A solar design question

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bcbullet

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A quick question for the collective here....

After 4 years of weekend only use where I could recharge via shore power, I am finally going to put a solar system into my home built cube van for what will hopefully be some long term off grid travel. I plan on 600+ watts or thereabouts for panels and 4x (or maybe six) 6 volt FLA's for storage.

 (pics here:    http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/show-us-something-that-you-made.523072/page-199#post-23743845  )

Now for the question: Is there an advantage to wiring for a "lead and lag" system whereby there are 2 entirely separate solar and storage systems? When I say separate, I mean completely...separate panels, charge controllers, alternator feeds, batteries and all? I am thinking there may be some battery longevity gains if each bank is allowed to FULLY recharge without any simultaneous draw during charging...? Or perhaps I should use the full output of the solar panels/single controller and just swap a single PV system bank to bank for recharging while drawing from the lead bank? I can't seem to find any answers on whether there are any advantages to this and I don't know if charge controllers are "smart" enough to compensate for the attached load while providing charging...if they are, I would just go for one combined system and not worry about splitting banks.

Thanks everyone!
 
Generally if you have enough solar, you will not need to isolate one bank to fully charge it. The final 5% of recharging requires time, and not very high amperages, so the size of the loads present on the batteries during the 80% to 100% charged range are important, so one can maintain absorption voltage of 14.8v at 77f for trojan t-105 GC batteries.

Many people do choose this approach of dual battery banks, but instead of two controllers, they use a Marine style 1/2/both/Off switch or two to move all the loads or charging sources to the other battery bank. No secondary solar controller necessary with this.

There are advantages to one large battery bank, regarding the peukert effect, but if your loads are small this is not much of a factor. Peukerts law basically says the larger the load on the battery, the less capacity the battery has to give, so a larger battery bank is less affected by large loads than a smaller one on the same loads.

I use 3 1/2/both Off switches. One for the original Van ignition system, one for all house loads, one for the Solar and other charging sources. This was most convenient with my previous petulant group31 house battery which needed a 16volt EQ charge every 14 cycles or so. I'd Switch ignition and loads to the other battery and crank up the solar voltage to 16v for as long as it would take to max out the specific gravity and 'reset' the battery capacity to the maximum of its remaining capacity..

That battery lived out its cycle life and I now only have one single 90AH AGM battery for both house and engine starting duties, So all three switches are set to "2"

I use and recommend these Switches over other brands:
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-m-Series-Selector/dp/B015ZPJL7M

I'd recommend not going for two separate battery banks and solar systems, but instead just getting more Solar, if you can actually fit more on the roof, unshaded.

EQ charging, trojan recommends 15.5v, does present an issue, and EQ charging can significantly extend battery life when performed when needed, and regularly. over 15 volts is danger territory for SOME 12 volt electronics, so it is nice to be able to not expose them to these voltages, at the turn of a switch.

More than one way to skin the cat. Getting more battery life can be accomplished with just more solar wattage which can get to absorption voltage earlier in the day, and be able to maintain it under higher loads, and having a programmable solar controller so one can hold absorption voltage until specific gravity maxes out.

The actual gains of a dual battery bank/solar system might never be realized. If maximizing battery longevity is the goal, then the correct absorption voltage for the battery temperature, held long enough, is the key, and this is most easily accomplished by having a surplus of solar, and a solar controller which allows one to fine tune voltage and duration to approach maximum baseline specific gravity of the cells each recharge cycle.

In general getting from 80% charged to 100% takes 4 hours, no matter how powerful the charging source might be. The Hydrometer, excess solar wattage, a programmable solar controller, and the will and knowledge to use all 3 to their potential, will have the happiest longest lived batteries.

The more often one gets to do a 100% recharge, the less often a 16v EQ charge is required, and it will take less time at 15.5 to 16v to max out specific gravity and be less abusive to the battery.

Only a Hydrometer can definitively say when a flooded battery is fully charged. Many people assume that their solar controller dropping to float voltage signifies a fully charged battery. This is not correct, especially on those systems whose batteries are discharged regularly to 50%. Premature sulfation usually does not ring its ugly head until it is too late to do anything about it. For most people they declare a ' just fine' and 'performing just like new', until that one day when their remaining battery capacity has declined to the point it can no longer power their overnight needs.

A battery slowly loses capacity. It loses it slower when properly fully recharged as promptly as possible.

A solar controller dropping to float voltage does not signify the battery is fully charged, only that absorption voltage was held as long as programed to do so. The correct absorption voltage, and duration at which it is to be held for a specific battery temperature, is a moving target depending on depth of discharge and health of the battery, so a 'one size fits all' charge algorithm common on less expensive controllers is more of a one size fits none.

So, an adjustable solar controller programmed correctly, and more than enough solar wattage to get to absorption voltage earlier in the day, is the easiest way to prolong battery longevity.

I'd aim for more well than one solar watt for 1H of battery capacity, and the deeper the % of discharge, the higher the ratio required to keep batteries happy, but other charging sources can alleviate this ratio's requirements if applied regularly.

A thickly wired alternator can relatively quickly get batteries upto 80% charged as charging below 80% is pretty efficient. It is once batteries reach absorption voltage that they start restriciting the amperage they require to not exceed absorption voltage.

When using a plug in charging source, trojan recommends 10 to 13% charge rate, or ~23 to 30 amps for a single pair of t-105s in series for 12 volts.

Keep in mind that a pair of t-105 batteries drained to 50% can easily accept 80amps.

A 1 to 1 ratio is really quite light, in terms of charge rate percentage Rolls surrette, the premier flooded battery maker recommends sizing an off grid solar system so that it approaches the 20% rate which is closer to 3 watts to 1AH of capacity.

So, go for more solar wattage if the goal is maximizing battery longevity, and performance during that lifespan. It is far too easy to have too much battery capacity for too little solar, but nearly impossible to have too much solar for the battery capacity.
 
SternWake said:
Generally if you have enough solar, 
Fantastic SternWake! Thanks for taking the time out of your day for the excellent reply! 
So in a nutshell, a single bank system will be fine with heaps of solar and the controller will be able to charge even under load (assuming quality and programmable charge conditions). That is great news as what I would have spent on the redundancies I can now put into panels and batteries instead. 
Many thanks!
 
Yep, hard to go wrong with more solar and a quality controller that can handle the panels wattage and voltage, and allows for user adjustments to Absorption voltage and duration to maximize Specific gravity, daily.

I'd love another 100 watts to add to my 198. I might be able to shoehorn 50 more, but for now using less electricity or driving more in the wintertime will have to suffice.

How often an EQ charge will be required is highly variable, but it is quite nice to not have to unplug everything which might be damaged from 16 volts when applying the EQ charge. So a quality switch to swap loads to another battery simplifies things and gives a modest redundancy.

Some absorption fridge circuit boards release their magic smoke above 15.3v, and most inverters do not like voltages over 15. Regular EQ charges when required, will give that extra battery longevity you seek, so making these more convenient to initiate can directly relate to battery longevity too.

My previous group31 battery required them so often that if it required more expenditure on my part than flipping a switch and changing charging voltages upto 16v, I would not have bothered, and failure would have likely occurred at ~250 cycles rather than the nearly 500 cycles I did ultimately get from it.

So keep the EQ charge, upto 16v in mind, and be able to either remove voltage sensitive accessories from the battery diring the EQ charge, or switch them to another battery for its duration.
 
I have three totally separate systems, 4 panels, 3 controllers and 3 battery banks. It was mostly an accident since my system grew over 6 years, and I have a trailer I live in in the summer then travel in the van in the summer so each needs a system. But I'm really glad its that way and would tell you to give serious thought to it yourself. Why?

1) Redundancy--if something fails in the middle of nowhere you still have power from the other bank.
2) Power Management-- You can control where the power comes from. If one bank is getting drawn down too much, you can move the load to another bank. I have a few things hard-wired to different banks but I have lots of ciggy plug and USB items so they can be plugged into any bank I want.
3) My heaviest load is on the biggest bank, but if it runs down I can switch it or take something else off that bank

The reason not to do it is obviously the cost, you'll pay more. But as Sternwake mentioned the Peukert effect comes into play as well. To get around that I have a on-off switch between two of the banks (2, 2-6-volt banks, 4 total when connected) together that's enough to run my 2000 watt inverter and my microwave.

With 600 watts you should have plenty of power coming in, breaking the systems up will give you great control of the power going out, letting you keep your batteries happier.
Bob
 

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