Where do shotguns fit into the picture?

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Guys, guys, guys . . .

Clearly, Flying Kurbmaster is too smart for us.  He's seen through all of our lies and prevarications.  We might as well confess the truth to him.

FK, you're right.  Personally owned guns are completely worthless for self defense.  There's never been a single case of anybody successfully defending himself with a gun against people, let alone against bears, wolves, or mountain lions.

The simple truth is, us Real Americans hang on to our guns so when the left FINALLY launches their revolution, we can shoot them.

But don't you worry, FK.  You're a member of the TRIBE, and when the counter-revolution is inevitably successful, we're going to look out for you.

We won't stand you up against a wall and put you down like a rabid dog.

We're planning on having Re-Education camps in Death Valley and Nome.  I figure 5, maybe 6 years tops living in one of their pup tents will have you thinking like a Real American!

And I can make that promise cause I'm actually a Senior Field Marshall in the Real American Secret Underground Army!  But don't tell anybody!

 

[flying kurbmaster]

REAL Americans??? OP Your secret is safe with me, but if it's ok with you, could I stand against the wall instead of putting me on the train to Nome or Death Valley, some of my relatives have been on that train ride not that they ever talked about it but I heard rumors that the scenery was not that great, the accommodations, the hospitality and the showers really sucked.

 

[akrvbob]

REAL Americans???     OP  Your secret is safe with me, but if it's ok with you, could I stand against the wall instead of putting me on the train to Nome or Death Valley, some of my relatives have been on that train ride not that they ever talked about it but I heard rumors that the scenery was not that great, the accommodations, the hospitality and the showers really sucked.

You gotta wander for those few that survived the ride, if they also are so vehemently anti-gun. It seems like that may have been a better choice than the ride. Many of the relatives of those on the ride decided guns weren't so bad and they are the best armed and best trained humans on the planet--after us that is. But what do they know, they seem bound and determined to resist the next ride. Fools!! Its so obvious the ride is better. 
Bob

 

[highdesertranger]

not to mention that the Nazis confiscated all private firearms. so resistance was nonexistence. at least for those who complied with turning in their guns. the funny thing about gun confiscation is only law abiding citizens comply. highdesertranger

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

also be ready to spend between 1 to 50 years in jail for involuntary manslaughter/homicide depending if anyone dies , if the kids, or anyone else gets their hands on it and start playing shoot them up games. Did you know that Japan had ONE incident of death by firearms last year, and eight crimes were committed with the use of firearms,,, of course Japan is much smaller then the US with only 127 million people. if it was as big as the US 318 million, it's death by firearms would be much closer to the US numbers, like 200% closer which is almost THREE, to the US's 33,000  deaths by firearms, however it would still fall short by 32,997 lives....Just saying if you do the math, firearms don't seem to be working ... there are roughly one death per year from Bears in the US and that includes Alaska.

Two thirds of the 32k deaths you are quoting are suicides in the US.  Japan has roughly 25k suicides a year, accounting for the population difference that's about 2.5x as high as the US.   Eliminating guns wouldn't stop people from committing suicide.  The only reason Japan doesn't have guns is because we didn't let them after WWII.

 

[TrainChaser]

Van-Tramp, thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply. Safety is primary with me. I've traveled quite a few miles, and nothing bad has happened. I've been scared a few times, but nothing that leaving the area couldn't fix. Yes, I planned on getting some professional training.

Flying Kurbmaster is funny, riding one of those hobby-horses that endeavors to prevent non-existent problems in the law-abiding public, make the world safe for everybody (not possible), and force everyone in line with his/her thinking. Here's the Bottom Line, sweetie: If you don't want a gun, don't get one. That's it.

 

[Gunny]

Van-Tramp covered things very well, I will just add that you need to practice using it in the environment you will be in. Not firing it, but the movements you would need to get it aimed at the likely entrance of a bad guy. Do this where no one sees you lest they think you are nuts and call the local constabulary. I prefer semi-automatics simply because I had a pump jam on me (it was my fault but still jammed) and the semi takes the guesswork out.

Buy the best you can afford and get one that "Feels right" in your hands. I have a Benelli M2 Tactical and am well pleased with it.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Lets not forget that gun ownership in this country has increased 10-fold in the past 3 decades, all while gun deaths have been cut in half. It's the one stat that anti-gunners can not refute. More guns HAS equaled less gun deaths in the US and no amount of scare tactics can prove it wrong.

nice twist but that is not exactly how it is, there are more guns but substantially less people own them, it peaked in the mid 90's at 53% of households, today it sits below 36% and decreasing,

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

While the 12 gauge shotgun is the traditional combat shotgun - and if you're talking about bears or big cats, the only one I would consider - the 20 gauge is a lot lighter and a lot easier and more comfortable to shoot.  Which means you'll be more likely to PRACTICE regularly with it.  And 20 gauge slugs are every bit as deadly an anti-personnel round as the bigger 12s.

Hell, even the little .410 gauge rifled slug is more powerful than the .44 magnum handgun round, and nobody ever accused IT of being underpowered.

 

[LeeRevell]

After forty years of hunting and four years in the Navy using 12 gauge shotguns, my preference is the venerable Remington 870 pump. I have a Winchester 140p semiauto, and it has occasionally failed. Semis are prone to getting dirty, and are more complex.
I can strip and reassemble the 870 in total darkness. Parts are easily available, as are a huge number of accessories.
Small wonder I have three 870s. Two 12 gauge and a 16 gauge. One is a shorter defense style for ease of use in a mobile home and vehicle. I know it and trust it.

 

[wayne49]

While the 12 gauge shotgun is the traditional combat shotgun - and if you're talking about bears or big cats, the only one I would consider - the 20 gauge is a lot lighter and a lot easier and more comfortable to shoot.  Which means you'll be more likely to PRACTICE regularly with it.  And 20 gauge slugs are every bit as deadly an anti-personnel round as the bigger 12s.

Hell, even the little .410 gauge rifled slug is more powerful than the .44 magnum handgun round, and nobody ever accused IT of being underpowered.

There are "reduced recoil" buck and slug loads for 12ga that make the 12ga "comfortable" to shoot. The velocity range is 1150-1200 fps at 3'.

Since personal defense is firing over very short distances the loads should not need higher velocity.

I have been training with these rounds. They also reduce the time to bring the weapon back on target between shots.

Fiocchi LR Exacta Aero Slugs (1150 fps) and Rio Royal Low Recoil Slug (1200 fps) are two examples of slugs.

However you choose to protect yourself, practice, practice, and more practice. Muscle memory.

 

[USExplorer]

With a shotgun, you can aim in the general direction if you really need to shoot.  

Please do not spread this bit of misinformation. While it is true that shotguns are not sighted and aimed like a rifle or handgun, proper placement on the shoulder is crucial to be able to hit what you are aiming at. I have missed a man-sized target with double ought buckshot at 10 yards in a stress-free situation because I was not paying attention to proper shouldering techniques. Shooting from the hip, under the arm, or with a pistol grip will only increase your chances of missing. Shooting in a high-stress situation or in close quarters will further increase the chance of missing. Just like with playing pool, we've all messed up on an easy shot at one time or another. The same thing will happen with a shotgun. With lots of practice, you will get a feel for it, much like a typist gets a feel for a keyboard and can type without even looking at the keys. That typist also knows when he makes a mistake and hits the wrong key, without even looking at the screen.

The bead on a shotgun is a guide, not a sight. Mine has no bead. When I teach beginners to shoot I tell them to line up the front of the barrel slightly below the target. After a few shots, they begin to develop eye-hand coordination and start to hit targets with both eyes open and focused on the targets.

The best way to practice is to buy two boxes of clay targets. Have a friend place a pigeon downrange while you are not looking, then practice rotating around, bringing your shotgun up, and hitting the target within 1.5 seconds. Break up your routine; use pieces of plywood or a vehicle as cover, and dive in and out of cover, taking shots at the clays. Shoot from your weak hand, shoot prone and kneeling. You will find out how to quickly shoulder it without bashing the stock against your face or your shoulder, and how to hold it in the ready position. Once the first box of targets is finished, learn to lead a moving target by shooting at gently thrown clays.

Slugs require a modified technique compared to buck or birdshot. If you plan to shoot slugs long-range, ghost ring sights are a good addition. Otherwise, lining up a pair of imaginary sights on top of your barrel should work. Foster (rifled) slugs will lose about half their energy in 50 yards, so be well aware of their limitations.

If you are unwilling to train in defensive use of a firearm, leave it locked up and hidden when not in use, to prevent it from being used against you.

 

[TrainChaser]

USExplorer, I expect to get some training with the shotgun. When I said that a person could aim in the general direction if you really need to shoot, I meant relative to a handgun or rifle. If someone/something is out of shotgun range, he/it probably isn't a major threat. I think. Could be wrong...

 

[highdesertranger]

depends if they are shooting back. highdesertranger

 

[ArtW]

Buckshot is effective at most any range a pistol is, though it gets harder to hit with as the shot spreads (try shooting at a 'silhouette' target at longer range, and you'll see the problem instantly) and slugs will work well out to 100 yards or so
Of course, with slugs, you're effectively no longer using a shotgun, but a large caliber, low velocity rifle with bad sights that kicks like a mule
Still outdoes a pistol though
If you have a threat with a rifle, only a rifle will be effective for self defense in that situation

 

[TrainChaser]

ArtW: "If you have a threat with a rifle, only a rifle will be effective for self defense in that situation."

Sort of like "don't take a knife to a gun fight", huh?

 

[highdesertranger]

on my pump shotgun I carry both a hunting barrel and a rifled slug barrel with adjustable iron sights. I also carry the plug to limit the number of rounds in the magazine. highdesertranger

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

While the 12 gauge shotgun is the traditional combat shotgun - and if you're talking about bears or big cats, the only one I would consider - the 20 gauge is a lot lighter and a lot easier and more comfortable to shoot.  Which means you'll be more likely to PRACTICE regularly with it.  And 20 gauge slugs are every bit as deadly an anti-personnel round as the bigger 12s.

Hell, even the little .410 gauge rifled slug is more powerful than the .44 magnum handgun round, and nobody ever accused IT of being underpowered.

I think the .410 is one of the most underrated guns of all time.  They are really versatile little machines.  If I could only have one gun i'd go with an over under .410/.22 combo.  Always wanted to get my hands on a Savage model 24.