2 Deep Cycle Batteries Down the Drain

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offroad said:
Thanks john. Perfect explanation. Now need to find a page that shows how two 6v batteries from a golf cart are connected and charged for maximum balance. If there are any tricks and tips.  As series connection is used but there should be some good guide somewhere.

This is really simple.  You run a wire from the positive terminal from one battery to the negative terminal of the other.  You take your hookup from the two other terminals - positive on one and negative on the other.  This, in effect, turns the two 6 volt batteries into one large 12 volt battery.

If you have more than 2 6v batteries, now your into simultaneous series-parallel hook ups.  The Lifeline Battery Technical Manual, available at their website, has good diagrams on this, starting on page 15 of the manual.

Regards
John 
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
This is really simple.  You run a wire from the positive terminal from one battery to the negative terminal of the other.  You take your hookup from the two other terminals - positive on one and negative on the other.  This, in effect, turns the two 6 volt batteries into one large 12 volt battery.

If you have more than 2 6v batteries, now your into simultaneous series-parallel hook ups.  The Lifeline Battery Technical Manual, available at their website, has good diagrams on this, starting on page 15 of the manual.

Regards
John 

I realize you're talking about 6v batteries here, but it seems it would be the same when connecting two 12v batteries, and mine are currently connected negative to negative, which seems wrong to me. But, if it's wrong, then connecting my solar panel to the positive of one batt, and the negative of the other shouldn't give me any charge at all, so I guess it's okay? I don't recall how they were connected before the guy at Shasta helped me by disconnecting, cleaning, and reconnecting everything.
 
Nana4Twins said:
It helps immensely, thank you!  I have shore power where I'm going to be workamping.  Should I leave the batteries ON while hooked up to it, or OFF?  While I'm in town, I'm using an extension cord from my friend's house to charge my laptop/phone, and plan to get a separate charging station for that purpose so I'm not drawing off the house batteries in the future.  I've turned off the "climate control" on the fridge, hoping to reduce the draw there, and other than that, I don't think there's much else I can do when not at FHUs.  New batteries are a must, though, as these poor things are shot.

Most RVs have a device called a CONVERTER (not to be confused with an INVERTER).  It's function is to take 120 volt AC and convert it into 12 volt DC.  It's how the 12 volt lights, water pump, propane and CO2 detectors, etc. get their power when you are plugged into shore power.

It also serves as a not-terribly-efficient trickle charger to charge your batteries.  You might as well leave the batteries hooked up.  Who knows, maybe a couple of weeks of that will bring the charge back, and it won't cost you anything to try it.  Just make sure the water is up on all the cells, and the battery connections are clean and tight.

BTW, People who put their RVs into a storage facility for several months, and who leave the converter running for months at a time, often find that it has overcharged their batteries, boiling the water out and ruining the batteries.  You DO need to check the water level on them once a month or so while you are plugged in to shore power for long periods of time.

Regards
John  
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
Most RVs have a device called a CONVERTER (not to be confused with an INVERTER).  It's function is to take 120 volt AC and convert it into 12 volt DC.  It's how the 12 volt lights, water pump, propane and CO2 detectors, etc. get their power when you are plugged into shore power.

It also serves as a not-terribly-efficient trickle charger to charge your batteries.  You might as well leave the batteries hooked up.  Who knows, maybe a couple of weeks of that will bring the charge back, and it won't cost you anything to try it.  Just make sure the water is up on all the cells, and the battery connections are clean and tight.

BTW, People who put their RVs into a storage facility for several months, and who leave the converter running for months at a time, often find that it has overcharged their batteries, boiling the water out and ruining the batteries.  You DO need to check the water level on them once a month or so while you are plugged in to shore power for long periods of time.

Regards
John  

I will do that, thank you!
 
Nana4Twins said:
I realize you're talking about 6v batteries here, but it seems it would be the same when connecting two 12v batteries, and mine are currently connected negative to negative, which seems wrong to me.  But, if it's wrong, then connecting my solar panel to the positive of one batt, and the negative of the other shouldn't give me any charge at all, so I guess it's okay?  I don't recall how they were connected before the guy at Shasta helped me by disconnecting, cleaning, and reconnecting everything.

If you hook 2 6v batteries in series, you get 12 volts.  If you hook 2 12v batteries in series, you get 24 volts.  That is what the military does - all military trucks, Humvees, and other vehicles are running 24 volt electrical systems.

Your 2 12v batteries are wired in parallel because you want 12 volts out.  Hooking 2 of them together in parallel just give you twice the amp-hours.

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
If you hook 2 6v batteries in series, you get 12 volts.  If you hook 2 12v batteries in series, you get 24 volts.  That is what the military does - all military trucks, Humvees, and other vehicles are running 24 volt electrical systems.

Your 2 12v batteries are wired in parallel because you want 12 volts out.  Hooking 2 of them together in parallel just give you twice the amp-hours.

Regards
John

Ohhhhh! The light is beginning to dawn. Thank you for your patience!
 
Nana4Twins said:
I realize you're talking about 6v batteries here, but it seems it would be the same when connecting two 12v batteries, and mine are currently connected negative to negative, which seems wrong to me.  But, if it's wrong, then connecting my solar panel to the positive of one batt, and the negative of the other shouldn't give me any charge at all, so I guess it's okay?  I don't recall how they were connected before the guy at Shasta helped me by disconnecting, cleaning, and reconnecting everything.

Two 6v batteries hooked up in series (which is what they are talking about) makes 12V.  If you did that with your 12V batteries, they would produce 24 volts.  All of your appliances run off 12V.  The guy at Shasta hooked them up in parallel to make one 12V battery bank which is the correct way for you.
 
Many of the converters that come installed in RV's are quite bad. Magnatec and Wfco are known to be unreliable units, with the Magnatecs being called battery boilers as they only do a single stage voltage no matter what, and if left plugged in indefinitely, will overcharge and dry out a flooded battery.


The RV converter seems to think it's first task is providing 13.6 volts and secondary is battery charging.  13.6v will charge a battery, but it might not charge it fully, not if it needs an equalization charge, because of lots of cycling, when no grid power was available.

More modern RV converters like Progressive Dynamics, Iota, and Powermax have multiple stage charging, and various amp models.  These can both power all DC appliances, when plugged in and can charge batteries with different voltage stages.
Regular Automatic battery chargers assume the battery is not hooked to any loads. If loads are hooked to an Automatic battery charger it will likely get confused and shut off, or perhaps undercharge, or even severely overcharge a battery.

And while these  multi stage converters are much better than just a constant 13.6 output, they are not ideal for battery charging.  The converter really has no idea how much power it puts out is going to the battery and how much is going to power DC loads like 12v lights ect so It cannot know when the battery is nearing full.  It is playing pin the tail on the donkey.

An ideal battery charger would sense when the amperage required to hold Absorption voltages (14.2 to 12.8v) drops below a certain figure, and this figure is different for different batteries and changes as the batteries age.

There are no perfect battery chargers, everything is a compromise, and the human charging the batteries has the best chance of truly fully charging a battery, if one has the tools to measure and apply current until the battery is indeed full.  Of course one also requires the interest and patience, as after all they are just batteries and just rented and work 'just fine' until they do not.

While undercharging obviously leaves the battery with less energy to release, undercharging also causes the battery to not be able to store as much energy as it could when it was new.  The more cycles where the battery is not brought back upto full charge, the faster the actual total available battery capacity 'walks down', never to return.  The battery can still be fully charged, but when new when it was a 100 AH battery, when it walked down in capacity it is now only a 85 AH capacity battery.  If you still pull 50 AH, which was 50% on a 100 AH battery, you are now pulling this walked down capacity battery well below 50%, and increasing the rate at which it loses capacity.  It is a slippery slope once it begins, and those with more available battery capacity  are more resistant to quick degradation, however it is easy to have too much capacity for one's charging sources too, and cycled batteries need a minimum amount of charging current.  Low and slow is oft touted as best, but not when the next discharge cycle begins that afternoon.  A high enough rate that the batteries can be 95%  or higher within 6 hours of initiating charging is wise. 

A lead acid battery is like a Balloon whose outer skin gets hard and crusty when only partially inflated.  The longer it stays deflated the more pressure one needs to apply to break the crusty skin on the balloon and allow it to expand.  But it will never expand/inflate as much as it could when it was new, but the more often it is expanded as much as possible, the longer it can still be inflated.

The equalization charge is Akin to over  expanding the balloon with extreme pressures hoping to return some flexibility to the skin.

When the skin is never stretched back to the original size, it cannot ever hope to return to that maximum inflation.

I just checked the BCI battery dimensions and it says the GC-2( 6v golf cart batteries) are indeed a  slightly larger footprint than a group24 battery.

The standard group 24 is 10 1/4" x 6 13/16" x 9 inches tall
The GC-2 6v golf cart is 10 3/8"  x 7 3/16" x  10 5/8 tall

These jar sizes are not all exactly the same.  Some have protruding handles and can vary from the above.  I've read on other forums that GC batteries in series drop in perfectly where paralleled group 24 batteries resided before but in some cases they would fight to share that same space.

GC batteries were designed around one purpose, maximum cycleability.

12v battery sizes were all originally designed around being put in an engine compartment and starting a car. When manufacturers decided to put deep cycle internals into these 12v jar sizes, the electrolyte/ lead ratios are much less than ideal, and as such, the 12v deep cycle battery, even the quality true deep cycle 12v batteries built by Crown, Trojan, USbattery, and EastPenn/Deka are all compromises, and can't endure hard cycling as well as the GC  battery which was designed around cycling in the first place.

The Flooded Marine batteries are dual purpose batteries and are closer to starting battery than true deep cycle battery in internal construction.

GC batteries not only handle deeper discharges better, they are easier to fully recharge, requiring less time at absorption voltages and when equalizing, require less time to max out Specific gravity across all cells.

One deeply cycling 12v flooded batteries has their work cut out for them if they are trying to maximize cycle life. Making sure the charging system is adequate, is necessary, just for adequate longevity, and exceptional cycle life requires much more effort.

I do Not know if 6v GC AGM batteries have the same advantage as 6c GC  flooded/wet batteries have over 12v flooded batteries. 
 
Found some 6v 230Ah batteries at Batteries Plus, for a good price, and plan to drive down Tuesday morning. There's not much extra room where the batteries are currently mounted, so it will be tight if it works at all. Regarding the 12v batts, do they increase in housing size as they increase in group number, or would I be able to get 2 Group 31s if the 6v won't fit?
 
Batteries plus has all sizes, flavors, and types of batteries.  


If you ask or help, you will more than likely get it from the guys behind the counter.

I went to Battery outfitters here in Columbia MO.  They talked me out of what I went there for, and sold me a much better unit at a much lower price.  Fullriver 224 sealed for $55 each 2 years old.  
 
Yep, they're already expecting me. I told them I'd need lots of help!
 
Nana4Twins said:
Found some 6v 230Ah batteries at Batteries Plus, for a good price, and plan to drive down Tuesday morning.  There's not much extra room where the batteries are currently mounted, so it will be tight if it works at all.   Regarding the 12v batts, do they increase in housing size as they increase in group number, or would I be able to get 2 Group 31s if the 6v won't fit?

This was helpful in answering my own question! :D
 
The solar panel did a great job charging my sad house batteries yesterday. When I went to bed at 10pm they still read "Good" and were still "Fair" when I got up at 7:30 this morning. Waiting patiently for the sun to clear the giant tree that is blocking it, so we can start charging up today, but it looks like we'll definitely make it until we get new batteries tomorrow!
 
offroad said:
Thanks john. Perfect explanation. Now need to find a page that shows how two 6v batteries from a golf cart are connected and charged for maximum balance. If there are any tricks and tips.  As series connection is used but there should be some good guide somewhere.

This is one way http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/TechologyLibrary/ConnectionsDiagram.aspx

I'm thinking that this site needs three unique threads  added to the Electrical forum. One for each common battery type (FLA, GEL, AGM) and how we use and care for them. 
I'm not sure if I can squeeze that out my self. But I'd like to see it written in two ways, the technical way(Sternwakes, and nothing wrong with that) and the lay mans way. 

John I know that everything you want to have answered in your question is on these forums. Just a little tough sorting through it all that I know :(

Mike R
 

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