We need to start a movement to legalize the nomadic lifestyle

[RoadStar66]

I am afraid this will be another thread the goes down the politics hole.  I won't be participating.

I didn't realize it was illegal to be a nomad.

It is becoming illegal. And it is being done through politics. And if we "nomadics"don't become "Political", it will be.

 

[RoadStar66]

that statement is off in so many ways.

can you quote me a statute that makes being a nomad illegal? there are not that many jurisdictions that have laws on the books that make sleeping in your car over night illegal, so long as you are legally parked. i personally have never traveled though one that does. 

no law you can get passed will be able to force a private business owner to let you live or even sleep in their parking lot.

there are millions of miles of public road with curbside parking for up to 72 hours. if the parking is not restricted and you are legally parked on a public road AND there are no statutes making sleeping in your car a crime, then you are not breaking the law. of course making a wise choice in where you park will decrease the chance someone will hassle you. ouside the big city there are uncountable numbers of places to stay the night, or even a few. 

to say the only place is in a few parking lots is way off

when lots of van dwellers get concentrated in store parking lots, it easily becomes a problem, an eyesore. 

many of the parking lots that have been shut down, are because groups that represent the RV park industry wants the RV people to spend money to overnight in their parks and dont like walmart and others "stealing their business" these groups go to the local government   and complain that said store is "operating an RV park" with out proper permits and licenses. we cant expect the local government to pick and choose who has to follow the law and who gets to break it.

if we want less regulation from the government, we as a whole group need to stop giving them reasons to do so. i dont see that happening. to many entitled people out there will continue to abuse lax enforcement until the powers that be crack down

there is even a recent (last couple years) move of over turning laws restricting sleeping in your car. some southern california areas that had tried to outright ban sleeping in your car have started providing areas where it is legal.

Your last comment regarding socal areas where it's legal to park overnight. That's the "Safe Parking" program. And you have to apply and be accepted into the program. And there are strictly enforced rules. And many areas are not covered. Probably because local opposition is too strong.

Areas near vacation areas don't want people not paying the entry fees for campgrounds. Only the federal guarantee that you can camp on federal land for 14 days allows it. And I have felt that locals in vacation areas where motels suffer from low vacancy hate that law. And we not have a POTUS who would do away with it and put federal land on the block in a heartbeat if he could.

 

[RoadStar66]

nomadic lifestyle is not illegal at all so you are out of joint on that one to start

I get ya wanting more private property and city/county/state lands to allow parking overnight or long term for car/van/rv/vehicle type dwellers but it loads into a lot about safety, resources, original zoning laws and more.

I get what you are saying, just you won't win with a movement saying 'accept ALL vehicle dwellers of any kind' on any property situations they want to live their lives as they see fit' just will never go down.

I also don't think nomad is associated with pure criminal activity at all...so...

I didn't say all nomads are criminal. To the contrary, I said the bad actions of the few are ruining it for the vast majority of law abiding nomads. Be reasonable. A criminal can realize great advantage by being constantly mobile so their dirty deeds don't catch up tith them. To not see this potential is stupid.

 

[RoadStar66]

The campaign against the homeless, including in Seattle is in full swing. Anyone parking in an "industrial" zone is seen by the public, media, law enforcement and politicians as "homeless" and they have it in for you and are taking actions to make you be gone.

For example: Seattle is Dying video

4,500,000 views

And the same author has posted a video for LA:
Paradise Lost: Homeless in Los Angeles

Published June 18, 2019
half a million views

The media can influence people's vote and it can influence their attitudes towards minority groups - including nomadics.

 

[jeanmarie]

You really need stop equating nomads with fulltime rv/van city dwellers. Your "war on the homeless" is not a war on nomads. There are millions of acres of national forests and BLM land you can move around on where no one will bother you as long as you move when you are supposed to and don't trash the place. There are thousands of cheap rv parks if you need them. There are also country roads and side streets and rest stops for nomads. But if you want to squat long term (or permanently) on city streets or in front on people's houses and businesses or in private parking lots or on public beaches or in prime tourist areas for free, while you mooch resources off taxpayers and residents, what do you expect to happen?

 

[Qxxx]

Exactly correct. +1.

As mentioned on another thread, the RV industry is worth over $100 billion a year, and RVers are the classic modern day nomads. There are many millions of RV nomads, and they should not be put in the same bucket as people squatting on city streets. Their lifestyle is perfectly legal, and no one in gommint is going to destroy a $100 billion industry. This year so far, I've spent 15 weeks traveling in non-city areas of AZ, CA, NV, OR, WA, MT, and ID, and all I've seen are people enjoying their lives.

 

[WalkaboutTed]

"You really need stop equating nomads with fulltime rv/van city dwellers. Your "war on the homeless" is not a war on nomads. There are millions of acres of national forests and BLM land you can move around on where no one will bother you as long as you move when you are supposed to and don't trash the place."

You are wrong on both counts.
1) By federal government regulations, you are classified as homeless if you have no fixed, land-based abode, if your vehicle is your shelter. We may look at ourselves as "houseless", not homeless, but the latter is legally what we are. Doesn't matter if you're a nomad or a city dweller. No distinction.

2) In more popular BLM or Natl Forest dispersed camping areas, if you admit that you are a full-timer, you can be kicked out in 20 minutes, much less 14 days. The Man's rationale is that these are recreational areas and that if you live fulltime in your vehicle, then you are "living" on federal lands.

Of course any laws are selectively enforced. You sually won't see full-timers living in a million dollar Class A kicked out for the above reasons. And many of the laws don't get enforced unless someone complains or you're being an ass in some way.
Ted

 

[lenny flank]

Once again the tinfoil is getting pretty thick in here.

 

[Qxxx]

"By federal government regulations, you are classified as homeless ...."

Can you actually back up this statement with facts?

"if you admit that you are a full-timer, you can be kicked out in 20 minutes, much less 14 days."

Can you actually back up this statement with facts?

 

[ckelly78z]

As a business owner, and a home owner, I can honestly say that if I saw someone sleeping in a car/van out in front of my house, or in my business parking lot, I would call the police. I've worked too hard for some random rif-raf to scare people away from entering my store, or to creep around in the dark stalking my daughter.

^^^^THIS is the way most people feel because they fear the unknown, and don't want to take chances with allowing this behavior.

Most of the fine people on this forum would not be part of the problem, and are looking for some understanding as well. This doesn't mean that the average American will be allowing stealth parking on their property any time soon.

 

[RoadStar66]

As a business owner, and a home owner, I can honestly say that if I saw someone sleeping in a car/van out in front of my house, or in my business parking lot, I would call the police. I've worked too hard for some random rif-raf to scare people away from entering my store, or to creep around in the dark stalking my daughter.

^^^^THIS is the way most people feel because they fear the unknown, and don't want to take chances with allowing this behavior.

Most of the fine people on this forum would not be part of the problem, and are looking for some understanding as well. This doesn't mean that the average American will be allowing stealth parking on their property any time soon.

It only takes one incident to send an irate citizen to the city council meeting setting off the storm of fear and hate which results in a series of new laws limiting the rights of both homeless and urban parkers, or rural or wilderness boondockers and what is beginning to be called "residential camping" - staying on public land or in a campground while being employed and returning to the camp to retire for the night. This attitude is probably behind why Bob says the Forest Service is so hard to deal with - dragging their feed or just forgetting about his requests for areas for meet-ups.

 

[RoadStar66]

"By federal government regulations, you are classified as homeless ...."

Can you actually back up this statement with facts?

"if you admit that you are a full-timer, you can be kicked out in 20 minutes, much less 14 days."

Can you actually back up this statement with facts?

Details vary by local. But by reading articles, mostly in local papers, the dissatisfaction with long-term campers just outside their city limits is easy to find. And I have found it and posted it here. Unfortunately it almost all gets taken down by mods. And I'm not going through it every time I have to prove this point. Just google things like 'illegal camping + national forest land' and you'll find plenty to back my assertion.

I'm not saying I agree with this anti-nomadic stand. But someone considering entering this lifestyle needs to know all the facts. And I do see plenty of postings on this forum doing just that.

 

[Matildas mate]

One thing that may be needed is legal advocacy on behalf of vehicle dwellers. For example, voting is a citizen’s right but some places require a street address to register to vote and some cities/towns have refused to accept voter registrations without a bonafide street address. Thus they can not exercise their right to vote.

In one place I have lived, a lawyers’ group challenged this in the courts and won. In that particular place, citizens are now allowed to register to vote by defining their place of residence by using terms such as “on the southeast corner of Main Street and Elm Street.”

 

[RoadStar66]

Exactly correct. +1.

As mentioned on another thread, the RV industry is worth over $100 billion a year, and RVers are the classic modern day nomads. There are many millions of RV nomads, and they should not be put in the same bucket as people squatting on city streets. Their lifestyle is perfectly legal, and no one in gommint is going to destroy a $100 billion industry. This year so far, I've spent 15 weeks traveling in non-city areas of AZ, CA, NV, OR, WA, MT, and ID, and all I've seen are people enjoying their lives.

The RV industry's bread and butter are those who can afford to buy a new model every 10 years. Those living in a 20 year model under a bridge just give the industry a bad name as far as they're concerned. 

I am not putting all RV nomads in the same bucket. But as you may be aware, this is something the media does almost all the time.

The RV manufacturers urge those who they sell RVs to make use of campgrounds and RV parks, not freeway underpasses. There is an economic eco-system of interdependence among the RV makers, sellers, RV parks, repair facilities, as well as public vacation area campgrounds and the eateries, grocery stores, gas stations (big time!) that the RVs and their owners spend their money on.

 

[RoadStar66]

Once again the tinfoil is getting pretty thick in here.

That's a typical refrain when someone has nothing substantive to say but opposes an issue on a gut level. Please try and bring your grievance specifics to the vocal level if you want to contribute positively to the conversation. If something I've said is unreal, unreasonable or impossible, you're free to challenge it.

 

[RoadStar66]

But it is legal. That revolution was already fought and won.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. 



Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

There's a heap of interpretation that goes with that phrase. Pursuing young women to torture, rape and death seems to have made Ted Bundy happy. But it got him the death penalty.

 

[RoadStar66]

Per above, that's why I asked for clarification. You can be a fulltimer without being a nomad and you can be a nomad without being a fulltimer. Or you can be both. The challenges are going to be different.

"You can be a fulltimer without being a nomad"

The only way I see that as possible is if you're "fulltime" in the same place - you never move your RV/van/car you call "home". There aren't many places that let you get away with that - not even in our own driveway or a friend's back 40. Zoning.

 

[RoadStar66]

I am not a believer in the conspiracy theory that Walmart bans overnighting because "Big RV !" doesn't want to lose profits.

Whenever Walmart (or some city government) bans overnighting, they are always excruciatingly clear about why they are doing it, and they always cite the same things: (1) people who park there forever without moving, (2) people who dump their shit (literally) in the parking lot, and (3) people who panhandle everyone in the vicinity.

Anyone who has regularly overnighted at Walmarts can confirm for themselves that these are all routine and regular problems at Walmarts all across the US. It is utterly no surprise to me at all whatsoever that Walmart takes steps to prevent it by kicking everyone out on their ass.

As for whose fault it is, well, that's pretty easy: it is the fault of the people who do one or all of those things. Yes, that is just a small percentage of dwellers. But alas, we ALL get caught in it anyway and end up paying the price too. Just because a small number of us can't stop being shitheads.

C'est la vie.  (shrug)

Your reasons are valid in my view. But sometimes I think it's a new manager at a WalMart that just wants to up the "image" of the store. Or they fear some of the homeless wandering the parking lot scare customers. Old man Walton apparently was the one who wanted the parking lots to be open to overnighters. Mostly I think he had in mind an one night stopover, not an ongoing residency of sorts. But his passing probably meant the end to that sort of benevolence.

 

[rvwandering]

I'm closing this thread. Fear-mongering has no place on the forums. Homeless versus full-time van dwelling is always a hot button issue and just leads to arguments.

RoadStar - you are welcome to start a movement but please start in on your own forum or webpage.