also work. You will need some electrical tape. I know there are a lot of other tools you can buy but if you are not planning on doing a lot of wiring......

 

[SoulRaven]

I use cigarette lighter plugs all of time and have never had a problem.

I would check your car charger to see if it has a fuse in it. Some of them can be accessed by unscrewing the center pin that plugs in to the lighter outlet. Frequently the fuses shipped with these are sub standard, and will blow out quickly. Replacing them with a good quality BUSS brand fuse will frequently solve most if not all of your problems.

The second most likely problem is a cold joint, either a solder connection, or possibly a bad crimp connection. With any amount of luck, your ciggy plug will be held together with simple screws rather than either riveted, or glued together. If it's held together with screws, it is a simple matter to open it up to inspect it.

The best way to check for a bad connection is with an OHM meter. If each of the probes are touching opposite sides of the connection, and the needle doesn't max out, you have a faulty connection. I haven't bought one in a very long time, but they used to have liquid solder pens available. Bad solder joints could sometimes be fixed just by adding a dab of the liquid solder onto it. If that doesn't work, the repair is probably more difficult than you'll want to tackle.

If everything on the ciggy plug end seems to check out, I would next perform a similar check on the computer end plug if possible.

Your multi tester should also be capable of telling you if the unit is working correctly without it being plugged into the computer.

 

[Konaexpress]

Sounds like a lot of guessing going on. I would think one of the van dwelling engineers would think of a NEW off the shelf conector that everyone could could settle on.

The old plug in cigarette lighter is now obsolete, this is now settled.

Now what do we do?

John

 

[SoulRaven]

Sounds like a lot of guessing going on. I would think one of the van dwelling engineers would think of a NEW off the shelf conector that everyone could could settle on.

The old plug in cigarette lighter is now obsolete, this is now settled.

Now what do we do?

John

Everyone but a select few has long since decided that the cigarette lighter plugs, or accessory plugs as they are sometimes called are the time proven most reliable and durable method of powering 12v portable devices in a vehicle.  They are standard equipment in many new vehicles to this day, so they are far from obsolete.

While USB ports are becoming more common in newer vehicles, I have serious doubts that they will eliminate the standard accessory ports any time soon, because I am not seeing the 12v accessories that many of us use on a regular basis, getting converted to USB powered.  The USB ports are not nearly as durable in everyday use, and don't typically carry the amount of current that accessory ports offer.

 

[SternWake]

Ciggy plugs are a joke of an electrical connection, relying on spring pressure and steel as a conductor.  They are one of the highest resistance electrical connections possible, and the only thing worse than high resistance in a 12vDC world is high resistance in a 6vDC world.


Resistance = heat
Enough heat= spring loaded contact failure= more heat= melted plastic, blown fuses, wasted battery power as heat.

However, this joke and foible of an electrical  connection can handle 30 or 40 watts pretty easily.  It is in the 55 to 60 watt range when heating and problems might arise
90 watts continuous and you better make sure to push back on the connector, make sure it is fully seated and not heating excessively, check the tip spring for heat.

120 watts continuous is basically the limit on a Ciggy plug.. It can go higher if it is well wired and a good design, but this is NOT what is coming installed on a laptop car adapter rated at 30 watts.

When Ciggy plugs prove to be problematic  One could seek higher quality marine units like the BlueSeas:
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...455353252&sr=8-4&keywords=blue+sea+12v+outlet

But even this is only rated for 150 watts

The plug with this unit has a 10 amp fuse in it.  One can feed their own wires into it, or the wires from a laptop car adapter, and strip the wires and crush them under set screws and reassemble.  If you can turn a screwdriver, you can put a new plug on a cord to replace a failed or poor quality unit.

When mated with the blue seas 12v receptacle there is a little locking mechanism that keeps the plug from wiggling itself out, This also keeps the 'nipple' contact pushed tightly against the (+) contact at the base of the receptacle, which is the main problem with this design of  this style connector.  Also there is a little rubber piece that seals out moisture and also acts to hold the plug tightly in the receptacle, perhaps too tightly.

Here is a unit rated for 20 amps/240 watts: But I kind of doubt it can truly handle that much current continuously even if wired with 10awg to fuse block a short distance away..
http://www.amazon.com/Weatherproof-...3795&sr=8-1&keywords=20+amp+12v+outlet+marine



As far as what to replace it with, I have converted to Anderson powerpoles in the 45 amp flavor.
But these are not as convenient to connect as just slamming a ciggy plug home in a receptacle
They also require some crimping and or soldering skills. To crimp them properly they sell a special crimper tool for ~40$.  Those with some crimping skills and tools can easily crimp the 15 and 30 amps versions, but the 45 takes more skill to do right.

The 45 amp, 30 amp and 15 amp versions will all mate with each other.  The 45 amps ones are the hardest to crimp.  They can take 10 awg wire maximum. Though I have run 8awg right to them and just destranded it to 10 awg diameter at the crimp.

I regularly pass 600 watts through this 45 amp powerpole connector.

Before the Anderson powerpoles, i had foolishly adopted the SAE 12v connectors like these:

Even with the 10 awg wire, these would seriously heat up and melt passing 25 amps continuous, especially after a few dozen seating removal cycles on it.

The Anderson powerpoles are a serious step up in a DC electrical connector over the SAE connectors, but they are hardly perfect.

Going higher than 45 amps, and the Anderson Powerpoles become much larger and only mate with a connector of the same rating.

This one can handle 1 awg cable inside its contacts.

I used that connector for alternator recharging a single Lifeline gpl-31XT AGM with 2awg cable.  It passed over 100 amps until the alternator got too hot and limited output to 86 amps.

 

[Konaexpress]

Love that Blue Sea plug. Now that would be a nice one to install around the RV for daily use I would think. Would need to find a better price in bulk though.

I wonder why people have not moved to this a long time ago? If you can make a van RV, I'm sure you could put these in with no problems.

John

 

[SternWake]

About the Blue seas 12v receptacle, those little detents for 'locking' do not quite lock the plug, it can still be pulled out, it just requires significantly more force to do so.

If one buys the plug and receptacle, well the plug is rated for 10 amps, the receptacle for 15amps.

I am not sure of the diameter of the holes into which one inserts wire for the plug.  Me thinks 14awg would be no problem, actually fitting in the copper wire under the screws, but feeding two 14 awg wires through the plug end will likely require some modification/ expansion to accommodate that extra diameter.

To replace stock 12v power port/ciggy receptacles with these Blue Seas receptacles, the hole must be enlarged by about 1/8 inch.  Unless one has a nice big step drill that can go upto these diameters, the process of making the BS receptacle fit an existing hole can be time consuming depending on what tools one does have available.

One should also get some quick connects for the electrical connections on the backside.  These are fully insulated to help prevent shorts behind the panel:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Term...1455394935&sr=1-11&keywords=quick+disconnects


90 degree quick connects:
http://www.amazon.com/NSI-Industrie..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0J2SNZDVRBB1ZFZ3HE35

Proper crimping of these insulated quick connects is also important. Please read this:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination

HIs wire terminations must meet a much higher standard for a marine application( ABYC), but there is lots to learn there which is very applicable to proper wiring up of a RV.  It sucks to have to return to a connector that was not done properly in the first place, at best, at worst, it is a fire waiting to happen.


For replacing of standard 12v power port with an Blueseas/Marinco product,  also requires another 3/16" on the backside of the panel for the threaded ring which holds the receptacle tightly.  So these BS receptacles are not drop in replacements in all locations where one might desire them.

If one IS going to require more than 10 amps be passed through these Blue seas 12v receptacles, then please consider a Anderson powerpole connector instead for the appliance.  They really are a significantly better electrical connection, but certainly not as universal or convenient as a 12v powerport/ciggy receptacle.

One example I have done some measurements on was my 12v mattress heating pad.  When plugged into a well wired ciggy receptacle( 10awg) it was able to draw 6.2 amps and took a long time to heat up the mattress.  Say battery voltage was 12.4v, the voltage at the ciggy plug had dropped by over a volt, and more so once it heated up.   When I cut off the Fuseless , fairly well designed Ciggy plug and about 4 feet of 18 awg and installed anderson powerpoles instead, the voltage drop was now only 0.2v, and the pad was able to draw 7.4 amps.
It heated up much faster and could be used on a lower setting and ultimately used less battery power to work better.  Peukert might have stepped in to negate the 'less battery power' claim as a higher load on the battery reduces total available capacity, but it was rarely a factor, as I primarily used it to preheat the mattress before climbing into a 120 degree bed, then I shut it off.

This guy tests some Anderson powerpoles until failure.  At 16vDC, it melts and fails at ~360 amps.

[video=youtube]



Anderson powerpoles are hardly a perfect DC connector, but they are among the best electrical connection available in their amperage ratings.
The Ciggy plug will always be among the poorest possible connections, no matter how long they have been employed in vehicles, even back to when smoking was marketed as being good for one's health.

 

[SoulRaven]

Sternwake thanks for chiming in about your system, I wouldn't have realized there was another option otherwise. One of my ciggy plugs is actually a marine plug that twist locks, though I don't recall if it's the Blue Sea brand or not.

Since I've never done any wiring, I'm not yet married to any particular system. I would ideally like to expand my skills to be able to do all my own wiring if/when I move to a new van down the road, but for now I'm just looking to get my feet wet. Soldering is currently off the table, but crimping might be doable. Would you recommend I begin with the Anderson Powerpole system or look into it further down the road once I've actually done some wiring already? (Anyone else, feel free to chime in.)

I wonder why people have not moved to this a long time ago? If you can make a van RV, I'm sure you could put these in with no problems.

John

Konaexpress I know you're referring to people in general, but I find your comments here pretty insensitive. I started this thread saying "hey, I don't know anything about wiring and want to learn the basics" and you seem more focused on identifying a system that everyone should switch to. I personally really appreciate the variety of informative responses from different perspectives and I love it when people feel free to post about what works for them, whether or not it's a popular option. Remember, I can't (yet) make a van RV! Not the electrical part, anyway. That's why I started this thread.

 

[Konaexpress]

Konaexpress I know you're referring to people in general, but I find your comments here pretty insensitive. I started this thread saying "hey, I don't know anything about wiring and want to learn the basics" and you seem more focused on identifying a system that everyone should switch to. I personally really appreciate the variety of informative responses from different perspectives and I love it when people feel free to post about what works for them, whether or not it's a popular option. Remember, I can't (yet) make a van RV! Not the electrical part, anyway. That's why I started this thread.

In that case, I must apologize to you. It was not my intent to interfere. I saw that you were having a problem and assumed that others would have this problem too. I was only trying to help and I'm sorry that you think that I'm insensitive.

I'll leave this thread alone in hopes you find the answers your looking for.
John

 

[SternWake]

I do not have the specific crimper designed for Anderson powerpole contacts, but the Dies, the part which crushes the crimps look like they could also be used on regular crimp terminals, but the nylon insulation presents some issues. I usually remove the nylon insulation and cover the crimp with heatshrink tubing.

I have 3 different plyer type crimpers as well as a hydraulic crimper that i can use to make the 45 amps crimps, but I have screwed up a few in the past too, and they are not the cheapest of connectors to be considered disposable.

If you do have multiple connections required then their special crimper will make thigs much easier for a Newbie to do the job properly, but the Anderson specialized crimper is 40$ and i am not 100% sure it can also be used on other type of crimps without the nylon insulation.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1J6G9YMYSMP15QXEFKTJ

Again the Ciggy receptacle is OK for low wattage connections and are certainly convenient, but when one needs to pass 60+ watts continuously they are a very poor electrical connection, with the Blue seas versions being better, but ultimately still limited in what they should be asked to conduct continuously.

There are many videos of powerpole assembly on Youtube to check out and get a better idea if you feel this is within your capabilities.
The 15 and 30 amp powerpoles are actually easy to crimp with a normal crimper, it is just the 45's have these wings which must be folded down over the wire, rather than just the wire inserted into a barrel and crimped around it.

I pretty much buy the 45 amp versions exclusively, but for 18 awg wire they are excessive and the small wire diameter makes a proper crimp more difficult. One of the hardest parts is inserting the crimped contact into the plastic housing until it clicks. this is easy with 15 and 30 amp versions, unless the wire stranding is super fine and insulation super flexible.

A good crimp requires no solder. I have taken to crimping and then soldering over the crimp, but this can also lead to problems with excessive solder preventing proper mating of contact into housing, and the solder needs to avoid the area where the contacts mate with each other when clicked together. Proper soldering is an acquired skill too as one wants the heat transfer to be good and of short duration, otherwise one can easily melt the wire insulation, or have solder wick up the wire making it brittle. This wicking possibility is why Soldering is not allowed on any airplane.

I don't think Kona express was intentionally being insensitive to you, rather was trying to understand why such a horrible 12v connector is so widely employed and is considered a standard in Rv/vehicular usage, when it is so limited in its capabilities due to such an inherently poor original design which has become the defacto standard

If my funds were plentiful I would definitely buy the special anderson crimper as it would be a huge time saver and be a reliable connection that I would not be tempted to solder over

 

[SoulRaven]

In that case, I must apologize to you. It was not my intent to interfere. I saw that you were having a problem and assumed that others would have this problem too. I was only trying to help and I'm sorry that you think that I'm insensitive.

I'll leave this thread alone in hopes you find the answers your looking for.
John

Sorry Konaexpress, I misunderstood. Please come back! Others definitely have this problem too, and the only alternative option I know of is to learn to do your own wiring, which brought me here. If there's an easier solution out there I'm definitely all for it!