What is a basic entry level generator and battery system?

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Jasoncbus1

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I want to run the generator in the evening to watch a little TV while I charge a battery for a small fan at night? I guess once again I'm a little lost hehe. 
   So I need a generator, a deep cycle battery?, an inverter?, uh what else? A charge controller? I am a noob.
I don't think I want to do solar but maybe I do? Haha, soooo lost
 
Step one.

Make a list of what you are wanting to power.





Running a generator to charge up a battery is not the best way to do it.
 
I would go with a 12v TV and solar panels. I just did the math for someone and it would take about 1 year for the panels to pay for themselves, after that the electricity is free. Got Smart is correct.
1. add up all your power needs.
2. size you battery capacity according to step 1.
3. size your panels according to the chosen battery bank.
highdesertranger
 
A) Make sure everything you plan to run is 12v so you don't need an inverter.

B) 100+ amp hour deep cycle battery

C) Charge while driving, via isolator, solenoid, ciggy lighter, etc. ( I have been charging while driving ONLY for the last 2 years, and have never run out of power. )

D) If charging while driving isn't enough, add a home made 12v DC generator to the mix, basically a gas engine connected to a car alternator. With used parts, mine cost under $20 to build. In my opinion one of these is a MUST HAVE for any full timer. It will not only charge your house battery, it will also charge your starting battery. Add an inverter, and it will power anything an AC generator can power. ( Prior to charging while driving, I used my generator like this to charge my house battery. 20-30 minutes once a week was all it took to keep my house battery charged. A gallon of gas would last for months. )

As far as I'm concerned, solar panels will NEVER pay for themselves, unless the total cost of a system comes way way down to like under $100 for a complete 500 watt system. Until then it is the most expensive power available.
 
Off Grid 24/7 said:
As far as I'm concerned, solar panels will NEVER pay for themselves, unless the total cost of a system comes way way down to like under $100 for a complete 500 watt system.    Until then it is the most expensive power available.

I completely disagree.

Everyone's use differs, and I for one do not have the room for a home rigged generator system.  

Solar is clean, quiet, and dependable.  I have sat in the desert for two weeks using power every day and never had to use a drop of gasoline.  If I had a water and food source, I can stay forever with my solar.

I have never seen a generator that would (in 20 minutes) charge a battery completely.  Or a battery that would be charged in 20 minutes by any power source.  Tesla still takes a couple hours with their on grid ports.
 
GotSmart said:
I completely disagree.

Everyone's use differs, and I for one do not have the room for a home rigged generator system.  

Solar is clean, quiet, and dependable.  I have sat in the desert for two weeks using power every day and never had to use a drop of gasoline.  If I had a water and food source, I can stay forever with my solar.

I have never seen a generator that would (in 20 minutes) charge a battery completely.  Or a battery that would be charged in 20 minutes by any power source.  Tesla still takes a couple hours with their on grid ports.

Of course you disagree, you're trying to make money selling solar systems.

When I was using just my generator, 5 gallons of gas would last me almost 2 years.  Even at $4.00 a gallon, that comes out to about $10/yr to run my generator.  Now that I'm charging while driving, the cost is even less.

According to some, that isn't long enough to fully charge a battery...  After 20-30 mins, the ammeter would read near zero.  Was the battery FULLY charged?  I don't know, nor do I care.  I'm starting year 7 on a $20 junkyard battery, and have never ran out of power a single time, so it can't be all that bad.

So let's compare costs...

My  generator cost me under $20 to build, but let's adjust it for inflation and say it will cost $100 for easy figuring.

For the sake of fairness, we will each use a $20 junkyard battery.

So I've got $120 invested up front, and it will cost me ~ $10/yr to run my generator if that's all I'm using, and not charging while driving at all.

Okay, you've got 200 watts of solar panels @ $200+, plus a controller and other misc @ $100+, plus a $20 junkyard battery.  So you have at least $320 invested up front, and probably much more.

So provided nothing in your system breaks down for the next 20 years, it would take you at least 20 years to pay for your system, because at a cost of $10/yr to run my generator, that's how long it would take me to pay out as much as your system cost up front. (AND... I fudged the numbers in your favor big time!)

I wouldn't be caught dead without my generator, and that includes if I had solar panels, which I don't, and you better believe I'd make room for it one way or another.  Since charging while driving I haven't needed my  generator, but I would still never part with it.

My generator is also portable and requires no modifications to my van.
 
I also disagree, a car alternator will not recharge a battery in 20 minutes, it's fantasy to believe this. I am sorry but this just isn't true. a battery taken down to 60 or 70% of it's rated capacity would take hours to recover to 100% off of a car alternator. I know my aux batteries are connected to my alternator, if I am down to 70% it takes at least 7 hours of driving to get the batts back up to 100%. I would like to see some real world test to back up these claims of 20 minutes. highdesertranger
 
highdesertranger said:
I also disagree,  a car alternator will not recharge a battery in 20 minutes,  it's fantasy to believe this.  I am sorry but this just isn't true.  a battery taken down to 60 or 70% of it's rated capacity would take hours to recover to 100% off of a car alternator.  I know my aux batteries are connected to my alternator,  if I am down to 70% it takes at least 7 hours of driving to get the batts back up to 100%.  I would like to see some real world test to back up these claims of 20 minutes.  highdesertranger

You claim that battery was not getting recharged to 100% in 20-30 minutes...  You COULD be right...  My indication of a fully charged battery was when the ammeter read at or near zero.  It IS certainly possible that it was not recharged to 100%.

The difference is that I could care less.  I care whether I have power, and if I have power and an el cheapo house battery will last at least 5 years, then I'm happy.  So far my house batteries have always lasted at least 5 years, which is why I expect at least that.  Am I abusing my batteries?  Maybe I am...  Maybe I could get 10 years out of that $20 battery if I treated it like you say I should.

I don't live in a perfect world, but my system works perfectly well for me, and that's all I care about.

Now when I was using an AC generator with a regular battery charger, that DID take 7-8 hours to charge my battery.  But the difference between a 10 amp battery charger, and a 140 amp alternator is considerable.
 
Off Grid is giving some dreamworld advice, as usual. Makes me wonder if he is sitting cozy in a house and never saw a day of van life??
Where does he come up with this BS??

You can bet that if that charging method was that damned efficient (and correct) we would be flocking to use it.

Back to the real world...Solar is a good investment, good for the environment, and works very well.

If you only plan to watch a little(12 volt) TV and power a small fan, you only need a very basic solar setup.
A 100 watt Renogy panel, inexpensive charge controller, and a Walmart deep cycle (marine) battery to get started. That puts you in the game for $300, including a 6 pack of beer.
If your needs increase, you can easily expand on this system later. It's a good system to learn with and cheaper than a generator/gas, and its passive.

I will add that if you plan to be where its cloudy a lot or you wanna live in deep forest, a generator might better suit your needs.
 
Offgrid, what are you running off that junkyard battery? If it's just a few LED lights and a cell phone it's possible you just are not drawing as much power as everyone is assuming you are. I still doubt you are fully charging your battery, but if you get acceptable life from it, who cares?

It's also possible his junkyard battery is so worn out it doesn't take long to charge because it doesn't hold more than a few amp hours of power.
 
A Lead Acid battery can only be fully 100% charged so fast.

From 50% the quickest possible time to truly full is 4.5 to 6 hours on a healthy battery.

There is no way around this.

Now one can get high amperage into a depleted battery, upto about 80% charged, but from that point it takes basically 4 hours, no Matter how big and capable the charging source.

When a high amp charging source gets the battery to 80% in X amount of time, and When the charging source then hold/maintains mid 14's absorption voltage
Hour 1 will get the battery to ~90% from 80%
Hour 2 will get the battery to ~95%
Hour 3 will get the battery  ~98.75%
Just shy of 4 hours after a high amp charging source got the battery to 80%, 100% is finally achieved.

And that is with a healthy, quality battery.  Old abused sulfated batteries can take significantly longer to get anywhere near 100% of their remaining capacity.  their resistance is so high they can only accept tiny currents at absorption voltages and the constant voltage, absorption stage takes a ridiculously long time.
  There is no way around this, Not with lead acid batteries

100% full is determined with a hydrometer, that is the only way it is determinable.
When amps at absorption voltage taper to 2-3% of capacity, 2 to 3 amps for a 100Ah battery at absorption voltage, compensated for battery temperature, then one should check the specific gravity and see if it is 1.275+, compensated for electrolyte temperature.

AGM batteries, when amps at absorption voltage taper to 0.5% of capacity, 0.5 amps for 100Ah battery, then one can consider it fully charged.

Battery Voltage, after removing a charging source especially from a high amp charging source, means NOTHING for at least 6 hours, preferable 24.  Surface charge will have the voltage up in the 13's for hours if there are no loads or real light loads.  Voltage is ONLY accurate at indicating battery state of charge on a well rested battery.  If cool with Zero loads on it, surface voltage on a healthy quality battery can remain for a week or longer.

Surface charge fools people into thinking the alternator is a magical charging source that can quickly recharge a battery.  It can recharge quickly, upto 80%. 
 that last 20% takes HOURS. 
 no matter what. 
 Fact.

Solar has those hours, unless one insists on parking in the shade.
 
Off Grid 24/7 said:
Of course you disagree, you're trying to make money selling solar systems.

When I was using just my generator, 5 gallons of gas would last me almost 2 years.  Even at $4.00 a gallon, that comes out to about $10/yr to run my generator.  Now that I'm charging while driving, the cost is even less.

According to some, that isn't long enough to fully charge a battery...  After 20-30 mins, the ammeter would read near zero.  Was the battery FULLY charged?  I don't know, nor do I care.  I'm starting year 7 on a $20 junkyard battery, and have never ran out of power a single time, so it can't be all that bad.

So let's compare costs...

My  generator cost me under $20 to build, but let's adjust it for inflation and say it will cost $100 for easy figuring.

For the sake of fairness, we will each use a $20 junkyard battery.

So I've got $120 invested up front, and it will cost me ~ $10/yr to run my generator if that's all I'm using, and not charging while driving at all.

Okay, you've got 200 watts of solar panels @ $200+, plus a controller and other misc @ $100+, plus a $20 junkyard battery.  So you have at least $320 invested up front, and probably much more.

So provided nothing in your system breaks down for the next 20 years, it would take you at least 20 years to pay for your system, because at a cost of $10/yr to run my generator, that's how long it would take me to pay out as much as your system cost up front. (AND... I fudged the numbers in your favor big time!)

I wouldn't be caught dead without my generator, and that includes if I had solar panels, which I don't, and you better believe I'd make room for it one way or another.  Since charging while driving I haven't needed my  generator, but I would still never part with it.

My generator is also portable and requires no modifications to my van.

I give the members advice, and have not sold one system here.  The closest I have come is to give them some electrical parts from my personal box at cost to save a trip to town.  I loan my tools (and give my help) freely.  Just ask anyone that was at RTR. 

I have 200W panels, 448 AH of battery, and quality components at a cost of $700 over 2 years,  That is less than $1 a day. The system is designed to not break down.  It holds its value and looks nice!   :p  

I run lights, Roadpro oven, CPAP, computer and phone, fan, charge my tools, and anything anyone else needs to charge up.  I can drop a freezer in the system with no problem.   :cool:

Some times you need to spend $1 to do things properly.
 
I believe that if you use a smaller amount of power and drive daily that you could live off the alternator. We have had to turn the truck around and use the jumper cables to keep the battery up enough to run the furnace. A hour a night and the voltage never went below 12.3v. That 12v marine battery is now 5 years old and still going strong.

We used a generator for a year, not too bad. Start it up, plug it in and watch TV, cook breakfast and get ready while it made noise. The do anything, anywhere at any time power is a nice thing about a generator. Noise, smell, gas, well everything has a downside too.

Now I know my systems are not relevant here due to size and what we do with them. My first system however was a $50 230w panel from craigslaist, a $33 pair of 25 foot MC4 cables and a $100 MPPT charge controller from ebay. The day we plugged that system in was the day the generator became our back up. That was four years ago and I will set the very same system out in the sun in a hour to keep the voltage up on the lifelines.

All in all people need to remember that 4+5=9 just as 6+3 does.
 
Here is a graph I made charging my old flooded battery with a 40 amp  adjustable voltage power supply.  The battery had about 350 deep cycles on it at the time, and wound up lasting nearly  500 deep cycles before I removed it from service in my Van. It remaining capacity is Now about 55AH total, and I still cycle it in my workshop, and it works 'just fine' powering my TV fans and lights for 35 amp hours worth of total consumption, and it would also work 'just fine', in my van, as long as i do not take more than 35Ah from it.  But considering the battery claimed to have 130AH when new, 55Ah remaining cannot be considered healthy.  I am surprised it has not shorted a cell yet.


In this test, The "130AH" battery was 44AH from Full at the beginning of the test. So it was well over 50% charged

It took 40 amps constantly for 35 minutes before battery voltage hit 14.7v.
From 0 to 35 minutes the charger was in constant current mode outputting everything it could.
A higher amp charging source, such as a powerful well wired alternator spinning fast enough, would have reduced the length of this 35 minutes' flat line'.  It would not affect recharge rate at all once absorption voltage is reached.  Once absorption voltage is reached, the battery dictates how many amps are required to maintain absorption voltage, and these continuously taper downward as the battery climbs above 80% charged.

20141002_215022copy_zpseaa22db2.jpg


Once the battery reaches absorption voltage, the amperage required to maintain absorption voltage, decreases, thus the downslope on the remaining 2.5 hours on the graph.

At the 3 hour mark , my battery monitor said the battery was 2Ah from full, but this particular battery was very inefficient in these ranges

Amps at 14.7 had tapered to 3.7 amps after 3 hours.  I ended the test here as it was 3 in the morning, but another hour or 2 would have been required before Specific gravity would have maxed out as amperage continued to taper downward, but going no lower than 1.5 amps on this particular battery.  Much of that 1.5 amps was turned to heat, as this flooded battery was not healthy at this point.

So basically the battery cannot be charged any faster once it reaches absorption voltage.  That Amp taper to 100% full will always be in the 3+ hour range no matter what, even if one just got done polishing their chromed alternator while whispering lovingly to it.

On An abused , more sulfated battery this amp taper would be be steeper initially, and the flat line constant current stage much shorter.  The taper to 2 to 3% of capacity would take significantly longer too 

 Since a vehicle's voltage regulator would Likely NOT HOLD 14.7v if it even goes that high in the first place, the time to full if 13.6v were the maximum voltage allowed, then 100% full would take 12 hours or more of running the engine.

I am in the process of installing an adjustable voltage regulator on my 89 Dodge whose original voltage regulator is in the engine computer, as It chooses 14.9 or 13.7 with no nod toward logic at all.  14.9v is too high for my AGM battery when it is depleted and can suck high amperages still, and 13.7v max allowed when the battery is depleted significantly slows recharging as it is less electrical pressure between source( alternator) and load( battery).

14.9v held when the battery is already full is abusive.

Any lead acid battery will behave similarly to the battery in this test.

The battery can only be recharged so quickly, that flat line of constant current is the only area where reduction in charge times can be accomplished.

Had I a 50 amp charging source, that flat line of constant current would have been about 5 to 10 minutes shorter.  The amp taper, nearly exactly the same.  Hours to a full recharge.

A flooded deep cycle  battery will always require 'some' current to be held at absorption voltage. A 100Ah battery will likely require 0.8 amps or more to be held at 14.7v even if bursting full with 1.275+ specific gravity measured across all cells.
 If an Ammeter reads zero on such a battery, the ammeter is inaccurate.

A healthy battery requires less amperage to be held at absorption voltage when fully charged, compared to a older battery which is sulfated.

Note  that AGM batteries can taper to sub 0.05amps to maintain absorption voltage when fully charged.

Maintenance free flooded batteries also exhibit this behavior of needing little amperage to be held at absorption voltage when fully charged.  These are starting batteries with more calcium in the plates and should not be utilized in deep cycle service.  If they are cycled deeply, absorption voltage should be 15 volts at 77f and Absorption voltage should be held until amps taper to nearly nothing.  These maintenance free flooded batteries do much poorer than 'regular' starting batteries when inadvertently deeply cycled.  Both want to be returned to 100% ASAP, but the maintenance free flooded battery needs higher voltage held longer for 100% to be achieved.  If 100% is not achieved then the doomsday clock starts ticking much faster for it, so it is way more important to NOT RELY on the alternator to top off these maintenance free flooded batteries, as it takes too much time and requires too high a voltage.

The best way to top it off is with a plug in charging source capable of 15 volts, or a solar controller whose output can be raised to 15 volts and held there until amps into the battery taper to nearly nothing.

Now,  If the battery were a LiFepo4 depleted the same amount and of the same overall capacity, then the flat line of constant current would be much longer, and the tapering stage once absorption/max voltage is attained, would be very steep, right at the end of the significantly shorter charge cycle.

It seems most of the general public believes a Lead acid battery can be recharged as quickly as LifePo4, but it is not to be.

The 80 to 100% charged range is Always going to take hours, no matter what, on a Lead acid battery  A higher amp charging source can only decrease the'flat line' times of constant/bulk current. 

If the Lead acid battery is regularly  cycled deeper than 80% state of charge does not regularly get to 100% charged, the faster its capacity will degrade.  the deeper the  discharge cycle, the more important it is that a true 100% recharge is attained, ASAP, if one cares to get excellent service from their battery.

But poor fair good and excellent are subjective to the user, and internet claims as to MPG or battery longevity with no verifiable Data with accurate tools to back up such claims, are completely worthless and serve only to confuse a Newbie hoping to learn,  Well that and self stroke one's likely overinflated undeserved ego.
 
"self stroke one's likely overinflated undeserved ego" hey,i resemble that remark :angel:

if you are just going to run a small 12v tv and fan and drive for at least an hour it will work,will kill your your battery pretty quick. adding any solar will reap good benefits,keep things 12v makes things easier

my real world experience is living in a wooden teepee and pulling the car battery out to use a 13 inch b&w tv and light
i liked tv and light more then the battery
 
If you use power all day long, (as in refrigerator), Solar probably offers something, as you are making power as you are using it. Say the fridge uses 10 amps and your solar is contributing 5 amps. Your battery is only being taxed at a rate of 5 amps, and that is when the compressor is running. When the motor cycles off, that 5 amps can be putting back some if not all of the batteries charge. If you have no solar, your battery is losing 10 amps whenever the compressor runs, and don't play catchup until the end of the day.

This being said, for many who don't use a lot of power all day, Solar may not be worth the investment. For one thing they don't have to park in the hot sun during the summer. If a $100 battery lasts 4 or 5 years, No Big Deal. We all like black and white cut and dried. The world is mostly grey. There is a saying, Keep doing what you are doing and you will keep getting what you have been getting. This being the case, if you are happy, you don't need to change a thing. If you are not happy, then you need to do something different.

Being a part timer, I think my best value is the generator. It gives me the capacity to run an air conditioner if desired. I may add solar, but it will not be a priority. I also find that being older I don't use as much energy, (in more ways than one, go to bed early).
 
Off Grid 24/7 said:
A) Make sure everything you plan to run is 12v so you don't need an inverter.

B) 100+ amp hour deep cycle battery

C) Charge while driving, via isolator, solenoid,  ciggy lighter, etc. ( I have been charging while driving ONLY for the last 2 years, and have never run out of power. )

D) If charging while driving isn't enough, add a home made 12v DC generator to the mix, basically a gas engine connected to a car alternator.  With used parts, mine cost under $20 to build.  In my opinion one of these is a MUST HAVE for any full timer.  It will not only charge your house battery, it will also charge your starting battery.  Add an inverter, and it will power anything an AC generator can power. ( Prior to charging while driving, I used my generator like this to charge my house battery.  20-30 minutes once a week was all it took to keep my house battery charged.  A gallon of gas would last for months. )

As far as I'm concerned, solar panels will NEVER pay for themselves, unless the total cost of a system comes way way down to like under $100 for a complete 500 watt system.    Until then it is the most expensive power available.

I think it would come down to how often would you have to buy new batteries because they 
went bad after 3 years from not charging them enough.
In ten years $300 in batteries vs whatever solor would cost you in ten years.
 
Investing in solar is the best thing I ever did and everyone I know says the same thing. There are some exceptions, but very few. 7 months of the year in the PNW it has limited value. Easy solution to that, go somewhere that doesn't have terrible weather 7 months a year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you stealth in the city, you're still better off with solar because you can rarely run it there.
 
Jasoncbus1 said:
I want to run the generator in the evening to watch a little TV while I charge a battery for a small fan at night?

Generators are smelly, often noisy, you have to store them, you have to put them outside to use, etc, etc.   That list will tell you something of my attitude to them.   You say "the generator" so I make a couple of assumptions based on that.

I suggest you start with solar.   TV and a small fan says you don't need a huge battery for that small load.   Another thread discusses small, minimum, easy to install systems.   Any house battery charged from solar and/or the vehicle alternator will do away with the need for a generator.

Payback times for solar can depend on perspective.   I am self contained and free camp 99.999999999% of the time.   Not paying camp ground fees paid off my panels in such a short time.   Running a generator often interferes with any Stealth efforts.
 
We stopped carrying out big generator after the first season with solar. It's brand new except for the exercising, all shiny with remote start and everything. We just never used it and I'm not taking it with me either. I did get a tiny inverter generator as a emergency back up that again will likely never be needed. It would take a week of the panels covered in snow to need it and in that case the snow will blow off as I exit the area long before I need the generator.
 
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