Minimal setup for all night warmth

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Panda

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I just upgraded to a Transit from a City Express yesterday because I didn't feel I could safely use my buddy heater without catching either my bed frame or sleeping bag on fire while I'm asleep. I want to get back to Summit County as soon as possible while still keeping a livable environment inside the van, is the absolute minimum I need are...

- Some insulation?
- Vapor barrier
- Propane container?
- Wood flooring to secure the propane container?

Is a roof vent optional? I ordered a rain deflector so I could crack the windows, but I recall having a layer of ice on my windshield every morning in my City Express even with the windows cracked. Please lend me your knowledge and experience.
 
No sane person sleeps all night with a Mr. Buddy heater running....leave it on til the van is warm, turn it off to sleep, turn it back on upon waking in the morning (something you might not have done if you slept with it running all night!) and stay cozy under the covers until it is warm enough to get up and get dressed.
 
Please do NOT run your Mr. Buddy while you are sleeping!

Minimal set up for all  night warmth:

As much insulation as you can put in, skip the vapor barrier - it's vastly overrated by those who haven't camped in a van. Venting is so much more important.

As warm a setup for sleeping as you need. I use a doubled up duvet, flannel sheets are nice but a sleeping liner of fleece goes further for warmth. Some invest is a really good sleeping bag. Mid weight microfleece long thermals and a hooded fleece sweatshirt will get me down in to the teens. A good pair of wool or thermal socks will be needed as well.

Do not ever sleep in the same clothes as you wore during the day. Whether you can feel it or not, there will be moisture in those clothes that will make you cold.

Yes, it's f'g cold waking up in the morning. Light the Mr. Buddy and crawl back in to the warm covers while the van warms up.


The propane tank needs to be secured for when you travel. I use a bungie cord to fasten mine to the grab bar in the passenger foot well. Others use either a cabinet built to fit or a square plastic box like a milk crate bought from H/D.
 
please get a sleeping bag that will keep you warm without any artificial heat source. heaters fail and non-vented ones are dangerous to run while you sleep. highdesertranger
 
Get a chinese diesel parking heater if you want to run a heater all night.

I recommend that you do not run a heater at night. Put the thermostat where you can start it up in the morning without getting out of your covers.
 
I have lived in cold places and being able to stay warm and dry while sleeping is a must. Sleeping bags, covers, wool clothing are all necessary just in case. I still sleep with extra covers/layers at hand in or on my bed. What ever form of heat you use you should design your interior so that you can safely turn it on and warm up the place while still in bed under the covers. Air cookie baking sheets make good heat shields and a small fan circulating air behind them means that as little as 1" of space will make the the temperature go from several hundred degrees on one side to 85 degrees on the other. Bob Wells has made several posts about living through winters in Alaska using propane for heat. Accidents can and will happen with any type of heat but cold can harm you as well just be careful and at least follow or exceed the manufacture's requirements. If you can manage access to a 110 volt plug in, which is what I would do, a small ceramic heater will give plenty of dry heat. I have used extension cords to get power from apartments ( it is well worth the money to help with someone's rent and get power), work. rented parking spaces (with plugins for vehicles block heaters), parking lots lamp posts, restrooms, and fish cleaning stations at boat ramps. Good luck and stay warm!
 
I agree with the idea that a cold weather sleeping bag is a must. With a proper sleeping bag you can safely sleep all night and not worry about frostbite at all, even without a heat source.

It hasn't even begun to get real cold here yet. Last week one night it was 8°F and the temp was down enough that my propane tank didn't have enough pressure to register that there was gas in the tank, so my furnace shut off.

I woke up at about 8am because I had to pee. The first thing I noticed before I even got up was my nose was really cold, but it wasn't really that bad. When I got out of bed it was really cold. I checked the temp and it was 34°F inside the trailer. I took care of business, reset my furnace (it warmed up outside so it turned on right away), and hopped back into my very warm bed. At this point I sleep under a stack of quilt+afghan+quilt.

I have a -30°F sleeping bag. Just having it, even if I don't use it yet, is peace of mind. Don't get me wrong, it's not just for show. I will use it. But for now, having a sleeping/bedding arrangement that keeps me warm, and proper bedding to keep me warm when it's as cold as I know it will get is a must.

Even though I have a furnace, stuff happens. At least I know I've got this covered.

Btw, I've winter camped before, and if you think you won't be able to sleep if it's that cold, it's really quite easy if you have a cold weather sleeping bag, wool socks, a hat with ear flaps, and a good pair of long johns. I have an injury to my wrists so I also use a brace on one and a wool fingerless mittens on the other. It makes a big difference!

Stay warm,
~angie

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk
 
Almost There said:
As much insulation as you can put in, skip the vapor barrier - it's vastly overrated by those who haven't camped in a van. Venting is so much more important.

Yes, it's f'g cold waking up in the morning. Light the Mr. Buddy and crawl back in to the warm covers while the van warms up.

The propane tank needs to be secured for when you travel. I use a bungie cord to fasten mine to the grab bar in the passenger foot well. Others use either a cabinet built to fit or a square plastic box like a milk crate bought from H/D.

Thanks for the milk crate suggestion!

When moisture freezes on the walls then melts, doesn't water end up pooling up underneath? I read modern cars have coating to prevent rust, but I imagine we still wouldn't want a pool of water sitting anywhere on the frame?

If I install a Maxxair on the roof and crack the windows, do you think I can get by without any vapor barrier?
 
Panda said:
When moisture freezes on the walls then melts, doesn't water end up pooling up underneath?
The point is to prevent that from happening in the first place.
 
if i remember correctly i saw a chart that said a 10,000 BTU propane heater puts out 8oz if water/hour
 
Good low temp sleeping bag, polypropylene long-jons, fresh dry socks (change them even if you don't think you need to), insulated headgear, and eat a candy bar (sugar) at bedtime.
 
I have no heater, and no insulation.

I have three sleeping bags, each rated to a different temperature. By switching them out and/or layering them together, I am good down to about zero degrees. But since I am mobile (and since I hate cold weather), if it gets near freezing I tend to move further south where it's warmer.

I crack the windows for ventilation, which prevents condensation. Yes, that allows cold air inside. That is the price you pay.
 
"burning a gallon of propane produces about a gallon of water (in vapor)"

impossible

highdesertranger
 
^^As a comparison, the typical human exhales about 1 pint (2 cups) of water each night while they sleep. (About equal to a 16 ounce coke bottle.)
 
You could also do what I did and buy a used old style convective propane RV furnace (usually from aa wrecker, but I got my current 1 via Craigslist) and not have to worry about H2O, venting, oxygen depletion, CO, and power usage. ..Willy.
 
For those who have the vented diesel heaters like Webasto--those use electric fans for ventilation, don't they? How much juice do they typically use?
 
Using any non-ventilated combustion system inside an enclosed area is a very bad idea, here’s why…  The chemistry involved in the combustion process is the same for any hydrocarbon fuel, it uses oxygen and gives off light/heat, water, carbon dioxide (CO2), and carbon monoxide (CO).  It’s the same for natural gas, LPG, coal, gasoline, diesel, etc.   CO is created by incomplete combustion, when oxygen is lower than needed for complete combustion.  CO molecules attach to your blood hemoglobin and occupy the space that’s usually reserved to carry oxygen.  With CO your blood loses the ability to carry oxygen, so you pass out and die.  Even if someone finds you passed out from CO poisoning and administers pure oxygen, you still might not recover because it takes hours to get CO out of your system.  Even pure oxygen won’t attach to the blood cells so you die of suffocation from the inside.

So in a closed space (no ventilation) using up all the oxygen can kill you.  As the oxygen is depleted CO rapidly increases and can kill you.  In addition, too much CO2 concentration can kill you because it displaces oxygen (CO2 also is heavier than oxygen so it starts collecting from the floor up).   In order of efficiency, LPG non-vented open flame heaters are least efficient and give off the most CO.  Non-vented catalytic heaters are more efficient and give off less CO.   Vented heaters use outside oxygen and exhaust all byproducts to the outside, and zero CO to the living area.

Here are the facts according to a Consumer Product Safety Commission study published November 2017.  64 deaths were attributed to heating systems, and an additional 7 deaths involved heating with some additional factor (engines, stoves, etc.).   39 of those deaths involved use of LPG.  "12 occurred in a non-fixed location domicile (e.g., camper trailers or boats used as homes) used as a permanent home, or a structure not designed for habitation used as a home (e.g., sea-land shipping container, metal shed). Additionally, an estimated 22 deaths occurred in tents, camper trailers, and other temporary shelters."   78% of deaths, victims were alone at the time.  The majority of deaths "...occurred during the 4 cold months of  November, December, January, and February."   “In the 3 most recent years… (2012–2014), adults 45 years and older comprised about two-thirds (an annual average of 66 percent) of all non-fire, consumer product-related CO deaths, although this age group makes up only about 39 percent of the U.S. population.”  

Consider that's 34 deaths using LPG for heating, during the cold months, of people who were alone at the time, in circumstances similar to van dwellers.  The highest risk factors are: LPG used for heating, in a domicile not originally designed as housing, during cold weather, alone at the time, in a camper/tent, and over 45yrs…  Some might say 34 deaths per a year in comparison to the 325.7 million people in the U.S. is a very small percentage, hence a small risk.  Some might even point out that 34 deaths from LPG heaters are significantly less than the 51 (avg.) annual deaths by lightning strikes, but most of us wouldn’t be caught standing in an open field during a lightning storm, so why are we going to stand for a risk of death by CO poisoning.  They are both known risks, just one is more understood.  Also, consider the CPSC report only speaks to actual deaths from LPG heating, it doesn’t mention all the other people who were sickened but escaped death.

Here’s the point… even the most efficient catalytic heater makes CO and has risk.  When they advertise non-vented heater, they are referring to the mechanical structure of the equipment, there is no obvious exhaust vent on the machine.  The living area still requires some air exchange.  Any combustion heaters inside an enclosed living area requires cross-flow ventilation (cracked windows, open roof vent, etc.).  If we understand the chemistry of combustion and accept there is real risk of death (or illness), then that death is preventable.  Predictable is preventable.

An interesting side note from that same report; an even bigger risk is portable generators: "Since 2004, portable generators have been associated with an estimated 696 non-fire CO poisoning fatalities, more than any other consumer product under CPSC ’s jurisdiction."

Please be informed and stay safe!
 
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